[Park2670]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Jim C.

JIM! Great post! Nice to see youve joined the children here at E90Post

[sirploppy]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

(Something about.. if wishes were horses.. then paupers would ride)

Piggybacks were used on the 335i because no one could GET into the ECU.

The ECU is secured with 2 RSA keys, a 512 bit and a 1024 bit.

It uses a secure Tricore microprocessor.

Well, now the best tuners CAN get into the box.

(I could give you a 3 page post-doc level dissertation on this - only to waste
the next 5 weeks defending it from attack by people - I won't - my time is far
too valuable )

So, I'll just say this and leave it.

A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does.

It will never happen.

End.

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim C.

There are two tuners that I would trust to tune my car. One is Corky Bell, and the other is Jim Conforti.

PLEASE Jim release a flash!

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Jim,
Are you saying that you can't get a quality tune out of a piggyback?
-shiv

Shiv,

I'm not going to go back and forth with you.

read what I said: "A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does."

It cannot.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Jim,
Are you saying that you can't get a quality tune out of a piggyback?
-shiv

He did not. Quality tune for the 335i sounds good ... ... very doable.

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by sirploppy

PLEASE Jim release a flash!

Well, there is no need for the "PLEASE" - but thanks

Yes, we will be releasing one - I certainly don't have one of these things to
keep it stock

[Park2670]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Well, there is no need for the "PLEASE" - but thanks

Yes, we will be releasing one - I certainly don't have one of these things to
keep it stock

I didnt know you kept your cars stock!

[e.n335]

Jim Conforti

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Shiv,

I'm not going to go back and forth with you.

read what I said: "A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does."

It cannot.

I agree Jim. And perhaps you can agree that a reflash cannot do what a good piggyback can. If so, we can go back to work and put an end to this silly debate.

And yes, I still agree that putting a piggyback on top of a reflash is silly if both tunes are coming from different vendors and aren't integrated. FWIW, we've run both a our piggyback and our reflash in many of our higher HP Mitsu Evos. The reflash took care of all the basic injector scaling/latency parameters, rev limits, speed limits, etc,. While the piggyback (which held two toggle-able fuel, boost, and timing offset maps) drove the boost solenoid, provided lean-run protection (in case the methanol jet clogged or fuel pump failed), provided a flat shift feature, etc,.

This whole reflash vs. piggyback debate is futile because most people who take one particular side have next to no first-hand hand experience with good examples of the other option. I can recount many reflashes that simply horrible just as well as others can recount many piggyback applications that were equally bad. What matters is not the hardware used but how it is used. The customers owes it to himself to do his homework and find the option that best suits his particular needs.

shiv

[sambonator]

[Park2670]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Jim Conforti

One of the good reasons to live in Utah

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I agree Jim. And perhaps you can agree that a reflash cannot do what a good piggyback can. If so, we can go back to work and put an end to this silly debate.

Shiv,

There is no "debate"

Please tell me what a piggyback can do that a reflash cannot do?

You can take this to PM if you'd like.

Jim

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Park2670

One of the good reasons to live in Utah

UPS can be very quick .

[RichP]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Jim C.

One of the tuning gods speaks..but I am sure the children on here will think they know better

[Park2670]

Originally Posted by e.n335

UPS can be very quick

UPS cannot deliever a great conversation with him

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by Park2670

UPS cannot deliever a great conversation with him

Or dinner in Las Vegas at Lawry's

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Park2670

UPS cannot deliever a great conversation with him

True

[Park2670]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Or dinner in Las Vegas at Lawry's

I was gonna say that, but worried id get some body saying

But now that youve said it, Vegas was great including dinner, and a limo... Thanks Jim!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Shiv,

There is no "debate"

Please tell me what a piggyback can do that a reflash cannot do?

You can take this to PM if you'd like.

Jim

In the case of the BMW, I'm guessing that a reflashed ECU will not drive additional injectors, control methanol spray, provide active lean-run protection, be realtime user configurable, offer launch control, on-the-fly map switch, be removable with no effects to the flash counter, installable on another car with little or no additional cost, etc,. By no means am I saying that our PROcede does all this right now. But all of it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

To be fair, we did have two boost maps in our Subaru reflash that we were able to toggle back-and-forth (even while driving) by hitting the defoggers switch and WOT switch at the same time. There are cute things that can be done with spare memory and code jumbling. But serious additional features are usually best left to aux. devices, IMHO.

Shiv

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Shiv,

There is no "debate"

Please tell me what a piggyback can do that a reflash cannot do?

You can take this to PM if you'd like.

Jim

If you guys take this to PM, could you at least give us some bullets about what you come up with in terms of differences? I like hearing these discussions, debate between two knowledgeable parties with contending products, are always fun.

Wishful thinking, I know, but I would love to know how a piggy back (ie something on top of the CPU intercepting its’ signal and providing a false one back) could have anything over the CPU (the thing generating the signal in the first place).

Only thing I can see is additional outputs on a piggy back which a reflash could emulate with spare output slots currently going unused, correct???

[WilyB]

Jim C’s flash on our well tuned ‘99M3 is great and Shiv’s piggy back on our otherwise stock 335 is great too.

Jim: did you do the DINAN flash?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

In the case of the BMW, I'm guessing that a reflashed ECU will not drive additional injectors, control methanol spray, provide active lean-run protection, be realtime user configurable, offer launch control, on-the-fly map switch, be removable with no effects to the flash counter, installable on another car with little or no additional cost, etc,. By no means am I saying that our PROcede does all this right now. But all of it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

To be fair, we did have two boost maps in our Subaru reflash that we were able to toggle back-and-forth (even while driving) by hitting the defoggers switch and WOT switch at the same time. There are cute things that can be done with spare memory and code jumbling. But serious additional features are usually best left to aux. devices, IMHO.

Shiv

The big advantages of a piggyback are loadable map's for different tunes, assuming the quality of the tune will be comparable ( longevity & performance ) to an ECU flash.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by e.n335

The big advantages of a piggyback are loadable map's for different tunes, assuming the quality of the tune will be comparable ( longevity & performance ) to an ECU flash.

To be fair, this can theoretically be done with a reflash. There isn't too much stopping tuner from posting multiple encrypted ROM files (for different levels of modifications) on their website while providing the user with a upload device. This has been done in the past. But usually it is keyed to the upload device and additional cost is incurred by the customer.

We have, in the past, emailed ROM files to Subaru and Evo customers for them to upload using borrowed or purchased flash programming cables. Nice but still not as convenient as it can be.

Shiv