[mnguyen]

Greetings from Madison, Wisconsin!

Before I start asking, I would like to to make it clear that I am very very new to BMW, and car-related stuff. Before my 2011 BMW 328xi, I owned a 1999 Camry and everything that I did was oil change, re-fueling and getting on the road (which unfortunately will not be the case with my BMW). Therefore, please pardon me if some of my questions do not make any sense to you guys.

I bought my 2011 BMW 328xi two months ago at 36300 miles and I have absolutely loved driving it so far. After a road trip this weekend, the clock reached 38000 miles and I started to think about what will happen when I reach 50000 miles. So I made friend with Google and searched for everything that I could. However, there must be a good reason for this forum to exist! Below are my questions.

1. Warranty: My local dealer offers $3100 for 60mt/100k miles platinum. I also read the BMW old school maintenance guide of Mike Miller, which recommends replacing certain items at certain milestones. Will it cost more than $3100 to replace everything that Mike mentions from 50k to 100k miles? How expensive will it be to fix minor things that are not mentioned in Mike's guide (like window buttons not working, door locks not working)?

2. I also read a maintenance guide here that mentions services like BMW Oil & Safety Services, Inspection I and Inspection II. When I look up all services offered at my local dealer, I could not find those. Do we have different terms or names that dealers use nowadays? Will my dealer understand what I want if I bring my car in and say that I want to have a BMW Oil & Safety service performed on my car?

3. The only thing that has bugged me so far is that when my car is idle, the engine sometimes stumbles. This happens more frequently when it is cold, and right after an automatic car wash. Last time I took my car in, they found a bad coil and replaced it. However, the stumbling still persists. Any ideas on what may cause this problem?

4. If anyone happens to live in Madison, how good is our local dealer? They have been pretty nice so far. Do you recommend any indy shops in Madison?

Thank you very much for reading!

[floydarogers]

Don't confuse maintenance with warranty. The Platinum Warranty fixes things if they break - it doesn't pay for maintenance, which is what Mike Miller is all about.

Given that, Miller's list is extremely aggressive and some of his things are outdated (even he accedes that.) Inspection I & II are old things before the onset of BMW's Condition Based Service (CBS). The car calls for service items when needed (or at least that's the theory.) In the old days, you did an Inspection II every 30K miles, where you essentially did all the maintenance required. Now you might do the brake fluid one month, oil change the next, and a/c microfilter the next.

[mnguyen]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Don't confuse maintenance with warranty. The Platinum Warranty fixes things if they break - it doesn't pay for maintenance, which is what Mike Miller is all about.

Given that, Miller's list is extremely aggressive and some of his things are outdated (even he accedes that.) Inspection I & II are old things before the onset of BMW's Condition Based Service (CBS). The car calls for service items when needed (or at least that's the theory.) In the old days, you did an Inspection II every 30K miles, where you essentially did all the maintenance required. Now you might do the brake fluid one month, oil change the next, and a/c microfilter the next.

I am aware of the differences between warranty and maintenance. But there are a lot overlaps between the warranty program and Mike's guide. For example, in Mike's guide, he recommends replacing water pump, spark plugs, drive belt, etc. and as far as I know, those items will be covered under warranty if they break.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

I am aware of the differences between warranty and maintenance. But there are a lot overlaps between the warranty program and Mike's guide. For example, in Mike's guide, he recommends replacing water pump, spark plugs, drive belt, etc. and as far as I know, those items will be covered under warranty if they break.

The key is "if they break". After 4/50K, the free maintenance goes away. Then you have to pay for spark plugs (which are 100K items on the N52 btw), serpentine belt, etc. Miller has backed away from wholesale water pump replacement at 60K, partly because the ECU shuts down the engine to prevent damage, and partly because they're $500 items.

Not much breaks in the first 4/50K. Heck, not much breaks on N52 engines.

[mnguyen]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

The key is "if they break". After 4/50K, the free maintenance goes away. Then you have to pay for spark plugs (which are 100K items on the N52 btw), serpentine belt, etc. Miller has backed away from wholesale water pump replacement at 60K, partly because the ECU shuts down the engine to prevent damage, and partly because they're $500 items.

