[Jules6]

Reading all of this I think that it's amazing

Let's not start on the dangers of the sport button on the M3

[- Paul -]

Originally Posted by Jules6

Reading all of this I think that it's amazing

Let's not start on the dangers of the sport button on the M3

What does it do on the M3? - on mine it makes the revs higher - gear change quicker and stiffens the ARB.

[A335i]

My point about being irresponsible is that there are many people I would assume who are naive in the sense that they do not fully understand their car or it's potential. I don't mean that in an offensive way but as an honest comment, because I admit myself I don't think I know the full potential and limits on my own car.


When I first purchased my 335i I was young, inexperienced and very naive. Not proud to say those things about myself, however, people like me do exist. I once read a thread when I first purchased my car, similar to this but more about how much fun disabling the traction system is when driving. Whether, it was in the context of a track day I do not know, I just saw disable traction equals fun. So off I went took all the traction system off and for a week or so that was the way I was driving the car in the middle of January. And let me tell you it was fun !!!. Then one day, being too heavy footed, due to inexperience, I actually realised the full power of the car when it decides to go mental, and trust me it went psycho without the aid of traction system. Even to this day my girlfriend who was in the car with me even states how lucky we are to be alive and that's no exaggeration.


Therefore, looking back if someone in the same situation and mentality as me bought a 335i or any other powerful RWD car, did a search on this forum about traction, this page came up and people saying disabling your traction system entirely is alright, it's fun, just make sure your responsible and you don’t need much talent to control it what do think is going to happen ?. They are going to go out, obviously not thinking their irresponsible at all, and rag the sh!t out of the car like I did. Note I am talking from my experience, driving with all traction system off with the of power of a remapped 335i, this being my second car having passed my test 2 years and first experience of a RWD car. For all I know if I had a 2 litre, I’d probably not be posting about the dangers of taking off traction.


Everyone’s knowledge, level and ability is different primarily based on experience. Therefore if a very skilled driver on here, who’s never had any problems and know’s thoroughly how to handle RWD cars with no traction system posts it’s fine to take off the traction on a road just be responsible i think it’s important also to highlight the dangers, which some people have been doing and it seems they are getting slated for it. However, this piece of information is very crucial to the less skilled, inexperienced and naive members on this forum. Some people do just read these forums for advice and don’t post.


Therefore, due to my experience and way of thinking, I am just posting that it is irresponsible and unsafe to fully disable your traction control if you do not know the potential of your car because you can get yourself into severe unwanted situations like I did, especially if your naive, young and inexperienced and have a powerful RWD car.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

My point about being irresponsible is that there are many people I would assume who are naive in the sense that they do not fully understand their car or it's potential. I don't mean that in an offensive way but as an honest comment, because I admit myself I don't think I know the full potential and limits on my own car.


When I first purchased my 335i I was young, inexperienced and very naive. Not proud to say those things about myself, however, people like me do exist. I once read a thread when I first purchased my car, similar to this but more about how much fun disabling the traction system is when driving. Whether, it was in the context of a track day I do not know, I just saw disable traction equals fun. So off I went took all the traction system off and for a week or so that was the way I was driving the car in the middle of January. And let me tell you it was fun !!!. Then one day, being too heavy footed, due to inexperience, I actually realised the full power of the car when it decides to go mental, and trust me it went psycho without the aid of traction system. Even to this day my girlfriend who was in the car with me even states how lucky we are to be alive and that's no exaggeration.

The car didn't go psycho. You drove it beyond it's limits and lost control. Your fault and responsibility 100%. It was your judgement to turn off the traction control and your decision to rag the car around with it off.

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

Therefore, looking back if someone in the same situation and mentality as me bought a 335i or any other powerful RWD car, did a search on this forum about traction, this page came up and people saying disabling your traction system entirely is alright, it's fun, just make sure your responsible and you don’t need much talent to control it what do think is going to happen ?. They are going to go out, obviously not thinking their irresponsible at all, and rag the sh!t out of the car like I did.

