[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by cb1111

This whole oil discussion is silly as the facts are indisputable - if you value your warranty and longevity of your engine then you'll use the oil that meets the standards required by the manufacturer. If you don't care about either of those then you'll pour in the cheapest crap you can find - or not even bother changing the oil - your car will probably do 50k without self destructing on the factory fill. Why waste your money on relatively expensive stuff like Amsoil when it brings you no benefit and lots of disadvantages.

manufacturer specs are nice, but the golden rule still applies: "If somethings cheap, its cheap for a reason!" Buying expensive, non approved oils like redline, royal purple, and amsoil, means one thing: Your base oil is solid, especially since BMW expects LL01 approved oil to run for 15K miles, you need a PAO base stock for anything going over 7,500 miles in the N54 engine, period. If you think an approved $4:00 oil like Mobil 1, can handle being baked to 250 deg F daily for more than 7,500 miles, better than $14/quart royal purple, then you need your head examined. Good luck convincing those fools at stores all across america that the $10 difference is unjustified.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

1. Price in no way tells you how good or bad a product is - be it oil or toothpaste

...

I'm going to have to disagree with you there - all cheap toothpaste tastes terrible.

OTOH, it probably would make a good additive to my maple syrup, sawdust and creamcheese lubricant designed for all cars

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

You're not suppose to EAT the toothpaste...

Maybe you could sell it for engine assembly lube? It would seat piston rings quickly and polish the piston skirts too.

Damn, I knew I was doing something wrong.

What do you think of the name "Always Magnificent Super Oil Industrial Lubricant" for my new lubricant?

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

1. Price in no way tells you how good or bad a product is - be it oil or toothpaste

this is true

[tufgsd]

wow, I did not realize I would create such a stir. But, that is why I love this forum. Honest opinions with no hidden agendas.

So, the LL-01 oil that BMW uses, I assume means that the Castrol Synthetic 0W-30 would qualify?

As for oil filters, I hear people say the Mann and Mahl, even though make is for BMW is not same type of filter you can find in a NAPA store?

I am gathering information my service contract is up pretty soon, and was looking at alternatives to changing oil myself. But, I have no issues with Dealer doing it either. I just do not think going 1 year or 15K for one oil change is safe. But, BMW is the boss.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by tufgsd

wow, I did not realize I would create such a stir. But, that is why I love this forum. Honest opinions with no hidden agendas.

So, the LL-01 oil that BMW uses, I assume means that the Castrol Synthetic 0W-30 would qualify?

As for oil filters, I hear people say the Mann and Mahl, even though make is for BMW is not same type of filter you can find in a NAPA store?

I am gathering information my service contract is up pretty soon, and was looking at alternatives to changing oil myself. But, I have no issues with Dealer doing it either. I just do not think going 1 year or 15K for one oil change is safe. But, BMW is the boss.

Having the dealer do routine services is the most expensive way to go. DIY is obviously the cheapest but not for everyone.

When I get close to my warranty/maintenance end point, I'll check the local forums for advice on good independent shops that work on our cars. That's where I'll end up taking it for most service.

As far as oil and filters are concerned, I'd just as soon buy then from Tischer, but Mann and Mahle are OE equivalents.

[ska///235i]

OP remember to use only LL01 approve oils and use ONLY BMW filters
change every 15000 miles
please do not DIY, bring it to the dealer cuz bmw does NOT approve DIYs.
listen to all the pros here and your car will last 50 years

[Me_Hi]

Castrol, Mobil and all the rest of the so called synthetic oils are not 100% synthetic. Google it. They for sure have a good marketing strategy when the say Full Synthetic. By law, they have to be 30% synthetic to claim that they are "Full Synthetic" and the rest is the same old mineral oil. For true 100% synthetic oil, it has to say it on the bottle, it's triple the price of the full synthetic and for a reason. Amsoil has it, and by far best oil I had in any of my cars. I noticed an immediate difference when I put it in my car.

[RFGuy_KCCO]

Originally Posted by Me_Hi

Castrol, Mobil and all the rest of the so called synthetic oils are not 100% synthetic. Google it. They for sure have a good marketing strategy when the say Full Synthetic. By law, they have to be 30% synthetic to claim that they are "Full Synthetic" and the rest is the same old mineral oil. For true 100% synthetic oil, it has to say it on the bottle, it's triple the price of the full synthetic and for a reason. Amsoil has it, and by far best oil I had in any of my cars. I noticed an immediate difference when I put it in my car.

