[Chief Orman]

As some of you may know, I finished installing Snow Performance Power Max Universal system for diesel applications. The entire install including the Snow Performance kit was just under $2,000. I do not have enough technical expertise to have attempted the install myself. If I had tried it, I think I probably could have done it but it would have eaten up at least a week of my time.

I chose the Power Max kit because the controller seemed modestly more up to date than the one provided by AEM. That said, I am not sure there is a great deal of difference between the systems from Devil's Own, Snow, AEM, AIS, etc. I also decided to pay extra for the 2.5 gallon tank. The Power Max system cost $699. The install cost just under a grand.

A couple of quick observations that I have covered in other posts. The install was relatively complicated for my mechanic, e.g., getting the nozzles installed correctly, properly feeding all the tubing and shielding it correctly, electrical hook-up, etc. In any event, unless you find someone who installs a lot of these systems it is going to take your mechanic at least a day and probably a day and a day and a half to put it in. (I know some of you guys who are first rate mechanics will laugh but it was not easy to find a mechanic who had much experience with these systems unless they were focused solely on trucks.) I should also add that my mechanic does careful, quality work.

With regard to Snow, some of their tech support folks are great (Trevor) and some are so so. I got conflicting advice on nozzle sizing. No great surprise but they don't have a lot of experience with 335ds. I also think the fact that the $80 2.5 gallon tank does not have a empty/full indicator standard is total BS.

The first mistake I made was not giving my mechanic explicit guidance to put the nozzles below the IAT in the charge pipe. This necessitated me buying a new charge pipe. Based on reading on these pages, number of nozzles and nozzle placement seems to be all over the place depending on system and how long ago it was installed. It seems like all the newer systems always use a two nozzle setup with a primary nozzle that kicks in first with a progressive controller that you can customize. I currently have my primary 175mm nozzle progressively ramping injection from 12psi up to 26psi. At 26psi it is spraying full blast. At 27psi the second nozzle (375mm) kicks in at full blast (i.e., not a progressive ramp) in addition to the 175mm primary nozzle that is spraying at 100%. They term the second nozzle the power stage.

The other decision I made was to not do the Frankenstein nozzle install, i.e., two nozzles directly across from one another on the same horizontal plane. It seems obvious that such a configuration would impair atomization of the water/meth. I separated my nozzles vertically and offset them a little bit. This also made the install easier fitting the charge pipe with the nozzles back into a very cramped engine bay.

Based on my last conversation with Snow, I should have installed a larger primary nozzle, i.e., 375mm. This has been corroborated by the Devil's Own website which a nozzle size calculator. I find this a little surprising in that I thought I got some quenching when I first fired up my system.

Per TDI and other's setup, I wish that my system was not just controlled by turbo boost pressure. Which is to say, turbo boost pressure and engine RPM would be optimal in my view. Given that our engines can generate a lot of turbo boost at low RPM, I think there is a propensity to quench if you have the primary nozzle start spraying at say 8 psi, which according to Snow should be totally fine particularly if you want to increase fuel mileage. In any event, I am still getting used to the setting on my system but having it kick in at 12 psi seems to be a good compromise.

I have fiddled around with the ratio of water to meth. I am currently running 65% meth 35% water. Again, primary kicks in at 12 psi, peaks at 26 psi before the second nozzle starts spraying at 27 psi.

At the current 65/35 mix my car hauls ass. I have the Chipexpress piggyback set to high, the EGR blocking plates and the water/meth system...everything else is stock. Since I bumped up the ratio of meth to water from 50/50, the results have been less quenching and more power. The car just pulls like hell at the higher rev ranges. I feel confident that I have added somewhere around 40 hp. I am going to put my car on a dyno since the results have been so dramatic. I am going to be replacing a lot of brake pads.

I am now debating whether or not I ask JR for a refund since I already paid for his tune. From a performance perspective the car is pretty damn fast and I feel like I might be at a point of diminishing returns. I am also pleased that I have made a modification that is good for the car from a soot perspective. I would give anything to see my intake after a few weeks of blasting water/meth through it. By the way, I am going through a hell of a lot of distilled water and methanol. Fortunately, there is a racing fuel shop nearby (for the Nor. Cal folks look up ERC Racing Fuel in San Lorenzo).

If you are considering installing a water/meth system, do it. I don't think there is a huge amount of difference between the leading manufacturers and their systems. If I had to do it all over again I would still go with the Snow kit I purchased. Make sure that the system is installed carefully given that methanol is flammable and you want to make sure there are no leaks. I don't want to get into the who makes the best nozzle debate. I have no idea, but I am sure that I will try different nozzle manufacturers as I fiddle with the systems over the coming months and years. Don't waste your money on buying proprietary boost formulations...just find someone who can sell you pure methanol and mix it with distilled water. I paid $10 bucks for a 5 gallon drum of methanol.

Hope this is helpful to those you considering a water/meth system.

[Chief Orman]

Pictures

[TDIwyse]

Interesting overview of your experience. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

I am currently running 65% meth 35% water. ...

