[Cozy]

My personal experience with open cone filters was that when installed with insufficient heat protection or a decent air feed, the car felt boggy and unresponsive low down in the revs in comparison to an airbox and performance panel filter. At WOT the car felt better at high speed and more free revving than the airbox with performance panel filter.

I then installed a heat shield for the open cone and enhanced the air feed pointing to it, the results were improved response at all points in the rev range. I pulled over after a few WOT runs, lifted the bonnet and laid my hand on the filter, it was very cool to the touch.

Based on this I'd only go with an open cone filter without a shield if my car spent a lot of the time higher up in the rev range. For town driving and short spirited runs, the air box proved to be better. Best of both worlds is a heat shield or to locate the filter into the bumper i.e. Stett Intake.

[idnan]

The title made me laugh as I had to remove my dual cones due to too much noise

I was running with no cats, Borla catback exhaust, Evolution Racewerks charge pipe and a dual cone intake with heatshield and air feed. I'm running the standard airbox with K&N panel filter now and can't really feel a difference in performance. It is however much quieter and I don't have to turn the music up so loud.

[Cozy]

How does anyone rate the BMS panel filter?

[doughboy]

Do you mean BMC filter?

I've had one in the stock air box for 25000 miles, which reminds me I should give it a clean.

No difference over standard IMO, its the piping / ducting / airflow route etc that are the overriding restriction in our airbox rather than the filter element itself I would think.

TBH the standard airbox is great, but us modders just love to tinker....

[Cozy]

I actually meant BMS but typed BMW . Looks like a decent DCI then to get any gain really.

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Fair play mate, I think the gains are minimal if any, but it definitely freed up the top end on my car. I took it off because the noise put me off initially but when I did it felt like a pillow had been stuffed in the intake!
But I've bought a used on of these now, which has a heat shield and still gets a part feed off the standard cold air feed duct.

Worth a read http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...dci+iat+graphs

Re RR fans, the Car Planet Racing DynoDynamics 4WD 1000bhp dyno cell I last used has 2 giant fan modules in front and a full wall of extraction behind (they build and run 1000bhp+ Time Attack Evo's), fans on full was monstrous, almost blew your ear-defenders off and made more noise than the car, but the operator said it was still only equivalent to a 30mph road speed as far as the engine bay was concerned.

Yea no one will really notice 10bhp day-day but if you want max performance then you want cold air, The totally enclosed cone filters that have a cold feed duct you put down on the bumper somewhere are probably fine however people tend to put the cold air feed at the bottom of the bumper, first time they hit a big puddle they hydraulic their engine hence why most cars have it near the slam panel as high up as possible in front of the radiator.

I've had my hand on a cone filter, on a cosworth running a stg3 setup so (330bhp, 25-30psi boost) and I couldn't hold my hand on the cone filter for more than 4-5seconds as the manifold/turbo was glowing red...and that's with the fan on full, bonnet open and a heat shield round the manifold.

I don't know how car planet test their cars but our dyno is also 1000bhp capable and we test our cars with bonnet open to further aid cooling and try and replicate road conditions as best as possible, it will never be as much airflow as on the road however. (fastest car we've saw in the 30yrs of running the company was an R34 skyline we mapped at 650bhp, and also a 550bhp sapph road car that we developed/built/mapped which for some reason kept up & passed on track a 'claimed' 750bhp stripped out mk6 fiesta cosworth )

[doughboy]

In its favour, the 335 air box is on the 'cool' side of the engine right behind the rad and next to the cold feed duct.

I had a 1993 (K plate) Sapphire Cossy 4x4, and if I remember the air filter (I fitted a foam open filter with a Turbo Technics stage 1 map) was on the offside wing right next to the turbo?

In fact I sold it to a Scot who came down from Glasgow in 1998, its still listed on forums, so it may be running still hopefully. (reg K191 CMJ)

[DavS1]

Yep that's true, the filter on a cos is on the same side as the turbo

I don't recognise the regi, probably saw it before though on RSOC forums or Passionford, what colour was it? I've always fancied getting one but they're just so expensive to run!

[doughboy]

Sorry OT...

Mine was Smokestone Blue, a kind of dark metallic purple, in fact exactly like this one:

http://passionford.com/forum/cars-fo...ssie-sold.html

Identical K plate and spec to mine, even fitted the same old 3 spoke cossy steering wheel to replace the 4 spoke minger that was standard.

Shot 4 is nice.

Beauty

[DavS1]

Ah I knew a guy with a 4by smokestone K plater, was mint. He resto'd the underside to but recently sold it, i'll ask about it's a lovely colour, comes to life in the sunshine, any other time could be mistaken for black!

[dxb335d]

Wanted a Saff Cossie for years when I was younger!

