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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > More Vishnu PWM Datalogs (lots of logs for those resistant to change)



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      05-10-2011, 04:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Maybe you were wrong? Is that the best you can do?

As you requested:
Only getting started, you posted the wrong data, so I provided the time marks for you.

So why didn't meth activate when boost hit over 6psi? That doesnt sound like instant reponse to me?
BTW 16-17 second mark....incase you look at the wrong data again
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      05-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #24
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Clap- this is all very old now.

You called me out on the injection psi. You were proven wrong.

You commended on the flow/DC relationship. It was explained to you.

You commented about the IAT drop. And I guess we can agree to disagree as to whether a $1 temp sensor element reacts instantly or takes 1-2 seconds.

And then you claimed that these logs look no different than any number of logs you've taken when you were running stock+meth. And that, sir, is the most interesting claim you've made. A claim which many people who have logged their meth cars themselves are probably scratching their heads over. So perhaps YOU can post up some logs to prove your claim. Even your short 4 gear pull at the dragstrip showed a knock even. I just posted 5 minutes of logs, with 20-25 full boost gear pulls. On 91 oct (not 93 like you) and NOT ONE hint of knock retard. While running 9-10 degrees of timing min at full boost.

Shiv
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      05-10-2011, 04:47 PM   #25
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is this the part where you start avoiding questions? Cause first you ask if thats the best I can do, and now its getting old?
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      05-10-2011, 04:52 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Only getting started, you posted the wrong data, so I provided the time marks for you.

So why didn't meth activate when boost hit over 6psi? That doesnt sound like instant reponse to me?
BTW 16-17 second mark....incase you look at the wrong data again
Oh so that's you trying to trick me. Sorry mate. Take a look at the graph below. The throttle blade (blue line) was half closed at the 16-17s mark. Which means that actual manifold pressure (on the other side of the throttle) was just 3-4psi. See the advantage of triggering meth off of more than 1 input variable?



Now it's your time to post equivalent logs. Either that or just sit back and learn.
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      05-10-2011, 04:55 PM   #27
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22.91 next please, its hard to see data when you can actually see it if you know what I mean.

As for the the activation, doesnt the pump activate from the boost swithc in the charge pipe you have with your kit? meaning the manifold pressure doesnt mean squat.

My logs will come if my car is ready over the weekend. Its currently at bmw again. I will replicate the partial throttle stuff the best I can, as for the wot stuff, its already been replicated by many on here, and currently I can't run boost that high, nor do I run the same timing maps...so untill ATR those will have to hold off, or you can simply look at the many posted on this forum
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      05-10-2011, 04:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
As for the the activation, doesnt the pump activate from the boost swithc in the charge pipe you have with your kit? meaning the manifold pressure doesnt mean squat.
Wow!
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      05-10-2011, 05:04 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
Wow!
Why exactly? pump activates at 3psi, solenoid opens at 5 and bases flow in ragards to injectors. If there are other activation parameters shiv uses, he should mention them to clear things up. so is the thorttle being half open another requirment?
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      05-10-2011, 05:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
22.91 next please, its hard to see data when you can actually see it if you know what I mean.

As for the the activation, doesnt the pump activate from the boost swithc in the charge pipe you have with your kit? meaning the manifold pressure doesnt mean squat.
No. You still don't get it. Please stop making silly statements without understanding. The pressure sensor simple powers up the pump so it's not always running (idle, cruise, etc,.). Meth flow is triggered by a solenoid which is referenced to MAP, CAN Throttle, IAT, RPM, etc,.


Quote:
My logs will come if my car is ready over the weekend. Its currently at bmw again. I will replicate the partial throttle stuff the best I can, as for the wot stuff, its already been replicated by many on here, and currently I can't run boost that high, nor do I run the same timing maps...so untill ATR those will have to hold off, or you can simply look at the many posted on this forum
So you will show 93oct+meth runs on an FBO car running 12psi with 2-10 degrees of advance? vs. 16-17psi on an essentially stock car running 91oct+meth at 10-14 degrees of advance. Man, if I were you, I'd be all over that crying "foul" and "cheater".

