[Barat]

I'm not a big poster but have been reading since buying my 335 in Aug 2006.
I've also had v1 since April and v2 since last month.
I'm by no means an expert in tuning (wouldn't even call myself really knowledgeable...just your average car enthusiast) BUT can be a pretty good judge of character.

My 2 cents, just for the heck of it:

Shiv is a very talented tuner AND businessman but by far his greatest competitive advantage in this game is that he knows far more than almost anyone in this forum and he's particulary good at marketing/positioning his product through the use of this knowledge....that is until now...sorry Shiv but it looks like you'll need to step up your game with Jim for one simple reason: he seems to be as knowledgeable as (if not more than) yourself.

Again I love my v2 and have nothing bad to say about Vishnu (ok...the v2 wait was a bitch ), but I could see through some of Shiv's tactics and I think he has met his match (btw I knew nothing of Jim before today...further proof of my "ignorance" in the domain).

btw this is all very entertaining...keep it up guys

[Orb]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim, can you explian what advice this was.

Orb

[demosthenes]

Great thread. Thanks guys. But let's look at "risk vs benefit" for a minute. The benefit everyone wants is better performance; the risk everyone wants to avoid is less reliability.

The most conservative choice is a NA engine like the N52/N51. It yields the best reliability (during and after warranty) but the least performance.

The next choice is a stock N54. There's more risk than a NA engine due to the increased complexity and newness of the new turbo engine, but there are huge gains in power. BMW covers the risk during the warranty period, but after that, you are on your own unless you buy an extended warranty. This is a great choice for most enthusiasts.

The next choice is a Dinan modified N54. Dinan provides more power and they cover the risk during the warranty period, but you are on your own after that unless you extend the warranty. Dinan has been the leader in tuning BMW's for decades, but they don't have the resources to test as thoroughly as BMW. I would GUESS that this choice is a bit risker than stock. This seems like a good choice for enthusiasts that want more power than a stock N54.

The riskiest choice provides the greatest increase in power from other tuners. No one is covering the mods during or after warranty and it's not clear how well these products are tested. This seems like a good choice for enthusiasts that are willing to live on the "bleeding edge" to get the extra power. But they shouldn't be surprised if their cars don't hold up as well over the long term.

So it all depends on how much performance you want and how much risk you are willing to take.

[Calgary Agent]

*subscribed*

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by lawdude

It's a conspiracy.

Just a sign of the times perhaps...

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by Orb

Jim, can you explian what advice this was.

Orb

Pick one tune, i-e don't add Terry's JB½ to the DINAN tune.

[Bubbles]

Jim, can you give us some insight into why in both stock and dinan flashed 335is thee is a drop-off in psi after @6k rpm (11 psi to 7 psi)? Could you explain the mechanics behind it? Thanks

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

It is?

Astris, let me give you a word: libel

I have never sold a "race tune" to ANYONE that I do not personally know is
a racer (with minimum BMW CCA or SCCA ticket) and that I do not personally
know is using said tune for a dedicated racing BMW.

Unless you have direct, first-hand knowledge that I have.. and I can assure
everyone that you DO NOT because I don't sell such tunes.. I'd ZIP IT.

US Law is such that I cannot control what another business does. If I find out
that anyone is selling race tunes for street-operated vehicles. And I find that
out with a high level of provability.. I would dial my friends at CARB and the USEPA myself.

Yeah, FRIENDS.

I explain the law (as best I can) to all of the dealers who sell my products and
to all of the businesses I do "co-development" work with as succinctly as I can.

They can follow the advice and the law, or they can become the next "consent decree".

For better or worse - that is NOT my decision.

When you come to me with a modified 335i, on a trailer, with an SCCA ticket in hand
and a nomex suit - and I'll be HAPPY to add methanol injection.

Until that time, you (and anyone else) get NO nachos.

Can we stop wasting the man's time with stuff like this?

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by demosthenes

Great thread. Thanks guys. But let's look at "risk vs benefit" for a minute. The benefit everyone wants is better performance; the risk everyone wants to avoid is less reliability.

The most conservative choice is a NA engine like the N52/N51. It yields the best reliability (during and after warranty) but the least performance.

The next choice is a stock N54. There's more risk than a NA engine due to the increased complexity and newness of the new turbo engine, but there are huge gains in power. BMW covers the risk during the warranty period, but after that, you are on your own unless you buy an extended warranty. This is a great choice for most enthusiasts.

The next choice is a Dinan modified N54. Dinan provides more power and they cover the risk during the warranty period, but you are on your own after that unless you extend the warranty. Dinan has been the leader in tuning BMW's for decades, but they don't have the resources to test as thoroughly as BMW. I would GUESS that this choice is a bit risker than stock. This seems like a good choice for enthusiasts that want more power than a stock N54.

