[rdsport323]

Originally Posted by usc335

First off, I do not have a tune and I am currently looking at my options. I have had several "modified" cars (including turbocharged cars), so I'm not new to this. I've been lurking on this forum for about two years, so I know the history of the PROcede and Juice Box products. I know I'm going to get bashed by fanboys, but here goes anyways...

hey steven, when we meeting up?

[usc335]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

Wanted to throw in my 2c to give BMS some credit here...

It's been covered many times, but BMS consists of Terry, Jon, Russ, Eric, and some part time labor. Terry has a degree in computer science, Russ is an electrical engineer, Jon is also computer science, and Eric has a degree in architecture. There are not many tuning shops around with 4 bachelors degrees on board, most have none, for what its worth. Not that education counts for everything. But clearly their experience shows in the performance of the products. Terry has been tuning for 12 years, and AFAIK the others have been involved in tuning for a couple years.

As far as technical questions on the environmental testing of the JB3, you'll need to refer them to Terry. The hardware itself seems to be solid, there are 300 out in the field plus whatever they beta tested with. They also provide a warranty on the hardware.

The question becomes is the software as good as Vishnu... I am biased and think its better but people who have tried both more often than not comment about how similar they are.

Thanks for the response. It would seem to me that if you are tuning an engine, then Mechanical Engineering is the preferred degree. Sure, degrees don't mean everything, but Mechanical Engineers are taught about the physics of combustion, theromodynamics, aerodynamics, etc. -- principles your average "tuner" will not understand without the proper training. Not to be negative, but from Terry's early posts on this forum, I highly doubt he has 12 years of tuning experience. Maybe shadetree mechanic stuff... What did he do in those 12 years? If we're talking tinkering on cars, then I've got a lot more than 12 years of experience.

The HARDWARE is an issue for me and I'm not worried about the warranty of the Juice Box (I'm worried about the engine)! Let's just say I know a little bit about designing and building components in extreme environments (and cars are rather extreme environments). I can get a piece of office equipment to work in a car for a while, but the heat, cold, thermal cycling, and vibration eventually take their toll. Just because something works for a while doesn't mean it will work a few years from now. It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that the beta testing and 300 users don't mean a thing at this point in the product's life cycle. I think everyone has some experience with electronic components failing on their car (hmmm Honda main relays come to mind). Which leads me to the question of "fail-safe." If and when there is a hardware failure, was everything designed fail-safe -- meaning does it "revert" to a safe mode of operation. Was a Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA) performed using sound engineering methodology? This is really important for any device -- especially one controlling an engine management computer. Is BMS fully familiar with all of the applicable SAE, ASME, IEEE, etc. specifications when it comes to electronics design for automobiles? What kind of IC's were used? What was/is the process used for the solder joints? What are the ramifications of intermittent contact of a solder joint after years of thermal cycling in a high vibration environment? Inquiring minds want to know... Maybe my background makes me overly cautious, but I don't think so. Thanks (in advance) for your response.

[rdsport323]

Originally Posted by Lane

usc335, this forum has got over the great bashing and worst tuning wars several months ago. I really hope trolls would not begin this again. I have reported your post to the moderators.

The tuning hardwares are somewhat different, but independent of how they look and how they are built, they are able to implement the engine control parameters that are in a "map". This map defines the stress level for the engine. The maps available in the market are pretty similar in their power delivery and stress to the engine. Most consider that level to be "safe". Each customer is able to test the different tunes/maps under dyno conditions, or even on the road by measuring EGTs, IATs, Boost etc. Currently there are no complaints about the maps that would influence too heavily the safety level. Moreover, companies offer low boost maps, that are even safer, for those who are more risk averse.

Despite of all the above, you have picked a company to point your finger at, that has never had many problems with their products. And currently the only "problem" is that the demand of their excellent and proven flagship product in PnP form is more than what they can supply. Or is your post more personal than the company level? You seem to have a problem with a certain person? If so, just try to get over it.

I hope you will leave, since at the moment we who understand tuning products well have been able to get the people understand that there are many good tuning products out there. OP is one of us. If you want to bash somebody, you should bring your first hand experience and refer to other negative experiences. Pure speculation is not worth reading. Don't hate. Try to have an optimistic and open mind.

man, I think you took everything he said out of context. usc's post was very intelligent and was not in any way trying to demean anyone's reputation or product. He was just asking some questions that even I am curious to learn of... All of his questions were valid, and the only reason it might seem like it's only directed towards one product is because maybe he himself is interested in getting one. I think everyone looking into purchasing a tune should be asking all the same questions usc is... I myself already purchased and installed JB3... but I would like to know about the long term effects of the tune on my engine and everything usc asked.