You're not not entirely correct - Castrol Syntec 0W-30 European Formula, also known as "German Castrol" at the Bob Is The Oil Guy forums, is a PAO Group IV true synthetic oil. This is probably one reason it is the only Castrol Syntec branded oil sold in North America that has BMW LL-01 approval.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Me_Hi

Castrol, Mobil and all the rest of the so called synthetic oils are not 100% synthetic. Google it. They for sure have a good marketing strategy when the say Full Synthetic. By law, they have to be 30% synthetic to claim that they are "Full Synthetic" and the rest is the same old mineral oil. For true 100% synthetic oil, it has to say it on the bottle, it's triple the price of the full synthetic and for a reason. Amsoil has it, and by far best oil I had in any of my cars. I noticed an immediate difference when I put it in my car.

Please tell me where I can find this law? As for your "same ol' mineral oil" are you saying that Group I, II, III base stocks are all the same?

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Me_Hi

Castrol, Mobil and all the rest of the so called synthetic oils are not 100% synthetic. Google it. They for sure have a good marketing strategy when the say Full Synthetic. By law, they have to be 30% synthetic to claim that they are "Full Synthetic" and the rest is the same old mineral oil. For true 100% synthetic oil, it has to say it on the bottle, it's triple the price of the full synthetic and for a reason. Amsoil has it, and by far best oil I had in any of my cars. I noticed an immediate difference when I put it in my car.

Awww hell, I won't even bother. This is the crap marketing that amSOIL does. I will always continue to claim that my maple syrup cream cheese Euro blend is the best lubricant available - and I can back it up with the same facts that amSOIL uses.

[topcat87]

amsoil is weak. i always thought the 0-30 signature series was good until i tried redline. so much quieter.
and before anyone flames me i do these changes in between dealer changes so y not try a boutique oil

[ManyMoonsAgo]

I have been running Red Line 5W40 for two and a half years now and it must be working as my three year old factory fuel pump is still going strong.

LOL - Unrelated Sarcasm intended, so pull the flamethrowers back.

In all seriousness, I would be interested to hear why boutique oils do not submit for BMW LL01 ratings - is it really the cost or is it because BMW will not allow it due to contractual obligations to Castrol and Mobil1?

Red Line especially as there seems to be a very loyal and rabid following amongst BMW owners. Heck, even in Red Line's technical papers section, the only specific manufacturer that is singled-out is BMW.

Oh and I must have a level-headed (one that actually uses common-sense) dealership, because they know I only use Red Line oil, yet continue to perform warranty work on my car (including the engine which turned out to be a non-issue) without any flak.

[742]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

I have been running Red Line 5W40 for two and a half years now and it must be working as my three year old factory fuel pump is still going strong.

LOL - Unrelated Sarcasm intended, so pull the flamethrowers back.

In all seriousness, I would be interested to hear why boutique oils do not submit for BMW LL01 ratings - is it really the cost or is it because BMW will not allow it due to contractual obligations to Castrol and Mobil1?

Red Line especially as there seems to be a very loyal and rabid following amongst BMW owners. Heck, even in Red Line's technical papers section, the only specific manufacturer that is singled-out is BMW.

Oh and I must have a level-headed (one that actually uses common-sense) dealership, because they know I only use Red Line oil, yet continue to perform warranty work on my car (including the engine which turned out to be a non-issue) without any flak.

There are a large number of oil companies with oils that have passed the LL01 test sequence, we just do not see them in the United States due to the relatively low volume of sales. But if this were a European dominated board there would be a long list of suitable oils. So the failure of the boutique oils to undergo the testing is not due to some ExxonMobile/Castrol/BMW agreement to keep them out.

Cost is certainly an issue. While I am not familiar with the details of the BMW test sequence, typical European approvals involve a test engine that is run for a lengthy period under high temperatures. The oil is repeatedly tested and, at the end, the engine is disassembled and checked for wear by weighing the engine parts and comparing the before and after weights. I have no reason to think that BMW is any different. This type of testing is not cheap.

It is not a matter of an oil being "good", it has to have the properties that a particular engine is designed to expect. This is especially true with today's tight clearances, modern materials and high operating temperatures. As I sit here typing there are two types of oil in my garage. Both are the same price (not cheap), both are made by the same company, both are in similar looking bottles, both have the same marketing name ("Syntec"). But the specifications that the oils are made too are very different, and mixing them could lead to expensive issues down the road.