Would probably be a good idea to keep a fire extinguisher in your car if you're running over 50/50. It's an interesting experiment to put a little spark or flame to a small amount of 65/35 blend of fluid.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Would probably be a good idea to keep a fire extinguisher in your car if you're running over 50/50. It's an interesting experiment to put a little spark or flame to a small amount of 65/35 blend of fluid.

IMO, having a fire extinguisher in any vehicle you operate is good advice. All gas, diesel and electric cars can burn Raise a 50/50 mixture to 120 degrees F (underhood temp) and do the experiment. 50/50 is considered safe @ 75 degrees F. See the graph below and discover that safe/unsafe is not a discrete point.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

IMO, having a fire extinguisher in any vehicle you operate is good advice. All gas, diesel and electric cars can burn Raise a 50/50 mixture to 120 degrees F (underhood temp) and do the experiment. 50/50 is considered safe @ 75 degrees F. See the graph below and discover that safe/unsafe is not a discrete point.

Thanks guys. Consider me persuaded. Buying fire extinguisher today and taking down meth ratio. By the way, car still flys with 50/50 mixture.

Reenacting the Hindenburg with my 335d is not part of my modification road map.

Any tank mounting wisdom would be appreciated, e.g., best location, size, manufacturer, etc.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

IMO, having a fire extinguisher in any vehicle you operate is good advice. All gas, diesel and electric cars can burn Raise a 50/50 mixture to 120 degrees F (underhood temp) and do the experiment. 50/50 is considered safe @ 75 degrees F. See the graph below and discover that safe/unsafe is not a discrete point.

Agreed. Started carrying an extinguisher one shortly after first installing the water/meth kit.

Doing some backyard ignition testing on various mixtures showed a significant increase in ease of igniting the fluid when approaching 50/50. Doing it at night so you can see the flame is also kind of fun.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Agreed. Started carrying an extinguisher one shortly after first installing the water/meth kit.

Doing some backyard ignition testing on various mixtures showed a significant increase in ease of igniting the fluid when approaching 50/50. Doing it at night so you can see the flame is also kind of fun.

I just bought my fire extinguisher.

[Chief Orman]

Not sure pic made it, but I want to reiterate that the car just flys with the water/meth. I never thought I would get such a huge performance boost.

[rspring]

It will keep getting better as the w/m clears the intake and head of goo.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Thanks guys. Consider me persuaded. Buying fire extinguisher today and taking down meth ratio. By the way, car still flys with 50/50 mixture.

I actually was not advocating reducing the percentage of meth.
My point was that if you have these mixtures under the hood, the reduction in risk of 50/50 vs 60/40 is marginal. For example, note that at 140F the risk classification is elevated, regardless of the mixture ratio. The makers of these systems will state that 50/50 is the best ratio, but they are biased by profit, as they sell these mixtures and 50/50 is the legal transport limit. You've already experienced an improvement with a higher ratio.

IMO, the key is to treat these mixtures like fuel. Plumb the lines as you would E85 or M85 and you will be safe. Unfortunately, that is not how these systems are sold.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

I actually was not advocating reducing the percentage of meth.
My point was that if you have these mixtures under the hood, the reduction in risk of 50/50 vs 60/40 is marginal. For example, note that at 140F the risk classification is elevated, regardless of the mixture ratio. The makers of these systems will state that 50/50 is the best ratio, but they are biased by profit, as they sell these mixtures and 50/50 is the legal transport limit. You've already experienced an improvement with a higher ratio.

IMO, the key is to treat these mixtures like fuel. Plumb the lines as you would E85 or M85 and you will be safe. Unfortunately, that is not how these systems are sold.

Thanks DWR. Helpful clarification. I any event it was good to be reminded that a fire extinguisher is a good idea.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

I actually was not advocating reducing the percentage of meth.
My point was that if you have these mixtures under the hood, the reduction in risk of 50/50 vs 60/40 is marginal. For example, note that at 140F the risk classification is elevated, regardless of the mixture ratio. The makers of these systems will state that 50/50 is the best ratio, but they are biased by profit, as they sell these mixtures and 50/50 is the legal transport limit. You've already experienced an improvement with a higher ratio.

IMO, the key is to treat these mixtures like fuel. Plumb the lines as you would E85 or M85 and you will be safe. Unfortunately, that is not how these systems are sold.

Seems to me that making sure the system is plumbed correctly is the most important factor given that running any sort of meth mixture through the engine bay is dangerous. It would be good to share if anyone has best practice safety tips on this front. I spoke to the guy who sells me my methanol and he says the risk is primarily from an improperly plumbed system. If one is comfortable with their setup he advocates running pure methanol given the enhanced power and cooling effect. I am not going to run pure methanol, but there is a substantial difference between 50/50 and 60/40 as it relates to power.