[lucassilva]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

man, I think you took everything he said out of context. usc's post was very intelligent and was not in any way trying to demean anyone's reputation or product. He was just asking some questions that even I am curious to learn of... All of his questions were valid, and the only reason it might seem like it's only directed towards one product is because maybe he himself is interested in getting one. I think everyone looking into purchasing a tune should be asking all the same questions usc is... I myself already purchased and installed JB3... but I would like to know about the long term effects of the tune on my engine and everything usc asked.

+1
His post are clean... just questions and good points. Who knows maybe if they are answered correctly he might end up with a JB3 in his car!

[**335i**]

i think with after market DP+good exhaust system and good program for 335i u can even get 420 hp without jb3 or procede

[thegeneral101]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

+100, best review we have had in a long while.

+1000 there was not a single "JB3 FTW" anywhere in the review

[bootay]

Originally Posted by shane335i

I just bought a JB2 and after reading this I am thinking I might have made a mistake. I was actually getting ready to install it RIGHT NOW and am having second thoughts. I dont want something that is going to be really "on-off" or "jerky" when I am getting on the gas. Is this basically what you are saying it feels like with the JBS2? I am concerned about the high boost numbers on the Version 3 units from both manufacturers though which is why I went with the JBS2. Not saying anything negative as I know tons of people run them but I simply dont want to be "scared" that my turbos are being overworked by such high boost increases.

Re-inforcing others statements - JB2 is in no way on-off or jerky. I had it since 400 miles, just replaced it recently with a JB3 (thanks to Terry's full trade-in policy), and it was GREAT, smooth power all the way to the top. The JB3 is significantly better, and I don't know why anyone would do a JB2 now that the JB3 is out, but it was FANTASTIC and I had zero issues with having it installed (including having my wife/grandmother drive the car, etc.).

[midlife]

Originally Posted by bootay

Re-inforcing others statements - JB2 is in no way on-off or jerky. I had it since 400 miles, just replaced it recently with a JB3 (thanks to Terry's full trade-in policy), and it was GREAT, smooth power all the way to the top. The JB3 is significantly better, and I don't know why anyone would do a JB2 now that the JB3 is out, but it was FANTASTIC and I had zero issues with having it installed (including having my wife/grandmother drive the car, etc.).

same here...
i loved my JB2, but the JB3 i now have is better....this is called progress.

since u already have the JB2, you have two simple options:
1/ return it for full credit right now and get the JB3, or
2/ install it and see how you like it....then drive a JB3 car and make up your mind.....you can always remove your JB2 for full credit and trade it in for the JB3.

this is just one of the things i love about terry and BMS.

my 2 cents

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by midlife

same here...
i loved my JB2, but the JB3 i now have is better....this is called progress.

since u already have the JB2, you have two simple options:
1/ return it for full credit right now and get the JB3, or
2/ install it and see how you like it....then drive a JB3 car and make up your mind.....you can always remove your JB2 for full credit and trade it in for the JB3.

this is just one of the things i love about terry and BMS.

my 2 cents

Keep in mind only the original purchaser can take advantage of the upgrade policy

[usc335]

Originally Posted by Lane

usc335, this forum has got over the great bashing and worst tuning wars several months ago. I really hope trolls would not begin this again. I have reported your post to the moderators.

The tuning hardwares are somewhat different, but independent of how they look and how they are built, they are able to implement the engine control parameters that are in a "map". This map defines the stress level for the engine. The maps available in the market are pretty similar in their power delivery and stress to the engine. Most consider that level to be "safe". Each customer is able to test the different tunes/maps under dyno conditions, or even on the road by measuring EGTs, IATs, Boost etc. Currently there are no complaints about the maps that would influence too heavily the safety level. Moreover, companies offer low boost maps, that are even safer, for those who are more risk averse.

Despite of all the above, you have picked a company to point your finger at, that has never had many problems with their products. And currently the only "problem" is that the demand of their excellent and proven flagship product in PnP form is more than what they can supply. Or is your post more personal than the company level? You seem to have a problem with a certain person? If so, just try to get over it.