[JJD]

Originally Posted by DavS1

AVA down beside the airport in Glasgow mate

Been there a few times over the years, will book a slot once I fit my JB3.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by DavS1

Ah I knew a guy with a 4by smokestone K plater, was mint. He resto'd the underside to but recently sold it, i'll ask about it's a lovely colour, comes to life in the sunshine, any other time could be mistaken for black!

Sorry OT again......

Found my actual car!!! http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...x4/K191CMJ.jpg (notice the added gauge pods on the A pillar )

Done a bit of digging, in 2009 it was owned by someone called Stu at Motorsport Developements in Blackpool - heard of them?

Wouldn't mind buying it back now!

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by JJD

Been there a few times over the years, will book a slot once I fit my JB3.

Sweet, would be interesting to see how it does with the remap, would be good to see how it done before and after as well just to note the difference! Could maybe sort you a deal if it's just power runs to compare but would mean 2 seperate trips unless the JB3 can be easily removed/refitted?

Originally Posted by doughboy

Sorry OT again......

Found my actual car!!! http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...x4/K191CMJ.jpg (notice the added gauge pods on the A pillar )

Done a bit of digging, in 2009 it was owned by someone called Stu at Motorsport Developements in Blackpool - heard of them?

Wouldn't mind buying it back now!

Aw aye I remember the car now, Yea Motorsport Developments are a well established tuner in blackpool, Stu who owned that car runs passionford! Im sure it had a lot of work done on it so would probably be a good car to buy.

[JJD]

Originally Posted by DavS1

Sweet, would be interesting to see how it does with the remap, would be good to see how it done before and after as well just to note the difference! Could maybe sort you a deal if it's just power runs to compare but would mean 2 seperate trips unless the JB3 can be easily removed/refitted?

Sounds good. Yeah just power runs, really only want to see the before and after. I'm thinking fit it, do a on run on map 0 (which I think is stock) then change the map and run again. Either way I'm only 5 mins up the road.

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by DavS1

Sorry, I just felt very strongly about you're reply

well having tested a car with std cone and stock airbox, on a mild day the difference was 16c, tested on the rolling road, with a pretty huge fan so say for talking sake it was 10c on the road, thats 10 horses...

wether you care about those 10 horses or not, is another matter.

the other thing i'd throw into the equation is, cone filters fuck airflow meters - fact, it's the oil they are coated in coupled with poor filtration, IMO a loss of power, and potentially fucked airflow meter just completely rule it out for me.

Dave that's very generic and not specific to the N54. The N54 doesn't have a MAF sensor so that not relevant.

Mr 5s own testing along with Burgers testing shows the DCI being better than stock. The Mr 5 stock box with cold intake was better but for the cost vs the gain was not worth it for the majority.

BMS have tuned over 10,000 N54s x number running DCI's gained 1000's of real world logs to say the DCI are better.

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by JJD

Sounds good. Yeah just power runs, really only want to see the before and after. I'm thinking fit it, do a on run on map 0 (which I think is stock) then change the map and run again. Either way I'm only 5 mins up the road.

Cool, if it's a few power runs on the same day it'll prob be £65

Originally Posted by neil@JuicedUpTuning

Dave that's very generic and not specific to the N54. The N54 doesn't have a MAF sensor so that not relevant.

Mr 5s own testing along with Burgers testing shows the DCI being better than stock. The Mr 5 stock box with cold intake was better but for the cost vs the gain was not worth it for the majority.

BMS have tuned over 10,000 N54s x number running DCI's gained 1000's of real world logs to say the DCI are better.

Yea I realise my mistake as someone pointed out earlier it was map sensed! my mistake.

Generic in the fact that, oil and dust particles kill airflow meters though!

I don't doubt they've tested and re-tested, but it's obviously in BMS's interest to tell people these filters work and make you're car faster...

The enclosed cone filters will be fine, but an open cone, won't work as well as a standard air box other than MAYBE high speed runs where MAYBE the airflow is sufficient to feed an open cone filter cool air. but for lower speed/mid range I'd be willing to eat my boxers and say the std box makes more power where airflow isn't enough to feed the cones.



?

If it's better all through the revs from the word go, then the standard setup has to be restrictive, which I doubt.

Have you tested a standard airbox vs BMS DCI on a rolling road back to back?
Anyhoo, enough cone filter arguing, there's only so much we can take I have my views and you's have your's!

[m1bjr]

Originally Posted by doughboy

DavS1,

I think the theory is right, but it doesn't take into account the fact that with open cones the compressor has work less hard to draw in the air, so there is a lower pressure increase across it, thus the air is heated LESS as it is compressed.

I'm sure the US forum has various N54 dyno graphs showing actual manifold air temp being the same or lower with open cones even with higher atmosphere intake temp due to the above.

It's also worse on a dyno as the fans only simulate 30mph road speed at max, out on the open road the engine bay is filled with cooler air which no dyno cell fans could ever match.