Shiv
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      05-10-2011, 05:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Why exactly? pump activates at 3psi, solenoid opens at 5 and bases flow in ragards to injectors. If there are other activation parameters shiv uses, he should mention them to clear things up. so is the thorttle being half open another requirment?
I realize you must be going at a frantic pace to keep up with all the threads, but there were some advantages of the system detailed throughout, one of which was using the piggyback at the controller and being able to use many variables to determine when meth actually sprays. Part of the total price of the system is the software development probably?

"Because there are advantages of integrating a meth control system with the tune instead of referencing it off of IDC/fuel pressure (which, btw, is still heaps better than the boost-only reference used in PPS systems). Now we can adjust meth DC% as a flow of intake temp, average knock, gear, disable it between shifts, disable/enable it through the dash, trim during traction control intervention, adjust DC to maintain a desired fuel trim under boost. Most already implemented, the rest soon to be."

Shiv

from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=hfs-6&page=15

Last edited by scottp999; 05-10-2011 at 05:15 PM.
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      05-10-2011, 05:09 PM   #32
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Nice logs. I'm impressed so far.

Clap, why don't you or anyone here ask Shiv for the logs and graph them up yourself?
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      05-10-2011, 05:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No. You still don't get it. Please stop making silly statements without understanding. The pressure sensor simple powers up the pump so it's not always running (idle, cruise, etc,.). Meth flow is triggered by a solenoid which is referenced to MAP, CAN Throttle, IAT, RPM, etc,.




So you will show 93oct+meth runs on an FBO car running 12psi with 2-10 degrees of advance? vs. 16-17psi on an essentially stock car running 91oct+meth at 10-14 degrees of advance. Man, if I were you, I'd be all over that crying "foul" and "cheater".

Shiv
No shiv, I already told you I will replicate the partial throttle stuff the best I can, if you will call it bullshit cause im fully bolted, then save me the time and I will try to get a buddy to do it, he happens to have the same exact mods as your test car.

As for the wot runs, I already said it will have to wait for ATR, or I can get my buddy again, i'll even dial in the same boost level, 16psi correct? It a good thing he has the same eaxt car with the same exact mods. He can drive, ill stare at the lap top.

As for your activations, it would be nice to tell people what you use to activate, because half closed throttle is also half open throttle, so where does the throttle even have to be for meth to spray on your system?
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      05-10-2011, 05:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecBX View Post
Nice logs. I'm impressed so far.

Clap, why don't you or anyone here ask Shiv for the logs and graph them up yourself?
If he is willing to send the logs to me, im game. I just assumed he wouldn't.
Shiv you game?
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      05-10-2011, 05:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
I realize you must be going at a frantic pace to keep up with all the threads, but there were some advantages of the system detailed throughout, one of which was using the piggyback at the controller and being able to use many variables to determine when meth actually sprays:

"Because there are advantages of integrating a meth control system with the tune instead of referencing it off of IDC/fuel pressure (which, btw, is still heaps better than the boost-only reference used in PPS systems). Now we can adjust meth DC% as a flow of intake temp, average knock, gear, disable it between shifts, disable/enable it through the dash, trim during traction control intervention, adjust DC to maintain a desired fuel trim under boost. Most already implemented, the rest soon to be."
Shiv

from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=hfs-6&page=15
That is just a bunch of hype as usual.
How is all of that really going to benefit you above and beyond the average meth kit?
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      05-10-2011, 05:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
No shiv, I already told you I will replicate the partial throttle stuff the best I can, if you will call it bullshit cause im fully bolted, then save me the time and I will try to get a buddy to do it, he happens to have the same exact mods as your test car.