So you would ignore the bit about being responsible and "rag the shit out of the car" instead? It doesn't really matter what anyone writes if you are just going to ignore it.

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

Note I am talking from my experience, driving with all traction system off with the of power of a remapped 335i, this being my second car having passed my test 2 years and first experience of a RWD car. For all I know if I had a 2 litre, I’d probably not be posting about the dangers of taking off traction.

Everyone’s knowledge, level and ability is different primarily based on experience. Therefore if a very skilled driver on here, who’s never had any problems and know’s thoroughly how to handle RWD cars with no traction system posts it’s fine to take off the traction on a road just be responsible i think it’s important also to highlight the dangers, which some people have been doing and it seems they are getting slated for it. However, this piece of information is very crucial to the less skilled, inexperienced and naive members on this forum. Some people do just read these forums for advice and don’t post.

The 'danger' comes from 'ragging the shit out of the car' not from switching off the traction control. I've said several times that you should drive appropriately. Do people really need to say "if you drive like a maniac you might crash'?

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

Therefore, due to my experience and way of thinking, I am just posting that it is irresponsible and unsafe to fully disable your traction control if you do not know the potential of your car because you can get yourself into severe unwanted situations like I did, especially if your naive, young and inexperienced and have a powerful RWD car.

You won't loose control of you car unless you drive too quickly for road conditions. DSC might save you from a crash, but frankly the point I've been making right through this thread is that we are all 100% responsible for our own actions. If you switch off your traction control then you need to consider the possible consequences. It's not down to other people to point that out.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by NFS

DSC might save you from a crash, but frankly the point I've been making right through this thread is that we are all 100% responsible for our own actions. If you switch off your traction control then you need to consider the possible consequences.

Isn't that exactly what many of us have been saying ? "Know exactly what switching off any saftey systems physically entails and take care."

Originally Posted by NFS

It's not down to other people to point that out.

Apart from you contradicting that statement to tell us, why not ?

If it helps, along with what ajuggessur posted, to make someone that is considering switching off all the aids for the first time for a bit of fun, to hesitate and think a little more deeply - it was more than worth it.

In any situation, if I see someone doing something where they could get seriously hurt, I'll say something - regardless of the response I'll get back. Not just quietly turn away.

Your "hell mend them, if they are so stupid - I'm not saying anything" entrenched attitude does nothing.

D.

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by NFS

The car didn't go psycho. You drove it beyond it's limits and lost control. Your fault and responsibility 100%. It was your judgement to turn off the traction control and your decision to rag the car around with it off.

People should really understand what they are turning off and its implications. His comments made about turning off those driving aids are good points which could inform the less experienced/ naive driver reading forums and watching Jeremy clarkson turning off the "Traction Control for more fun."

His only fault was to "NOT know at the time, what were the implications of turning off the DSC"...but fair play to him, to tell us about his experience.

I still maintain though that DSC shouldn't be on a 335 or any other powerful sports car!...as people don't buy a 335 engine for the leather or the idrive....The DSC does limit the power and makes the 335 lose its "powerful RWD" character to some extent.


The implications (both positive and negative) of switching off the drivers' aid should be understood by all before they press the button.

But ultimately, as the drivers, they should be solely responsible!
Not the powerful RWD oversteering BMW....

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by NFS

You won't loose control of you car unless you drive too quickly for road conditions.

"driving too quickly" won't make you necessarily lose control!

It depends how gentle you are with the throttle and position of the steering wheel, weather and road conditions etc...

I might be driving fast, but if I know how to apply the throttle when cornering then I won't lose control! (even with the shit potenza runflats!!!)

I might be driving "at an average/ normal speed" but if in wet conditions, pressing the gas pedal quickly might lead the car to do a 180!!!...

I will always remember that incident when I was in the Mitsubishi Shogun with my cousin. Wet road conditions, at roundabout, low speed at roundabout, all of a sudden he lost control and the car did a 180 degree turn and we were facing the other side we just came from!!!!....luckily there was no cars around....