I hope you will leave, since at the moment we who understand tuning products well have been able to get the people understand that there are many good tuning products out there. OP is one of us. If you want to bash somebody, you should bring your first hand experience and refer to other negative experiences. Pure speculation is not worth reading. Don't hate. Try to have an optimistic and open mind.

I am not bashing anyone. I am trying to research the products I may use before I buy them. To be quite honest, no tuner has done any long-term durability testing on their software to the level of what an automotive manufacturer would do. But, that is the risk we take to extract extra performance from our cars. If you read my posts, I am particularly concerned about the hardware. Software is software and for the most part is predictable, but hardware failures can lead to unpredictable behavior. That is what I am worried about! I am really just looking for answers to what I feel are legitimate questions.

[Kenny H]

FWIW I've know Terry Burger for quite some time. He was heavy into the LS1 scene some ~ 10 years ago. I've never met him and can't say anything good or bad about him, but he isn't new to the car game....

[munters]

Originally Posted by Lane

usc335, this forum has got over the great bashing and worst tuning wars several months ago. I really hope trolls would not begin this again. I have reported your post to the moderators.

The tuning hardwares are somewhat different, but independent of how they look and how they are built, they are able to implement the engine control parameters that are in a "map". This map defines the stress level for the engine. The maps available in the market are pretty similar in their power delivery and stress to the engine. Most consider that level to be "safe". Each customer is able to test the different tunes/maps under dyno conditions, or even on the road by measuring EGTs, IATs, Boost etc. Currently there are no complaints about the maps that would influence too heavily the safety level. Moreover, companies offer low boost maps, that are even safer, for those who are more risk averse.

Despite of all the above, you have picked a company to point your finger at, that has never had many problems with their products. And currently the only "problem" is that the demand of their excellent and proven flagship product in PnP form is more than what they can supply. Or is your post more personal than the company level? You seem to have a problem with a certain person? If so, just try to get over it.

I hope you will leave, since at the moment we who understand tuning products well have been able to get the people understand that there are many good tuning products out there. OP is one of us. If you want to bash somebody, you should bring your first hand experience and refer to other negative experiences. Pure speculation is not worth reading. Don't hate. Try to have an optimistic and open mind.

To bad, that such questions are reported to the Admins, all he asked is absolutely right and has nothing to do with bashing or having a problem with a person.
For me it looks like you should read his post again, think it over and then write.

and Tuning a corvette...

The first 80% more power is like installing a new CPU in a Computer (everybody could do that).
The last 20% are the difference.

[MNR0]

I don't see anything wrong with usc335's posts. They do seem to favor one brand over another for legitimate reasons but I am not sure he knows enough about BMS (hell I don't) and so it looks biased- so perhaps it's just the way its worded.

Im not so sure that in the big picture the reasons stack up to much as, IMHO it can be a crap-shoot when you mod your car. The 335i jas been out since 2006. That's 2 years of maturity. Not even the worlds best tuners can guarantee that their tunes are more mature than that for the 335i. On that basis, both vendors are on an even keel for experience (good or bad).

As for established brands being less prone to failure? I think not. My experience has been all brands can (and will) fail at some point in someones car. My $400 brand new AEM PnH injector driver lunched my LS1 because an injector circuit malfunctioned.

You pay to play

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by usc335

Thanks for the response. It would seem to me that if you are tuning an engine, then Mechanical Engineering is the preferred degree. Sure, degrees don't mean everything, but Mechanical Engineers are taught about the physics of combustion, theromodynamics, aerodynamics, etc. -- principles your average "tuner" will not understand without the proper training. Not to be negative, but from Terry's early posts on this forum, I highly doubt he has 12 years of tuning experience. Maybe shadetree mechanic stuff... What did he do in those 12 years? If we're talking tinkering on cars, then I've got a lot more than 12 years of experience.

The HARDWARE is an issue for me and I'm not worried about the warranty of the Juice Box (I'm worried about the engine)! Let's just say I know a little bit about designing and building components in extreme environments (and cars are rather extreme environments). I can get a piece of office equipment to work in a car for a while, but the heat, cold, thermal cycling, and vibration eventually take their toll. Just because something works for a while doesn't mean it will work a few years from now. It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that the beta testing and 300 users don't mean a thing at this point in the product's life cycle. I think everyone has some experience with electronic components failing on their car (hmmm Honda main relays come to mind). Which leads me to the question of "fail-safe." If and when there is a hardware failure, was everything designed fail-safe -- meaning does it "revert" to a safe mode of operation. Was a Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA) performed using sound engineering methodology? This is really important for any device -- especially one controlling an engine management computer. Is BMS fully familiar with all of the applicable SAE, ASME, IEEE, etc. specifications when it comes to electronics design for automobiles? What kind of IC's were used? What was/is the process used for the solder joints? What are the ramifications of intermittent contact of a solder joint after years of thermal cycling in a high vibration environment? Inquiring minds want to know... Maybe my background makes me overly cautious, but I don't think so. Thanks (in advance) for your response.