My 335i was quicker at the top end with open cones, it pulled right to 6.5k, picking up at 5.5k where the standard airbox starts to make the car a bit wheezy.

PS: Re MAF issues, N54's are not mass air flow contolled, they have no MAF.

DB is on the money again, my thoughts exactly.
Compressor efficiency from the TD03 at high rpm is low.
And so reducing the PD in the inlet tract to the compressor will realise more gains than the losses incurred from a small IAT rise at the compressor INLET.

DAVs1 - are you sure you are comparing apples with apples?
Increasing the VE by reducing the compressor OUTLET temperatures surely outweighs any small losses from the slight increase in inlet temps to the compressor right?
The point being that most of the heat handled by the IC comes from heat input by the turbo. The more efficient the turbo, the less heat it inputs.
Reducing the energy required to 'suck' through a filter increases turbo efficiency (VE) and the turbo outlet temps could be expected to be LOWER with those less restrictive intake filters, even though you begin with an engine bay inlet 10C higher...

Seems we agree to some degree. The same rings true for N/A.
Gains from dropping IAT 8C with a 'snorkle' or CAI are lost due to the huge pressure drop in the pipework.
In some cases they LOSE power for this reason.
Energy required to suck down a huge pipe can be greater than the energy realised from the temperature drop they give.

Traditionally this is why high output cars forgo inlets and cold feeds and simply bolt a huge cone right onto the compressor... and I'm sure you have tested a few of those?

The reason for the convoluted and complex oem airbox is almost always simply noise reduction.
Steve

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by m1bjr

DAVs1 - are you sure you are comparing apples with apples?
Increasing the VE by reducing the compressor OUTLET temperatures surely outweighs any small losses from the slight increase in inlet temps to the compressor right?
The point being that most of the heat handled by the IC comes from heat input by the turbo. The more efficient the turbo, the less heat it inputs.
Reducing the energy required to 'suck' through a filter increases turbo efficiency (VE) and the turbo outlet temps could be expected to be LOWER with those less restrictive intake filters, even though you begin with an engine bay inlet 10C higher...

This is assuming the 335i standard airbox setup is restrictive, which I very much doubt...come on do you think BMW are going to have a restrictive intake and some company who make cone filters are going to get it more right than BMW did?
The only way i'd have thought to reduce compressor outlet temps is to lower the compressor intake temp or run less boost?
Do you know for a fact that the cone filters are any less restrictive than a standard airbox setup? other than people saying "my car feels more responsive/faster up top" or "the manfufacturor sais so" ??

Originally Posted by m1bjr

Traditionally this is why high output cars forgo inlets and cold feeds and simply bolt a huge cone right onto the compressor... and I'm sure you have tested a few of those?

The reason for the convoluted and complex oem airbox is almost always simply noise reduction.
Steve

I don't know where you get your information from, but IME people use cone filter's because they think they are better, or they can't fit anything else into the space and so have no choice but to run one. Like I say, I have TESTED on a rolling road, back to back and I can categorically tell you, that cone filters do not improve horsepower. There was ONE example I remember where it did improve horsepower, which was on a Vtec honda (I forget which one) and i'm 95% sure the reason it made more power was because the standard airbox was too small to hide the noise of the engine.

I reffer back to the 550bhp cosworth we built/tuned/developed, and we always run it on an airbox setup, RS500 to start with until it started to become restrictive to which we made a larger box as a cone filter wasn't an option....as we were looking for horsepower


Why has this focus WRC got an expensive airbox when they coulda just used a cone filter?

[doughboy]

The BMW parts list name for a 335i air box system is 'intake silencer' which kind of shows what BMW regard its main function to be.

The extra length of an intake system makes it more restrictive, even with the same diameter, so cones HAVE to be less restrictive as they remove a chunk of tract length and direction changes.

Re compressor outlet temps, the temp increase is dependant on the pressure increase, so if you start with a higher pressure i.e. less partial vacuum from sucking through a factory airbox system, the you can get the same boost with less compression and heat.

But DavS1, your experience shows there is much more to it than just flow resistance.

[DavS1]

Yea, I see what you mean doughboy..I guess the only way to settle this discussion is to test them back to back, I don't have a 335i (yet ) so can't do the test unfortunately !

I'd be quite prepared to eat my boxers (nice clean pair) if I was wrong, I don't have an axe to grind just from what I have saw on hundreds of other cars.

If the 335i intake is called that, then it could well be restrictive to supress noise!

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

This is the Mr 5 testing using VBOX equipment and parameter logging...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352077

Hot Air Myth from BMS...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...99&postcount=1

Whilst BMS do have the DCI to sell they have said the N55 is limited gains using after market intake. Think these have MAF to a lesser degree with the later ECU firmware.

They only offer a panel intake as customers request them. BMS have built there rep off providing tuning products that deliver.