I was really surprised how he managed to do that at such a slow speed !!!.... bloody hell, it was like in a Fast n Furious movie! I asked him what the hell did he do??? ....slick tires? hand brakes? tuned engine? lsd? drifting lessons? hollywood aided technology shit?...nope, not rocket science!

he was driving quite slowly... so all he did was to press the gas pedal (and he didn't even floor it, he doesn't like to drive fast and is tight on petrol btw) but because the Gearbox was on 2 wheel drive (RWD), the shogun having a powerful engine and the wet condition, it lead to a 180 turn....

Seeing a car doing a 180 with such ease!!! I still believe that people don't really know or understand the potential of losing control with a powerful RWD car!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Isn't that exactly what many of us have been saying ? "Know exactly what switching off any saftey systems physically entails and take care."

It's what I have been saying all along. It's also what BMW say in the manual.

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Apart from you contradicting that statement to tell us, why not ?

If it helps, along with what ajuggessur posted, to make someone that is considering switching off all the aids for the first time for a bit of fun, to hesitate and think a little more deeply - it was more than worth it.

In any situation, if I see someone doing something where they could get seriously hurt, I'll say something - regardless of the response I'll get back. Not just quietly turn away.

Your "hell mend them, if they are so stupid - I'm not saying anything" entrenched attitude does nothing.

D.

That's not my attitude and it's not what I have been saying.

From the outset my position has been:

1. If you are going to turn off DSC+, then it's on your own head. You are 100% responsible for that decision.
2. Turning off DSC disables stability control. The potential implications of that should be obvious to anyone.
3. Provided you drive sensibly there is nothing dangerous about switching off DSC and in fact doing so will likely provide you with greater insight into the handling of your car.
4. If you ever find yourself in trouble (with or without DSC) this experience could actually save your life.

What I object to, is people saying that swtiching of DSC is in itself dangerous or irresponsible. It's not.

As to the warnings. There are plenty of threads on this forum talking about the technical side of this. I suppose I may be underestimating peoples knowledge. From my perspective, if you know what oversteer is, what causes it, how to deal with it if it happens and can trust yourself not to drive like a lunatic, then switching of DSC is fine.

If you don't, or if you intend to 'rag the shit' out of your car then leave it on.

[A335i]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

If it helps, along with what ajuggessur posted, to make someone that is considering switching off all the aids for the first time for a bit of fun, to hesitate and think a little more deeply - it was more than worth it.
D.

The above is exactly the reason I posted in the first place put quite simply.

Originally Posted by zltm089

The implications (both positive and negative) of switching off the drivers' aid should be understood by all before they press the button.

But ultimately, as the drivers, they should be solely responsible!

As I said, with all the traction off it was great to drive, however, ultimately due to my inexperience back then it was the most foolish thing I could have done.

At the time there was no one stating the negatives from what I was reading, and in order to take responsibility for your actions I think it's important to realise the implications, as put above both positive and negative.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by zltm089

"driving too quickly" won't make you necessarily lose control!

It depends how gentle you are with the throttle and position of the steering wheel, weather and road conditions etc...

I might be driving fast, but if I know how to apply the throttle when cornering then I won't lose control! (even with the shit potenza runflats!!!)

I might be driving "at an average/ normal speed" but if in wet conditions, pressing the gas pedal quickly might lead the car to do a 180!!!...

I will always remember that incident when I was in the Mitsubishi Shogun with my cousin. Wet road conditions, at roundabout, low speed at roundabout, all of a sudden he lost control and the car did a 180 degree turn and we were facing the other side we just came from!!!!....luckily there was no cars around....

I was really surprised how he managed to do that at such a slow speed !!!.... bloody hell, it was like in a Fast n Furious movie! I asked him what the hell did he do??? ....slick tires? hand brakes? tuned engine? lsd? drifting lessons? hollywood aided technology shit?...nope, not rocket science!

he was driving quite slowly... so all he did was to press the gas pedal (and he didn't even floor it, he doesn't like to drive fast and is tight on petrol btw) but because the Gearbox was on 2 wheel drive (RWD), the shogun having a powerful engine and the wet condition, it lead to a 180 turn....