[Hoooper]

The only reason I dont run 100% is because I dont feel like spraying straight fuel onto my windshield when I use the washer function. Keeping the lines away from any heat sources, abrasive surfaces, or sharp parts the line may rub against is the best way to keep it safe. The line that is used is the same material that is used in many OEM fuel lines so it is safe enough under the hood, you just have to make sure its not in a place that will get unreasonably hot or an area that it is likely to get cut or rubbed away. I would say that running it in a sleeve to prevent that sort of stuff from happening is not a bad idea.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

The only reason I dont run 100% is because I dont feel like spraying straight fuel onto my windshield when I use the washer function. Keeping the lines away from any heat sources, abrasive surfaces, or sharp parts the line may rub against is the best way to keep it safe. The line that is used is the same material that is used in many OEM fuel lines so it is safe enough under the hood, you just have to make sure its not in a place that will get unreasonably hot or an area that it is likely to get cut or rubbed away. I would say that running it in a sleeve to prevent that sort of stuff from happening is not a bad idea.

Totally agree. My installer was quite careful to make sure that at any point where the line was going through sheet metal (only two places) that was sleeved with a heavy rubber grommet. That said, I wish there was some way just to sleeve the entire meth line under the hood due to the fact that it gets so damn hot under there. As I have written before, I am almost to the point where I want to buy a vented hood given that it always feels like I am opening a rotisserie when I pull up the hood.

For better or worse, the performance gain from more meth is so pronounced that I am going to have to use all my self-control not to run 100% meth.

[Hoooper]

You could always use heat reflective fire proof wrap if there is a spot that you are not confident is safe. There isn't really anything you can do to keep the fluid cool over the long term as any wrap or anything will eventually heat up anyway. There isn't enough fluid flowing consistently to keep it cool in the line.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

You could always use heat reflective fire proof wrap if there is a spot that you are not confident is safe. There isn't really anything you can do to keep the fluid cool over the long term as any wrap or anything will eventually heat up anyway. There isn't enough fluid flowing consistently to keep it cool in the line.

If anyone has a link to a good reflective and insulated tape, that would be helpful. Shoot there are other hoses/lines I would also wrap in addition to the water/meth line.

[Puerto Rican 335d]

Chief you bastard now you got me REALLY into doing the meth thing shit and Im trying to save money to buy my retirement home in Dominican Republic. Oh well priorities priorities which one is cheaper? METH!!! LOL

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

...
IMO, the key is to treat these mixtures like fuel. Plumb the lines as you would E85 or M85 and you will be safe. Unfortunately, that is not how these systems are sold.

This is wise, especially for those running high methanol percentages.

Even if shielding lines from heat and sharp edges, those quick connect fittings are still potential failure points. I've had a couple hoses pop out of those connections. And without the flow gauge showing the issue, it would've been possible to be spraying large amounts of flammable liquid into the engine bay...

[GaryE30]

Decisions decisions

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Puerto Rican 335d

Chief you bastard now you got me REALLY into doing the meth thing shit and Im trying to save money to buy my retirement home in Dominican Republic. Oh well priorities priorities which one is cheaper? METH!!! LOL

PR sorry man but the water/meth has totally transformed my performance. Just to give you an example, I am now running a 70/30 methanol/water mix. After running my car with Torque Pro, the highest HP reading I ever got was 233. The 233 hp was after installing my Chipexpress piggyback tune with it set to high. This morning, I registered 292 hp! I am getting this performance running only a 175mm primary nozzle and a 375mm secondary power noozle. The guys at Snow Performance tell me that based on the HP profile of my car, I should be running a 375mm primary and a 625mm secondary power nozzle. Holy crap! I can't even imagine how fast the car would be spraying that much liquid. I am not sure that I am going to upgrade my nozzles, but I can't believe how much of a performance boost I have gotten from two undersized nozzle. And for the record, I have asked the Snow Performance folks at least three different times if my nozzles are undersized and they are emphatic that I can run bigger nozzles.

I am really debating whether or not I bother with the JR Auto tune. My car just hauls ass. I now feel like I understand why Hooper's car was so damn fast with only the JBD and the water/meth. Now I know.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

This is wise, especially for those running high methanol percentages.

Even if shielding lines from heat and sharp edges, those quick connect fittings are still potential failure points. I've had a couple hoses pop out of those connections. And without the flow gauge showing the issue, it would've been possible to be spraying large amounts of flammable liquid into the engine bay...

TDI thanks for focusing on keeping us safe. I personally now worry a lot about starting a fire. If you know or can recommend higher quality couplings, hoses, install methods, tanks, etc. by all means pass along the information.

The car runs so much better with a 60/40 and 70/30 mix that I can't imagine going back to 50/50. That said, last night I shielded all of the fuel lines that run near something hot. I also shield that T joint for the hoses so that it does not get too hot. Any advice as to how to make our cars more safe in this area is critical. Any specific brands of heat shielding tape would also be greatly appreciated.

Again, when I spoke to the guy that sells the pure methanol he advised that I should do everything I can to make my system as safe as possible because sooner or later everyone who starts out with a water/meth mixture sooner or later ends up running pure meth.

[32valves]

where is this pure methanol at?