As for the wot runs, I already said it will have to wait for ATR, or I can get my buddy again, i'll even dial in the same boost level, 16psi correct? It a good thing he has the same eaxt car with the same exact mods. He can drive, ill stare at the lap top.
Do you have any old logs from before? Illustrating what i've demonstrated? Heck, even with FBO mods showing sustained, repeated runs with no knock retard? You said that you did. Let's see them. Hope you still have them.

Quote:
As for your activations, it would be nice to tell people what you use to activate, because half closed throttle is also half open throttle, so where does the throttle even have to be for meth to spray on your system?
That's really a interesting thing to say. At 50% throttle, the manifold pressure is just over half of what you see in the chargepipe. So you are suggeting that I start spraying at 3-4psi of actual (manifold) boost. To spray meth, many conditions must be met.

Imagine being given a clean sheet of paper to program methanol control. Would you simply base it off of charge pipe pressure. Oh wait, yes, that is what you would do.

Well, most tuners, if given the opportunity, would base it off of actual throttle blade, IAT, boost, knock, etc,. This is called tuning. And you do it to optimize any given injection system. For instance, if I were to simply reference meth injection off of charge pipe pressure (as you recommend to everyone on this forum), what would happen when one sees a traction control event? Yep, they would flow max meth when the throttle is closed. Not so great. Is it "good enough"? For some, I'm sure it is. But when you develop a product from scratch, it's worth to make it the best it can be. Those who appreciate that will response positively. Those that don't appreciate (or understand) it, will try to do everything in their power to convince others that they are correct. These people will get some follows, all of them being even more misinformed than these people. Which will help there ego. But they will also alienate many people who actually understand the matters at hand. Fact of the matter Clap, is that you are so obsessed with your motivation that you dismiss information/evidence that clearly proves you wrong in many regards. I put up with your relentless Q/A sessions because it helps others understand. But after some time, they already get it. And I'm just left sparring with you. And that's boring and a waste of time.

Shiv

PS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
That is just a bunch of hype as usual.
How is all of that really going to benefit you above and beyond the average meth kit?
^ This is a good example of the people mentioned in bold above.
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      05-10-2011, 05:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Do you have any old logs from before? Illustrating what i've demonstrated? Heck, even with FBO mods showing sustained, repeated runs with no knock retard? You said that you did. Let's see them. Hope you still have them.



That's really a interesting thing to say. At 50% throttle, the manifold pressure is just over half of what you see in the chargepipe. So you are suggeting that I start spraying at 3-4psi of actual (manifold) boost. To spray meth, many conditions must be met.

Imagine being given a clean sheet of paper to program methanol control. Would you simply base it off of charge pipe pressure. Oh wait, yes, that is what you would do.

Well, most tuners, if given the opportunity, would base it off of actual throttle blade, IAT, boost, knock, etc,. This is called tuning. And you do it to optimize any given injection system. For instance, if I were to simply reference meth injection off of charge pipe pressure (as you recommend to everyone on this forum), what would happen when one sees a traction control event? Yep, they would flow max meth when the throttle is closed. Not so great. Is it "good enough"? For some, I'm sure it is. But when you develop a product from scratch, it's worth to make it the best it can be. Those who appreciate that will response positively. Those that don't appreciate (or understand) it, will try to do everything in their power to convince others that they are correct. These people will get some follows, all of them being even more misinformed than these people. Which will help there ego. But they will also alienate many people who actually understand the matters at hand. Fact of the matter Clap, is that you are so obsessed with your motivation that you dismiss information/evidence that clearly proves you wrong in many regards. I put up with your relentless Q/A sessions because it helps others understand. But after some time, they already get it. And I'm just left sparring with you. And that's boring and a waste of time.

Shiv

PS.




^ This is a good example of the people mentioned in bold above.
Do I have 10 minute logs of me driving around? Unfortunatly no I do not due to your system constantly kicking me and disconnecting. So like I said the partial throttle stuff can be done on my car being that my tune doesnt change anything down there from stock, and the wot stuff ill try to get done on a buddies car.