If you're interested in Terry and his experience here is an interview
that was published a couple months ago that may answer some of your
questions. If you need additional information on the product or his
background you can always email him at terenceburger@gmail.com.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/08/14/tu...r-motorsports/

Beyond that, BMS offers a great 14 day return policy. Give the
hardware a shot and if it doesn't meet your needs you can always
return it. You won't get that offer from the competition.

[usc335]

Originally Posted by MNR0

I don't see anything wrong with usc335's posts. They do seem to favor one brand over another for legitimate reasons but I am not sure he knows enough about BMS (hell I don't) and so it looks biased- so perhaps it's just the way its worded.

Im not so sure that in the big picture the reasons stack up to much as, IMHO it can be a crap-shoot when you mod your car. The 335i jas been out since 2006. That's 2 years of maturity. Not even the worlds best tuners can guarantee that their tunes are more mature than that for the 335i. On that basis, both vendors are on an even keel for experience (good or bad).

As for established brands being less prone to failure? I think not. My experience has been all brands can (and will) fail at some point in someones car. My $400 brand new AEM PnH injector driver lunched my LS1 because an injector circuit malfunctioned.

You pay to play

That's exactly my concern. There WILL be hardware failures. Hardware failures can be nasty because unless it was designed to be fail-safe in all circumstances, they can cause engine damage, no matter how good your software is. Remember, if you have a hardware failure, the software will not do what it's supposed to do either. You are correct, you have to pay to play and it's a matter of risk vs. reward. That is why I am trying to get some answers to my questions. Of course, hardware failures isn't an issue with an ECU flash. Jim Conforti, where is the Shark Editor...?

[usc335]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

If you're interested in Terry and his experience here is an interview
that was published a couple months ago that may answer some of your
questions. If you need additional information on the product or his
background you can always email him at terenceburger@gmail.com.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/08/14/tu...r-motorsports/

Beyond that, BMS offers a great 14 day return policy. Give the
hardware a shot and if it doesn't meet your needs you can always
return it. You won't get that offer from the competition.

Thanks, RiXst3r. I'll contact Terry myself since I don't think anyone on this forum can answer my questions anyways.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by bootay

Re-inforcing others statements - JB2 is in no way on-off or jerky. I had it since 400 miles, just replaced it recently with a JB3 (thanks to Terry's full trade-in policy), and it was GREAT, smooth power all the way to the top. The JB3 is significantly better, and I don't know why anyone would do a JB2 now that the JB3 is out, but it was FANTASTIC and I had zero issues with having it installed (including having my wife/grandmother drive the car, etc.).

Everyone's mileage may vary, but I was not fond of the JB2. There was no way to modulate boost, and the power fell off significantly after 5000 rpm, and anytime I ran out more than 1 gear.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by Lane

usc335, this forum has got over the great bashing and worst tuning wars several months ago. I really hope trolls would not begin this again. I have reported your post to the moderators.

This thread was going great until your post. Did you even read what he wrote?

Personally, I think that since the JB3 is inside the fairly well sealed ECU compartment, I'm not too worried about contamination, but long term, corrosion and vibration could get to it. The PROcede does appear better built, with more stress relief built into the harness, and better sealing of the actual unit, and stronger mounting of the components inside.

That said, I don't like the way the PROcede gets it's power as it leaves the large power pin fairly susceptible to damage, but no one has broken one in the car yet (although some have during installation/removal).

[e90fanatic]

question to you guys, does BMW able to track and see if I had JB3 in the car (e.g. fuel pump issues)?

[JOe335i]

Originally Posted by e90fanatic

question to you guys, does BMW able to track and see if I had JB3 in the car (e.g. fuel pump issues)?

No, if you take it out before service and you are using the correct JB3 either pre or post 29.2, then you will have no problem and BMW will not be able to track the JB3 at all.

[jpsimon]

lane I think you are the only "troll" in this thread. Get a life

[iheartsole]

how much hp does the JB3 give you or procede?