Seeing a car doing a 180 with such ease!!! I still believe that people don't really know or understand the potential of losing control with a powerful RWD car!

I have said in this thread that I wouldn't switch DSC off in the wet, in icy conditions or when I was not concentrating.

It seems obvious to me that a RWD car will oversteer and that if you plant the throttle in conditions where grip is limited the back of the car is likely to overtake the front. When I talk about driving within the cars limits, thats exactly the sort of behaviour I mean you to avoid.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by zltm089

Seeing a car doing a 180 with such ease!!! I still believe that people don't really know or understand the potential of losing control with a powerful RWD car!

Nowt to do with power...

When I w'lad, my 50bhp MKII escort 1.3 pop would do that V easily indeed with a prod of gas or engine braking. (pumping the windscreen washer pump with your foot often led to serious control issues when approaching junctions etc - sounds bonkers now)

So would my MkI Fiesta XR2 if you came off the gas a bit sharp on a roundabout.

Either way, ESP would save you nowadays, but to learn to avoid those things you need to drive withou ESP somtimes.

Maybe us older ones having the benefit of ESP not being invented then, couldn't be called reckless for having to learn to drive without them!!

[NFS]

A lot of this is down to experience.

I switched DSC off this morning. Coming up to a roundabout near my office, I knew in advance that the back of the car was likely to lose traction if I went round quickly. I eased off on the gas and drove around at a brisk, but sensible speed. I felt the slip angles building at the back of the car, adjusted the throttle and counter steered as soon as the back end began to slide.

In effect, I did everything that DSC would have done.

Because I knew this was going to happen I made sure I had space around me. If that space was not available I would have slowed down even more to ensure that the wheels did not slip at all. There was no drama or danger, but in doing this I gained further experience of the cars handling, the limit points and my ability to deal with a loss of traction.

If I had left DSC on, I would almost certainly have entered the roundabout faster. I would have probably exceeded the limits of grip even more relying on the stability control to protect me. In effect I would have been driving at speeds that were less suitable for the road conditions and would have learned nothing.

I think there is a bigger issue with safety in our society. We don't have 'accidents' any more. Someone is ALWAYS to blame. We've become incredible risk averse, particularly regarding our children. It worries me that there are people out there tearing about in fast cars, who have absolutely no idea what is going to happen if they lose control, because they are over reliant on the protection of safety systems like DSC.

[A335i]

Originally Posted by NFS

I suppose I may be underestimating peoples knowledge. From my perspective, if you know what oversteer is, what causes it, how to deal with it if it happens and can trust yourself not to drive like a lunatic, then switching of DSC is fine.

If you don't, or if you intend to 'rag the shit' out of your car then leave it on.

NFS, this is exactly where the problem is. In all honesty, everything you are saying and are writing, makes complete sense to me now and I admit I agree with all you’ve written, but, only at this level of experience and time spent driving, researching and reading up about my car.

What really annoyed me was on page 2 of the post where you put in capitals, referring to having partial traction or disabling traction system completely, NONE OF THESE MODES ARE DANGEROUS. I know you go on to explain other things, but if I was inexperienced the main thing I would take from your post is the thing you noted capitals, taking off the traction is not dangerous.

I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's just gone and bought the car and isn't really clued up about it. Fair enough you might say well you shouldn't have bought the car in the first instance, but, strangely enough these situations do happen all the time.

When I was referring to rag the shit out of the car, in all honesty, I’ve got an auto by the way, you can take the piss with this car, it's so easy to drive and with all the systems on it makes you feel like Lewis Hamilton, you can virtually do anything and the car will always make sure it's in control.

Therefore if I was considering turning off the traction system completely because I heard it was more fun and searched through this forum, flicked through this post and let's just say only up to page 2 had been written, I would see a senior member on the forum, stating it's not dangerous to turn off your traction. Then do you think, being naive and inexperienced I would be able to adapt to the driving style of all the systems off, because in all honesty I think that I would continue to drive like before when ragging the shit out of it was fine to do. Fair enough, I take full responsibility for driving like an idiot at the time of my incident, however, I only wish that someone had just simply said; with your level off experience mate is it unwise to take off the traction.