Finally, there is a third issue that makes European approvals problematical for the boutique oil companies. Once an oil has been tested/approved the formulation is locked in. This can be a problem for a small/low volume company that wants to seek out the lowest price for additive packages and base oil stocks.

[ManyMoonsAgo]

742 - excellent post, thank you for the insight.

I do admit that I tend to be 'north-American' centric and forget that the oil landscape is certainly different in Europe.

Of your points, I think Red Line and Amsoil could probably absorb the costs of submitting to a LL01 certification, but what is probably the most problematic, as you pointed out, is the oil formula being locked down.

This begs the question of how often Amsoil and Red Line change their formula? I can't imagine that is a inexpensive process either.

Just for the record, I am certainly not arguing against the quality of any oil that is LL01 certified. It goes without saying that any LL01 is a quality lubricant, it is just tough to swallow the notion that such respected boutique oils do not at least match a LL01 oil in terms of quality and performance.

Now the oil change interval, well that is a whole different debate that probably deserves it's own forum.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

742 - excellent post, thank you for the insight.

I do admit that I tend to be 'north-American' centric and forget that the oil landscape is certainly different in Europe.

Of your points, I think Red Line and Amsoil could probably absorb the costs of submitting to a LL01 certification, but what is probably the most problematic, as you pointed out, is the oil formula being locked down.

This begs the question of how often Amsoil and Red Line change their formula? I can't imagine that is a inexpensive process either.

Just for the record, I am certainly not arguing against the quality of any oil that is LL01 certified. It goes without saying that any LL01 is a quality lubricant, it is just tough to swallow the notion that such respected boutique oils do not at least match a LL01 oil in terms of quality and performance.

Now the oil change interval, well that is a whole different debate that probably deserves it's own forum.

Boutique oils rely only on their marketing skills. If the internet tells you that AMSOIL/Redline/RP/CB's Ultimate greasicant is the best thing since sliced bread and you get suckered into that, then you'll believe it and spout the same hype - who wants to admit that the oil they just paid good money seems no different from the factory fill? Nobody - so they continue the fiction.

I believe that none of the boutique oils could pass any of the Euro tests so they don't bother - but the marketing folks continue to convince people that they meet "specs."

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by cb1111

.... I will always continue to claim that my maple syrup cream cheese Euro blend is the best lubricant available - .....

When will it be available. I'm sold, would like to grab few gallons....


LUV to read threads that turn into funny sarcasm debates...

[ManyMoonsAgo]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Boutique oils rely only on their marketing skills. If the internet tells you that AMSOIL/Redline/RP/CB's Ultimate greasicant is the best thing since sliced bread and you get suckered into that, then you'll believe it and spout the same hype - who wants to admit that the oil they just paid good money seems no different from the factory fill? Nobody - so they continue the fiction.

I believe that none of the boutique oils could pass any of the Euro tests so they don't bother - but the marketing folks continue to convince people that they meet "specs."

I am certainly not looking to start a flame war, but I believe the debate can go both ways - just as no one on these boards can show the boutique oils can meet the LL01 standard, no one can show they can't either. Just because one does not submit to a test implies one cannot pass a test.

The notion that no boutique oil could pass any of the Euro tests just seems too tall of an order to be believable. Can I prove it, no, I certainly can't and I am not looking to convince anyone to the contrary.

[Belarus]

If your car is still under warranty, are you willing to gamble using NON BMW certified/approved oil ? Even if in your opinion it's better and/or of the same quality, risking when you bring the car for service related to engine issue they might use non certified oil as an excuse not to fix it under warranty ?

[ManyMoonsAgo]

Originally Posted by Belarus

If your car is still under warranty, are you willing to gamble using NON BMW certified/approved oil ? Even if in your opinion it's better and/or of the same quality, risking when you bring the car for service related to engine issue they might use non certified oil as an excuse not to fix it under warranty ?

Personally, yes, I would gamble, because I personally believe Red Line engine oil is superior to BMW's oil. For BMW to not honor a warranty claim because a non-BMW approved oil was used, they have to prove the malfunction's root-cause was lubrication related. At this level, just saying 'they did not use a BMW-approved oil' in no way satisfies the burden of proof.

Now, I would never want to get into this type of disagreement with BMW, because while you are out arguing your case, your car will be sitting un-repaired on the sidelines. For this reason, if someone chooses to deviate from BMW's recommendations, they must do their homework and use a product that will do its job properly.