As for teh way I would activate meth, yes it would be off the charge pipe pressure because everything else is bullshit if the tune is working correctly.

6psi on/off
Btw I don't know what happens to your car, but when my car has a traction control event, my bov goes off because the throttle slammed shut....However this is rare because my traction control is off when I am playing.

You trying to teach me tuning is kind of pointless. But I guess you will soon find that out being that something is soon released that gives me the option to tune
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      05-10-2011, 05:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
As for teh way I would activate meth, yes it would be off the charge pipe pressure because everything else is bullshit if the tune is working correctly.
lol ok.

Quote:
6psi on/off
Btw I don't know what happens to your car, but when my car has a traction control event, my bov goes off because the throttle slammed shut....
And so does a big squirt of methanol into your hot engine bay. Good enough for you. Not good enough for others. Agree?

Quote:
However this is rare because my traction control is off when I am playing.
Kudos.

Quote:
You trying to teach me tuning is kind of pointless. But I guess you will soon find that out being that I have finally have something to tune with
Kind sir. I've taught you plenty in this thread alone. Plain as day and obvious for everyone else to see. At least try to acknowledge that. Or not. I don't care either way. Looking forward to when you have a fast car!

Cheers
shiv
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      05-10-2011, 05:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
That is just a bunch of hype as usual.
How is all of that really going to benefit you above and beyond the average meth kit?

I was not claiming anything except that clap has been railing against a system for days that's a few hundred more $, and he thinks it just turns on by the chargepipe boost, when many of the parameters in the software to make the meth spray decision have already been disclosed.

Sometimes we can get so caught up in arguments that we let it slip that we will do anything to win the argument. I just want to enjoy my car (sorry yours is in the shop clap) People with all types of cars spend a few hundred extra on aquamist hardware. This application takes the IDC/fuel inputs and widens that dramatically.

People want to call a purchase decision stupid, dumb, blind faith, whatever, I could care less. My background is systems development (not auto) and I can appreciate a development effort trying to take a standard way of doing things and make it more precise.

If another tuner had come out with this idea first, I would be praising their ingenuity and the hours needed to take it to a point where it could be moved to production, and supported for the customer.
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      05-10-2011, 05:43 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
lol ok.



And so does a big squirt of methanol into your hot engine bay. Good enough for you. Not good enough for others. Agree?



Kudos.



Kind sir. I've taught you plenty in this thread alone. Plain as day and obvious for everyone else to see. At least try to acknowledge that. Or not. I don't care either way. Looking forward to when you have a fast car!

Cheers
shiv
1. You have yet to teach me a thing, last time we spoke you called me the second I put the v5 for sale trying to talk me out of flash tuning. Kind sir....please stop lol

2. There is nothing wrong with the charge pipe activation
3. If some1 leaves traction on, and sprays the car, induces traction control, for a split second the meth will go against the throttle body and into the engine. Is this an issue? yea if you repeat it over and over again for 10k, you might at one point backfire or damage something....solution: Turn off your damn traction control system if you are going to fuck around lol.

So as for my questions
1. Will you send me those files so I dont have to as you to zoom in on everything?
2. Which car do you want used for my version of the logs, mine or one identical to your test car
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      05-10-2011, 05:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
1. You have yet to teach me a thing, last time we spoke you called me the second I put the v5 for sale trying to talk me out of flash tuning. Kind sir....please stop lol
On point as always.

Quote:
2. There is nothing wrong with the charge pipe activation
lol ok.

Quote:
3. If some1 leaves traction on, and sprays the car, induces traction control, for a split second the meth will go against the throttle body and into the engine. Is this an issue? yea if you repeat it over and over again for 10k, you might at one point backfire or damage something....solution: Turn off your damn traction control system if you are going to fuck around lol.
True. Or you can just map the methanol control system properly. I chose the latter. Some with go for your approach (turn of DTC!!) no doubt.