You’re talking about disabling traction with your level of experience and just assuming well obviously anyone should know about the consequences of taking off traction completely it’s so blatant. This is ignorant, in my view, and could potentially misguide others.

Therefore where you've put I suppose I may be underestimating people’s knowledge, I think you really are. Not everyone reading these forums are capable experienced drivers and have all the knowledge on how cars operate. Some people are just browsing for information, like I did when I first got my 335i, and in all honesty was only concerned about the looks and speed of the car.

[- Paul -]

I think it's not wise to take what's said on a forum at face value. Use your own judgement.

[NFS]

ajuggessur - I think that's an interesting perspective and I do understand the point that you are trying to make. Having said that, I stand by the comments I made. Switching off traction control is not dangerous in itself.

The dangers in driving a car (with or without traction control) come from the drivers attitude and experience. It dismays me that people are driving around in powerful RWD cars, without any idea of how to control them if they step over the limits. Particularly when (based on the standard of driving I see every day) those people are probably tearing about at inappropriate speeds.

As I said in the particular post you are talking about. I genuinely feel that systems like DSC can encourage risk taking behaviour. I learned to drive in a RWD car with hardly any grip and no stability control. As a result I know what it is like to 'lose it' and I know what cars do when they run out of grip. I'd like younger drivers to get that experience themselves and one of the ways they can do this is by driving with DSC off, in suitable conditions, at appropriate speeds.

The knowledge they gain will make them safer drivers. In your case you found out the hard way what the dangers were, but you clearly learned a lot from your experience.

Systems like DSC will protect you in many occasions, but even they have limits. Overstepping these at high speeds will have very nasty consequences. Learning about limits at low speed, with DSC off could avoid those.

But in the end, you are 100% responsible for your actions. I can't stop someone taking the wrong meaning from a statement I make or selectively reads a single element of a post. Ultimately, they have to make their own decisions about their knowledge and skill, in full consideration of their own safety and that of others.

PS - Having said all that I have edited the post you mention. Not the words, just the emphasis. I don't want people to misunderstand me.

[A335i]

NFS- As mentioned I am not disagreeing with anything you have said due to present expereince and maturing. I came on these forums to learn about my car and get advice, which you and several other members have given some very good ones. You are obviously more experienced and knowledgeable than I am which leads to me to believe you know more about what you're talking about than i do. Maybe coming off a little bit over the top because I learnt about the consequences of disabling traction systems in the most horrible way and wish no one goes through that situation.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

NFS- As mentioned I am not disagreeing with anything you have said due to present expereince and maturing. I came on these forums to learn about my car and get advice, which you and several other members have given some very good ones. You are obviously more experienced and knowledgeable than I am which leads to me to believe you know more about what you're talking about than i do. Maybe coming off a little bit over the top because I learnt about the consequences of disabling traction systems in the most horrible way and wish no one goes through that situation.

You learned the hard way, but do you feel that you are a better driver now having had that experience?

I span my first car (RWD Ford Cortina) coming onto a roundabout when I was 17. All very low speed and no-one else was involved, but as an experience it really changed my behaviour. I was going too quickly, the back end stepped out and I over corrected.

My worry is that the stability assistance on modern cars increases the handling envelope to the extent that, when things do go wrong, people are travelling very quickly and are not equipped to save themselves.

I'd be in favour of skid pan lessons for all new drivers as they have in Finland.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by NFS

I suppose I may be underestimating peoples knowledge. From my perspective, if you know what oversteer is, what causes it, how to deal with it if it happens and can trust yourself not to drive like a lunatic, then switching of DSC is fine.

ajuggessur's post shows that many didn't know or have gained enough experience yet to think of switching all safety aids off, but have read other enthusiats saying it is pure driving.