I have had one engine-related visit to the dealership for rough, fluctuating idle and odd vibration. This dealership knows, and has on file, that I use Red Line oil. The dealership performed all diagnostics and corrective action (spark plug replacement and turbo 'balancing') under warranty without any comment. When I asked my SA about it, he said that I did not have a lubrication-related issue, so the work was covered under my BMW warranty.

Of course, I have a level-headed dealership who has a tendency for actually using common-sense. This notion that the instant you use a non-BMW approved oil, your engine-warranty is voided regardless of the malfunction's root-cause is simply ridiculous. I am not saying that a dealership will not try to play that card; I am sure plenty would, but in the court of common-sense, it is completely unjust.

Much of this is moot now however as since this dealership visit, I have flashed my car to Dinan Stage 2, so my engine warranty is voided; at least by BMW. Now that I can understand - I have drastically altered my car's engine and performance characteristics; voiding my warranty is not only just, but common-sense as well.

On the flip-side, the reason I went with Dinan, whose tune is regarded as being too conservative in light of the huge price-premium commanded, is because I personally believe Dinan did their homework with their tune and how it impacts the N54 engine. Again, if you choose to deviate from BMW's recommendations and/or mandates, you have to do your homework.

I went with Red Line oil because I believe it will stand up to temperature better for longer periods than BMW's oil. I went with Red Line MTL because I believe it is a superior manual transmission lubricant than the factory fill. I ripped out my CDV because I believe the clutch engagement feel was consistently sloppy. I installed the BMW Performance Exhaust because I felt the stock exhaust sounded too boring.

As for my results - well, even with a Dinan Flash, I cannot get the Red Line oil to top ~245-deg F; it's nominal operating temp is ~230 deg-F. Both these temps are about 10 deg-F cooler than the BMW oil ran on a stock flash. With MTL in the gearbox, my 1-2 upshift is drastically improved (confirmed by three independent fellow 335i drivers). With the CDV gone, I feel the clutch engagement is far more predictable and responsive when attenuated with my left-foot.

I could go on and on, but again, I am not looking to win any type of debate here. I personally believe my car is better for having these boutique products in place of the stock products. Is it all placebo? Well for some here, the oils maybe are, but the Dinan and exhaust sure are not....

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

Personally, yes, .....

My post was more of a general statement for anyone that's been following this discussion as something everyone needs to take into consideration. Hopefully you didn't interpret my original question was specifically directed at you otherwise I would of quoted you.

Appreciate your feedback and in your specific situation with the research you've done and as an educated individual as it relates to your vehicle the risks associated or lack of you're comfortable using non BMW approved oil

In respect to burden of proof is on BMW, I'm of different opinion and the main reason I wouldn't use non BMW approved/certified oil. As much as I would luv for burden of proof to be on BMW, IMHO based on my experience dealing with BMW dealership I bring my car for service and reading other posts burden is on the customer if you've deviated from BMW recommended & certified parts and etc. they can use it and doing it more and more as an escape to void work to be done under warranty.

BTW I do have very good relationship with SA the reason I don't take any MODs off when I bring for regular scheduled service.

If I'm not mistaken in case of failed pistons, rings, cracked block, oil leaks, seized engine and etc., before BMW dealership gets approval from BMW N.A. repair under warranty they would need to check that you followed scheduled service intervals as per their recommended scheduled maintenance, test oil and etc. and if anything used in the car that isn't BMW approved. If the oil used is not on their list, right or wrong, it's in their right to decline the repairs under warranty, since recommended and certified oil wasn't used. If you decided to challenge it the burden becomes on you that the oil you used was safe for that car based not on your personal view but scientific data, tests and analysis since you've decided to deviate for BMW spec.

The reason I stick with BMW certified oil changes in between BMW dealership scheduled oil change intervals.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

Personally, yes, I would gamble, because I personally believe Red Line engine oil is superior to BMW's oil. For BMW to not honor a warranty claim because a non-BMW approved oil was used, they have to prove the malfunction's root-cause was lubrication related. At this level, just saying 'they did not use a BMW-approved oil' in no way satisfies the burden of proof.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Every manufacturer sets out requirements that you must comply with in order to keep your warranty intact.

Accordingly, it is your obligation to show that you complied with the warranty requirements. A non-approved oil is proof that you did not comply with the requirements.

Contrary to Amsoil hype, BMW does not need to prove that their oil caused a failure, they need only to ask you to prove that you complied with the warranty requirements.