Not much breaks in the first 4/50K. Heck, not much breaks on N52 engines.

Yup. The key here is "if they break". So is it better to purchase the extended warranty and have the dealer fix things when they break or to keep the money and replace things preventively?

Also, do we have any guides for maintenance stuff on those N52? I will definitely change the oil and the oil filter every 7500 miles, air filters every 15000 miles.

What about the brake fluid? power steering fluid? Differential oils? and ATF?

I am planning on changing the brake fluid once a year, power steering fluid and differential oil every 30000 miles, ATF when I reach 60000 miles. Are these reasonable?

[Efthreeoh]

Miller's maintenance guide is way over kill - and great if you own an airplane (standing joke around here...). That level of maintenance is what earned BMW its reputation for high cost of ownership and one reason why the service intervals have lengthened and become prepaid (Free - LOL) at the time of purchase. I've followed the CBS schedule and driveline fluid changes at 100,000 intervals for my car. I'm currently running very well at 275,000 miles. Oils, materials, engine design, and closer manufacturing tolerances have improved and allow extended maintenance intervals past those of cars built in the 1970s and '80s, where Miller gets his requirements from. Changing an electric-driven water pump on a N52 prior to when it provides codes of failure is a waste of money and no guarantee that the new pump is any less prone to failure. I've changed the power steering fluid at 151K and again at 265K, and I think I probably strained the pump and rack more because of air in the system before it bled out rather than just leaving the fluid in there - I think changing the PS fluid every 30K would damage the system more than save it. No official BMW maintenance schedule has ever called for power steering fluid changes. I did all the hoses a year ago and did not replace the original radiator (Miller would have you do otherwise); the hoses were in fine shape and probably didn't need replacement at that time. The common stuff that breaks on these cars is the water pump, t-stat, valve cover bolts and gaskets, the out-side head bolt (i.e. not under the valve cover), HVAC blower motor, and the OFHG - all of which are not affected by maintenance levels and only to do with build quality. You may pick up the driveline kink noise at the diff, which is a spline lube issue, and squeaky brakes (again neither preventable by maintenance).

Spend less money on over-maintenance and more on diagnostic tools (BMW and OBDII scan tools) and automotive tools (get a Motive power bleeder for the brakes and an pneumatic oil extractor for the diff - oh, and get a good long-saddle jack and 4 high quality jack stands too) to keep track of the car's condition and maintain it. Changing the engine airfilter at 15,000 mile intervals is a complete waste of money/time unless the car is driven in extremely dusty conditions. 45K - 50K is industry standard for air filter changes for modern cars. Save the money for when things break. If you think you'll get more resale value from the car because you tripled-up on maintenance, you'll be disappointed to find that even if someone really cares, the few extra hundreds he'll pay for the car is far less than the additional cost of the maintenance. There are plenty (multiples) of DIYs on the Forum for any of the basic maintenance items, and repair DIYs for the common failures of the E90.

I've taken three cars well past 200,000 miles (all bought new) and at least five cars past 120,000 miles, and I've only followed the manufacturer's maintenance schedules. I've driven my E90 275,000 miles in 8.5 years; about 3 times the normal yearly average. I've driven it quite hard too so it is not all "highway" miles. There are several of us N52'ers with 200K+ miles on here and none of us have done the level of maintenance you are contemplating. If you drive 12,000 miles a year it will take you 23 years to reach that level of mileage, do you really think you'll keep your car another 21 years? I doubt it. You need to understand that there are other parts of the car that simply wear out because of mileage and time, which are not preventable by preventive maintenance. Wheel bearings are one, the drive shaft is another, AC system, HVAC blower (I'm ready for my second one), suspension components, etc. Replacing these items when the car has reached high mileage is expensive and requires evaluation to determine if the car is beyond economical repair, meaning is the cost of the repair more than the value of the car. So your tripled-up maintenance regimen will have done you no good in that instance and left you with a car that may have a bit less worn engine, diff and trans (than if normally maintained) but a trashed electric system, for instance, that will cost more than the car is worth to repair.

My 2 cents...

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

...I am planning on changing the brake fluid once a year, power steering fluid and differential oil every 30000 miles, ATF when I reach 60000 miles. Are these reasonable?