The riskiest choice provides the greatest increase in power from other tuners. No one is covering the mods during or after warranty and it's not clear how well these products are tested. This seems like a good choice for enthusiasts that are willing to live on the "bleeding edge" to get the extra power. But they shouldn't be surprised if their cars don't hold up as well over the long term.

So it all depends on how much performance you want and how much risk you are willing to take.

Although this seems intuitive, I think others really don’t understand this, great synopsis!

[garyhgaryh]

Originally Posted by stillclaimndp

Calling the kettle black.

Don't get me wrong you're an extremely smart person and I am sure you are good at what you do. I just don't think your approach to tuning is scalable or reasonable for any after market tuner and I will say once again that I haven't seen any evidence that Dinan has out tested Vishnu, but instead the opposite.

I would like to know exact what Dinan has done when they try to convince people they have done more testing than Vishnu. It's a valid question and not an attack on Dinan. Can we get specifics? How do you validate such claims?

Gary

[b18b1ex]

Originally Posted by garyhgaryh

I would like to know exact what Dinan has done when they try to convince people they have done more testing than Vishnu. It's a valid question and not an attack on Dinan. Can we get specifics? How do you validate such claims?

Gary

I don't think you understand, in their almost 30 years of existence tuning BMW products do you think they have a better idea of how BMW engines function, you don't think they have at least an informal relationship with BMW, why are they offering a flash for an ECU that most can't crack, you can see that some information sharing is most likely going on. If I were you I'd be questioning who all these other guys (not JIM) that are claiming to be on par with Dinan, and where their testing data is, again beating on one or two cars and saying nothing broke yet, is not failure analysis.

Just my opinion but anyone who thinks these piggyback tuners are on par with DINAN is smoking something special! I'm not saying the are not good at what they have created, they are just not on the same level period.

As for the meth injection and additional injectors who the hell is going to put that stuff on their car, probably 90% of them are leased and of the other 10% how many will actually do this, it is totally irrelevant, and a useless discussion.

Also I asked this before and got no answer, what happens when your leased 335 has it's warranty voided for having one of these tunes? Do you then have to purchase your leased car? That would suck.

Again just my opinion, but I'm sure other feel the same. As others have said proceed at your own risk, and save some $$$$$$ you may need it.

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by b18b1ex

Also I asked this before and got no answer, what happens when your leased 335 has it's warranty voided for having one of these tunes? Do you then have to purchase your leased car? That would suck.

I applaud your unadulterated anxiety for your fellow e90posters' finances.

[b18b1ex]

Originally Posted by WilyB

I applaud your unadulterated anxiety for your fellow e90posters' finances.

I was just wondering, it would be a hell of an unexpected bill, some probably just say F**k it but for some it could be an issue. But seriously would one be now required to purchase, because BMW could not resell the car as certified preowned.

It's a real question, there is a guy here who blew his Audi tranny at a track here in FL, and was unlucky enough to have the AOA rep there when it was brought in, she promptly took pics and recorded the vin and canceled his powertrain warranty because of all of his mods. So it does happen.

[garyhgaryh]

Originally Posted by b18b1ex

I don't think you understand, in their almost 30 years of existence tuning BMW products do you think they have a better idea of how BMW engines function, you don't think they have at least an informal relationship with BMW, why are they offering a flash for an ECU that most can't crack, you can see that some information sharing is most likely going on. If I were you I'd be questioning who all these other guys (not JIM) that are claiming to be on par with Dinan, and where their testing data is, again beating on one or two cars and saying nothing broke yet, is not failure analysis.

Just my opinion but anyone who thinks these piggyback tuners are on par with DINAN is smoking something special! I'm not saying the are not good at what they have created, they are just not on the same level period.

As for the meth injection and additional injectors who the hell is going to put that stuff on their car, probably 90% of them are leased and of the other 10% how many will actually do this, it is totally irrelevant, and a useless discussion.

Also I asked this before and got no answer, what happens when your leased 335 has it's warranty voided for having one of these tunes? Do you then have to purchase your leased car? That would suck.

Again just my opinion, but I'm sure other feel the same. As others have said proceed at your own risk, and save some $$$$$$ you may need it.

If this is the case, then lets hear it (what extra test has dinan completed that is above and over Shiv's)? It's a valid question.

My car is already purchased, not leased.

[demosthenes]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

Although this seems intuitive, I think others really don’t understand this, great synopsis!

Thanks KWA VaTech. I've learned the hard way what many other engineers have said - that proper testing is extremely difficult. No matter how solid a design looks on paper or in a computer simulation, it's an unsubstantiated theory until exhaustive testing is done. Excellent designs minimize problems, but it is virtually impossible to eliminate all problems given the complexity and the time and budget constraints engineers face. Just think how hard it would be just to develop a good test plan for a modified N54 that is affordable and not take years to execute.