I don't for one minute think all the members on this Forum are skilled driving gods who can handle their car perfectly at all times with all the systems off. Look at the amount of bent steering components we got with the snow - no doubt with all systems engaged, but useless [and in effect, off] in that situation. Not saying that any lack of skill contributed to the outcome while in mid-slide, but getting into that slow slide to the kerb in the first place was unforseen by the driver. Certainly wasn't planned. Even by a BMW driver.

It isn't a foreseen event that makes us lose control - it is usually always getting caught out with the unexpected. In that moment you have to react instinctively and instantly (without any safety net - Like Vatanen's "good god" moment), perhaps pushing the handling in extremis. Doing things you cannot learn by driving down to the shops briskly, or within your boundaries of responsible driving.

As doughboy said many of us, like yourself in your Cortina, were lucky enough to learn on older (and MUCH slower) cars with the only electrics being the ignition and lights (and maybe even them occasionally), where your first big tank-slapper makes you wake up. Might even have taken a knock or an off to show how quickly metal bends and that, yes, you too are more than fallible.

In a 335i if that happens you are going considerably faster. The outcome may be the same due to the passive saftey (crash zones, airbags, etc.) but it can also lead to some horrible carnage.

I agree it is down to being responsible. But when you are younger, or inexperienced, and have a new car you can't depend on that. And that is with every generation I have seen (including me at the time). Perhaps I am cynical but I don't see that changing.

The act of switching everything off may not be seen as dangerous, but the potential (for many) to end up in trouble irrefutably does increase.

Plain to you and me, not so much to an excited new owner with the ultimate driving machine.

It probably is just pissing in the wind and seen as sanctimonious pointing out the potential pit-falls but I am certain some have learned from this protracted thread [even if just the distinction between DTC and DSC].

D.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

As doughboy said many of us, like yourself in your Cortina, were lucky enough to learn on older (and MUCH slower) cars with the only electrics being the ignition and lights (and maybe even them occasionally), where your first big tank-slapper makes you wake up. Might even have taken a knock or an off to show how quickly metal bends and that, yes, you too are more than fallible.

In a 335i if that happens you are going considerably faster. The outcome may be the same due to the passive saftey (crash zones, airbags, etc.) but it can also lead to some horrible carnage.

This is what I am trying to get at Dave. I think learning through mistakes is very powerful and makes better drivers. Unfortunately, with DSC on, small driving errors are forgiven. Young drivers really have to stuff it up in order to get a scare, which is likely to mean high speeds and nasty consequences. I honestly don't think a 335i is a suitable car for a 'new' driver. Personally I think a 'right of passage' is extremely sensible in a basic car that will teach them a bit about risk, physics and handling.

For experienced drivers turning of DSC in the right conditions is hugely rewarding. It reveals the underlying character of the chassis and exposes the cars ability. It also lets you feel the 'edge' that you would expect from a 300hp sports saloon with loads of accessible torque. You don't have to be a great driver (I'm very average), but you do need some basic knowledge and skill.

If you have tried it you will understand that I'm not talking about high speed handling. My little drift round the roundabout this morning was at 20mph tops. If I hadn't instinctively gathered up the skid then a simple lift of the throttle would have snapped the back end in line on it's own.

Interesting to note that the DSC on my LCI car is reigned back compared to my 330i. In many ways the default position is much closer to having DTC on.

[A335i]

Originally Posted by NFS

You learned the hard way, but do you feel that you are a better driver now having had that experience?

It made me understand I was driving a very powerful machine for my ability and one not to be messed around with (effectively my confidence took a hit for the best), especially the traction system if you can't handle it or know what you are doing. Effectively, I couldn't afford to be experimenting with the power of this car on public roads. And yes, I would say it made me a better driver because I now understood the beautiful and ugly side of the car and how important it is to regulate my right foot, because with an auto it's so tempting just to hit the accelerator and let loose.

I think that so many people can relate to Dave's post, especially, younger drivers on the difference in driving skills learnt by different generations and mentality and attitudes of people with varying degrees of driving experience.

[Jules6]

Originally Posted by - Paul -

I think it's not wise to take what's said on a forum at face value. Use your own judgement.

+1

[Dave_3]

Also being discussed by our American cousins ....

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358248

D.