Brake fluid is a CBS item, and is every two years. PS and diff every 30K is reasonable, but note that it's harder because there is no drain plug on the diff. ATF @ 60K is what I did (BMW says 100K) and what Miller recommends.
I'd also flush the radiator at 30K, maybe.

[mnguyen]

Efthreeoh: Thank you very much for such an eye-opening post. I do not have a garage so I am not leaning towards doing a lot of stuff on my own but it is definitely something for me to keep in mind. So do you recommend purchasing the extended warranty or keeping the money in my pocket and using it when needed?

floydarogers: Thank you!

[Efthreeoh]

Extended warranties are always to the benefit of the Seller, not the Purchaser. Be careful of what they cover and don't cover. Since I'm a DIYe'r I can't really give any advice since I'd never consider one.

[mnguyen]

Efthreeoh, so besides the water pump failure, what else could potentially leave me stranded?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

Efthreeoh, so besides the water pump failure, what else could potentially leave me stranded?

Not much else will leave you stranded with these cars. All the other common issues are annoyances that need to be repaired as the happen. You could lose a coil or two (I never have) but that will just throw a Service Engine Soon light.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

Efthreeoh: Thank you very much for such an eye-opening post. I do not have a garage so I am not leaning towards doing a lot of stuff on my own but it is definitely something for me to keep in mind. So do you recommend purchasing the extended warranty or keeping the money in my pocket and using it when needed?

floydarogers: Thank you!

Well if you are not planning the DIY the maintenance schedule you are contemplating, then you'd really be spending money unnecessarily. Changing the diff oil at 30,000 is unnecessary, as is the trans fluid (not sure if you have a manual or automatic). You need to plan on how long you want to keep this car and maintain it accordingly. I've shown the BMW schedule is adequate to get to 275K quite easily. But each situation is different (hence the condition based service system). I drive my car in an ideal situation where it gets constant use and is a mix of low stress use and high stress use (me driving the piss out of it on the back roads of Central Virginia). A car that constantly sees NYC-levels of abuse (traffic and shitty streets) would obviously require a different maintenance schedule. I'd imagine that life in Madison is a bit more of what my car has experienced. If you want to get 500,000 miles out of your car then maybe your contemplated maintenance plan might help you there, but maybe, nor for sure. But it takes a real long time to get to that level of mileage for an average person, and 99.9% of owners want to get a new car far before that level of mileage is reached.

[mnguyen]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well if you are not planning the DIY the maintenance schedule you are contemplating, then you'd really be spending money unnecessarily. Changing the diff oil at 30,000 is unnecessary, as is the trans fluid (not sure if you have a manual or automatic). You need to plan on how long you want to keep this car and maintain it accordingly. I've shown the BMW schedule is adequate to get to 275K quite easily. But each situation is different (hence the condition based service system). I drive my car in an ideal situation where it gets constant use and is a mix of low stress use and high stress use (me driving the piss out of it on the back roads of Central Virginia). A car that constantly sees NYC-levels of abuse (traffic and shitty streets) would obviously require a different maintenance schedule. I'd imagine that life in Madison is a bit more of what my car has experienced. If you want to get 500,000 miles out of your car then maybe your contemplated maintenance plan might help you there, but maybe, nor for sure. But it takes a real long time to get to that level of mileage for an average person, and 99.9% of owners want to get a new car far before that level of mileage is reached.

My plan is keeping it around until it hits 150k miles or requires too many repairs. I will say I am an easy-going driver and do not often do hard acceleration as well as hard stop. Driving in Madison is definitely not too bad, mostly highway, some stop-and-go traffic. My car is an automatic (I read your very interesting and true quote in your signature, though )

So I think based on your advice, I should just follow the recommended schedule from BMW, right?

How much money should I set aside for repairs (I know it is hard to guestimate as you are a DIY'er)? I have lost a coil already (they fixed it but the car still stumbles occasionally at stop) ... I am still really debating about purchasing the extended warranty.

Thank you.