[baltik]

Originally Posted by b18b1ex

I don't think you understand, in their almost 30 years of existence tuning BMW products do you think they have a better idea of how BMW engines function, you don't think they have at least an informal relationship with BMW, why are they offering a flash for an ECU that most can't crack, you can see that some information sharing is most likely going on. If I were you I'd be questioning who all these other guys (not JIM) that are claiming to be on par with Dinan, and where their testing data is, again beating on one or two cars and saying nothing broke yet, is not failure analysis.

Just my opinion but anyone who thinks these piggyback tuners are on par with DINAN is smoking something special! I'm not saying the are not good at what they have created, they are just not on the same level period.

As for the meth injection and additional injectors who the hell is going to put that stuff on their car, probably 90% of them are leased and of the other 10% how many will actually do this, it is totally irrelevant, and a useless discussion.

Also I asked this before and got no answer, what happens when your leased 335 has it's warranty voided for having one of these tunes? Do you then have to purchase your leased car? That would suck.

Again just my opinion, but I'm sure other feel the same. As others have said proceed at your own risk, and save some $$$$$$ you may need it.

Sorry I have to call BS here, Dinan is relatively inexperienced in turbo cars, 2002 was produced a long time ago, while they may be more familiar with the BMW block one can easily argue that wouuldn't translate to FI tuning expertise. The original's posters point is still very valid - what are the Dinan testing procedutres? are they pulling blocks from cars and performing full bench testing and stress analysis? are they dyno tuning or driving around with an 02 sensor and a laptop? What you said above may or may not be true but you failed to provide any shred of evidence beyond "It's Dinan, it must be better"

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by demosthenes

Thanks KWA VaTech. I've learned the hard way what many other engineers have said - that proper testing is extremely difficult. No matter how solid a design looks on paper or in a computer simulation, it's an unsubstantiated theory until exhaustive testing is done. Excellent designs minimize problems, but it is virtually impossible to eliminate all problems given the complexity and the time and budget constraints engineers face. Just think how hard it would be just to develop a good test plan for a modified N54 that is affordable and not take years to execute.

I agree but, also think the opposite is true. If you only test your product without research and development you will never truly know what you are challenging in the engine and to what degree. This becomes very important when your test cars are limited, no long term testing has been done, and you start releasing your product to the public.

But, that’s just my 2 cents

In my line a business, it’s often impractical to build a model thus, R&D is solely relied on. Modeling may be a scientific guess. But, if the science is good a fairly accurate portrayal of conditions are generally produced. By building in conservatism a full scale product can be built with little to no prior test.

Originally Posted by baltik

Sorry I have to call BS here, Dinan is relatively inexperienced in turbo cars, 2002 was produced a long time ago, while they may be more familiar with the BMW block one can easily argue that wouuldn't translate to FI tuning expertise. The original's posters point is still very valid - what are the Dinan testing procedutres? are they pulling blocks from cars and performing full bench testing and stress analysis? are they dyno tuning or driving around with an 02 sensor and a laptop? What you said above may or may not be true but you failed to provide any shred of evidence beyond "It's Dinan, it must be better"

and on the flip side, you know for a fact that the current piggy backs are not doing this

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by garyhgaryh

If this is the case, then lets hear it (what extra test has dinan completed that is above and over Shiv's)? It's a valid question.

My car is already purchased, not leased.

I've asked this question a few of times as well. I don't think I've gotten an actual answer.

Shiv

[b18b1ex]

Originally Posted by baltik

Sorry I have to call BS here, Dinan is relatively inexperienced in turbo cars, 2002 was produced a long time ago, while they may be more familiar with the BMW block one can easily argue that wouuldn't translate to FI tuning expertise. The original's posters point is still very valid - what are the Dinan testing procedutres? are they pulling blocks from cars and performing full bench testing and stress analysis? are they dyno tuning or driving around with an 02 sensor and a laptop? What you said above may or may not be true but you failed to provide any shred of evidence beyond "It's Dinan, it must be better"

While you call BS, tell me how long has Dinan been supercharging BMW engines? "No experience with forced induction" Really? Oh and how much of the current n54 motor is based on the previous in line 6's? Are you seriously trying to compare these companies?

[b18b1ex]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I've asked this question a few of times as well. I don't think I've gotten an actual answer.

Shiv

You really think you are on par with Dinan? Come on, no propaganda, no bs, I won't tell anyone, really? In what world? certainly not this one, you don't have the resources and certainly not the pedigree. You really should just admit it you will gain more . I don't know you or am I bashing your products just pointing out facts.

[JackMac]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Piss, I have a crappy sense of humor. Whatever happened to some of the really clever posters? The guys with 325s and 330s. They're to blame for my E90Post addiction, and now that we need them to lighten up the tuner wars, they're gone. We 335 owners are a humorless bunch of Vogons and fire ants, and we bullied the other hapless E9x owners off these forums.

Carry the torch, doc!

Some be joining the dark side in MY09. Without pointless tunes, however.

[b18b1ex]

BTW the one who takes the biggest risks will always make the most power! If you have no regard for the possible limitations who can compete with the power numbers, some people want safe and longevity, others not so much.