Quote:
So as for my questions
1. Will you send me those files so I dont have to as you to zoom in on everything?
2. Which car do you want used for my version of the logs, mine or one identical to your test car
Giving you the log files will be like giving a gun to child. I'd rather not see you hurt yourself while trying to hurt me. So I'll pass.
And use any car you want. I don't have nearly the interest in your logs as you have with mine. So knock yourself out Clap!

Shiv
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      05-10-2011, 06:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
On point as always.



lol ok.



True. Or you can just map the methanol control system properly. I chose the latter. Some with go for your approach (turn of DTC!!) no doubt.



Giving you the log files will be like giving a gun to child. I'd rather not see you hurt yourself while trying to hurt me. So I'll pass.
And use any car you want. I don't have nearly the interest in your logs as you have with mine. So knock yourself out Clap!

Shiv
Hurt myself or hurt you? lol Im going to take that as a no, you wont give me the logs....just like I figured, however it was worth as shot after Alex brought it up.
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      05-10-2011, 06:48 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I don't really care for the noise, edit all the noise out and take an average of each. Part throttle reads 30, full throttle reads 40, plus or minus 2 on each.

So if full flow is 40 and partial is 30, then at partial throttle the system flow 75 percent of of max flow rating. If this is correct, there is nothing "partial" about it.
Editing, adjusting, smoothing, interpolating, etc. is a dangerous game for a tuner trying to prove claims. Remember 'Vendor X' who was claiming to get 550 WHP with the stock fuel system because they tweaked the dyno output ?

Better to initially get the raw data and ask questions.
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      05-10-2011, 07:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
A few people are resistant to change. Others like to play expert in areas they have no first hand experience with. Others don't like to acknowledge the possibility that better options can actually exist. And others just follow those people with "+1s" and "yeah, what he said!". This will never change. Regardless of how hard the data/testing results speaks.

So I took some on the way to the fabrication shop this morning. It's a 20 minute drive so i took some long duration logs which I have posted below. As well as "zoomed in" sections to give a closer view of each part of the log.

This customer car is completely stock except for the Procede/PWM Meth and DCI. Car makes 406whp consistently on the dyno. Stock exhaust, stock dp, stock DV, stock FMIC.

Running on Chevron CA91 fuel and a 70/30 meth mix.

First long shows stopping at a long stop light. IATs creep up to 40C and then I take off gently at partial boost. Followed by some full throttle fun. Notice Meth DC% following DBW throttle (CAN DBW Throttle) plotted in blue in first graph along with RPM. Nice quick IAT drop. Table-top smooth ignition advance curve. Can't even catch meth off guard. And completely immune to the pops and sputters that meth cars get when coming off the throttle.



Here's a long long. Unedited. Just normal driving. Lots of sudden blasts of full boost. See ignition advance curve.


And another one with highway speeds (in Mexico) varying from 50mph to 130mph Also unedited.


Since those datalogs are so compressed, I'll broken each up into several zoomed in snapshots showing all the on boost portions.

















Yes, those Ignition Advance logs are real. That is actual timing. There is none of that ignition advance drop that often occurs when transition quickly from cruise to full boost. No post shift recovery time you often see in high boost meth logs. And literally no knock activity. Zero. As hard as I tried. Nothing. None of the "noise" we used to pass off as unavoidable DME silliness.

Perhaps this new-found stability has something to with achieving consistently stable fuel trims with methanol injection for the first time. Maybe it has to do with not controlling meth like a garden hose powered by an on/off switch. Maybe it has to do with tuning it as you would any other form of fuel injection. It's doing something very right. And here are the logs to show it. And many more to come over the next week.

I imagine that some PPS meth kit proponents will insist that similar logs would be achievable running a conventional meth kit. Enough of you guys out there run such systems and have done a bunch of logging on your own cars. You can decide for yourself if you have ever seen long, raw and uninterrupted logs that look like this.

Cheers,
Shiv
Those meth flow logs look like "on/off" switches to me.
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