[AdamN52]

As the owner of an older-ish BMW ('07 328xi) this would be my advice:
Skip the extended warranty. Put a couple grand away for repairs once your factory warranty expires.
Fix stuff when (and if) it breaks - not before; you can make owning a car really expensive if you start replacing parts just for 'piece of mind'

My average repair & maintenance costs over the past 3 years has been about $1,300 (CAD) per year.
Keep in mind I do my own repairs barring something that requires proper shop equipment.

So that cost includes things like fluid changes, brakes, a battery, a blower motor, leaky gaskets, washer fluid, two sets of tires (1 summer & 1 snow), air filters, wiper blades, one coil, 6 spark plugs and I recently had a ball joint go bad. Took it to a shop for that one.

If you plan to keep the car for like 5 years I'd plan my budget to include at least one set of tires, one full brake job, 2 oil changes per year, maybe trans/diff fluids once, and a new VCG (chances are it will leak eventually - expensive if done by a shop). Then set some cash aside for miscellaneous BS that wears out like sensors, bushings, gaskets, bulbs, coils.

Hope that is helpful in some way - It's easy to get carried away reading about things that are 'certain' to break when on these forums... but at the end of the day no one comes on a forum to update everyone on their water pump still working

[mnguyen]

Thank you, Adam.

So to sum up, I should
1. Change oil every 7500 miles
2. Follow everything on CBS (what about items that are not tracked by the CBS?)
3. Save up money

Am I missing anything?

[Vin328IX]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

Thank you, Adam.

So to sum up, I should
1. Change oil every 7500 miles
2. Follow everything on CBS (what about items that are not tracked by the CBS?)
3. Save up money

Am I missing anything?

You have a good car, low miles and a mind set that you sound proactive on caring for the car but like others stated look at the maintenance schedule from BMW and make your judgment when you feel comfortable completing those services. I personally think you are jumping the gun and thinking about this way to early in ownership. Enjoy it for a few more miles and make sure you feel your purchase was a good one.

[mnguyen]

Thanks Vin! Just want to make sure that my ownership will be a long-lasting and perfect one

[mnguyen]

Guys,

So a few problems happened for me.

1. The engine sputters at idle/slow speed when it is not fully warmed up. It also does that when I make a really sharp turn at slow speed. It is most noticeable right after a car wash including under-carriage wash. Last time washing it, I shifted from N to D and its rpm meter needle jumped up and down crazily.

2. I found out that my car was in an accident. No frame damage/airbag deployment reported on CarFax. I took to CarMax for an appraisal and they said they would buy it for $23000 (I would lose $3000).

Should I sell it and get another one?

Thanks!

[AdamN52]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

Guys,

So a few problems happened for me.

1. The engine sputters at idle/slow speed when it is not fully warmed up. It also does that when I make a really sharp turn at slow speed. It is most noticeable right after a car wash including under-carriage wash. Last time washing it, I shifted from N to D and its rpm meter needle jumped up and down crazily.

2. I found out that my car was in an accident. No frame damage/airbag deployment reported on CarFax. I took to CarMax for an appraisal and they said they would buy it for $23000 (I would lose $3000).

Should I sell it and get another one?

Thanks!

Man, that's a shitty thing to have happen. Where did you buy it from? Private sale, or a from dealer?

If a dealer didn't disclose the accident it to you, I'd go back and give them shit for it. I'm sure they would check the vehicle history on every car they acquire.

Private sale, I'm not sure if there's any recourse. You'd have to check the laws in your area, I guess.

In my opinion I don't know if it's worth selling the car to buy another... you've already lost the equity from the accident, so by selling it you're just losing the money you paid. I guess if you don't know what was repaired, or how it was repaired that thought might sit in the back of your mind... maybe just get it inspected to make sure there's nothing obviously amiss?

[mnguyen]

It was a private sale. I was so dumb for not checking the history, since the car drove and felt so good.

I have an appointment with the local dealer on next monday for problem 1. Should I ask them to inspect it? Are there any chances that they will void my warranty?

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by mnguyen

...Are there any chances that they will void my warranty?

No. Even if you and the previous owner didn't follow the transfer proceedure, they will honor it.

[mnguyen]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

No. Even if you and the previous owner didn't follow the transfer proceedure, they will honor it.

Even if the car was in an accident before?