[rufnekfatboy]

Well done Glasgow and Scotland

You guys put on a great show - Bonus that England topped the medal table.

I for one want you to stay part of the UK as I feel we will not be the same without you....

What are your thoughts on the subject?

[phil200tdi]

I was also at the commonwealth games - was awesome.

I just hope the Scottish don't get too caught up in the nationalist sentiment and positivity following the games. There are a lot of unanswered questions on how the independence will be executed, how GB services (benefits, health etc) will be handed over, what happens to GB defence contracts and jobs.. Even what currency you'll use... Its nationalistic rhetoric aimed at people who aren't smart enough to see it - lower classes and even youths. How they managed to legally lower the voting age is beyond me..

Of all the commonwealth countries - how many are now better off since independence?!

[rufnekfatboy]

Cheers Phil....

You are spot on with this, too many unanswered questions......

[misterS3]

Commonwealth Games were really well done. Gotta be proud of Glasgow.

But i'd like to help you with what questions would you like answered?

Health - devolved and not being privitised like in England. But with a No vote and our pocket money cut it become more and more difficult. Same with Education. Don't get annoyed that we have free prescriptions, education, bus passes and personal care (a biggie that's often over looked) Ask yourself why you aren't getting those things? Where is the money going instead?

Currency - £ but i really don't care about what you call it. It's who is pocketing it that matters. I'll take CU or Independent Currency. But expect a Plan B. Not that it matters too much. Plenty of currencies in the world. Even Panama is reporting record growth at the moment from it's dollarization. But that's a 3rd option that will never been used.

Nationalistic Rhetoric - maybe from some. But i just think when you're paying in more than you get back (Sourced for GERS reports) it starts to grate. Especially when you have things foisted on you that the Scottish Parliament votes against eg Bedroom Tax
So there is no Braveheart nonsense from most.

Pensions - they will be unaffected and actually better protected in an independent Scotland with triple lock promise (although i think this will for UK Govt to announce the same). DWP have confirmed this. Feel free to google.

Benefits - Welfare Reform i.e Austerity i.e sticking it to the poor is one of the main reasons people are voting Yes. NHS and Trident being the other 2.

If we're Better Together now as Jim Sillars put so well today in his Question to Alistair Darling (how he can call himself a member of the Labour party i don't know!). It certainly doesn't feel like it for 1 in 5 children and those using the 1000 foodbanks

But i know from these things. this discussion will revolve around how the Main Stream Media portray things. The BBC are a joke as you can see from their coverage of Palestine. So we can save 40 pages by saying i can't tell you what currency we will use. But its down the list of priorities after NHS, Education, Trident and quite a few others

[phil200tdi]

It's easy to pick and choose which policies you do/ don't want from your own perspective.

Unfortunately, the earth isn't flat. Scotland is comparing the cost of its policies (free universities and prescriptions) on the basis of being a part of the UK. Will they be affordable in the long term - who knows?

I flatly reject your statement that Scotland pays in more than it receives. Over the last 5 years maybe (with high oil prices) but what about the longer term - 30 years for example?

You may find a very high proportion of workers in Scotland are employed by the uk government (to some extent). How many jobs were created in Scotland as a result of being in the UK?

It's easy to make sweeping statements about being better off, but ultimately Scotland benefits from a stable UK economy - period. Ireland looked like it was doing well until the financial crisis - now it has the biggest population out migration since the potato famine! All the skilled youngster coming to work in the UK.

I don't care if Scotland goes it alone - I just know when it all goes to shit I'll be expected to bail them out...

[richk84]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

It's easy to pick and choose which policies you do/ don't want from your own perspective.

Unfortunately, the earth isn't flat. Scotland is comparing the cost of its policies (free universities and prescriptions) on the basis of being a part of the UK. Will they be affordable in the long term - who knows?

I flatly reject your statement that Scotland pays in more than it receives. Over the last 5 years maybe (with high oil prices) but what about the longer term - 30 years for example?

You may find a very high proportion of workers in Scotland are employed by the uk government (to some extent). How many jobs were created in Scotland as a result of being in the UK?

It's easy to make sweeping statements about being better off, but ultimately Scotland benefits from a stable UK economy - period. Ireland looked like it was doing well until the financial crisis - now it has the biggest population out migration since the potato famine! All the skilled youngster coming to work in the UK.

I don't care if Scotland goes it alone - I just know when it all goes to shit I'll be expected to bail them out...

+1

If Scotland goes independent, all the large companies will withdraw e.g Standard Life. None of them will risk a new and unstable economy. This is when it will all go to shit!

[Kerr]

There is no real facts on the table to prove either side of the story. Both sides seem to manage to provide "facts" about the same topic and give a completely different set of figures.

Who can we trust or guess who is right or wrong? We simply can't guess as we don't know the genuine facts.

Depending on what your opinion of the situations is makes you want to believe the facts you want to believe. There is "facts" to back you up and also other facts to blow that out of the water too.

I really don't see the vote going through. The poorer areas that are still struggling(Glasgow and the West most likely) will in my opinion be the areas most likely to vote yes. They feel more passionately about it and seem to think they have more to gain from independence.

The areas that are doing well really don't seem interested in rocking the boat. I can guess that Aberdeen will strongly vote in favour of sticking together. Why rock a steady ship?

I know it is a huge decisions, but it seems the vast majority of people couldn't care less up here.

Reading numerous forums, I'm often left thinking that many of the English are more interested in this than Scots.

[phil200tdi]

Semantically there are:

--- facts or universal truths
--- theory or conjecture.

Any information or statistic you read or hear has been manipulated to reflect the desired outcome of the organisation paying for the research - I.e. conjecture.

There are a huge number of experts questioning the validity of the SNP's stats. Especially their £1000 better off claim - "based on implausible assumptions" (according to the economist).

I'm not a statistician or economist but I can very easily see that the whole basis for independence is nationalism. If Scotland is happy to be worse off - which we all will be (England, Wales and NI too) then so be it.. Just be clear about that upfront!

Other UK citizens should be interested in the outcome - we will all be affected! The uk will be significantly weakened, our sovereign power as a G7, UN Security Council member etc would be at risk. We could lose our EU Veto. Our defence forces are hinged upon Scottish people (tens of thousands of forces personnel) and skills (ship building etc).

Some People I've met sees this as sticking two fingers up at the English. What crimes are England guilty of?

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

It's easy to pick and choose which policies you do/ don't want from your own perspective.

Unfortunately, the earth isn't flat. Scotland is comparing the cost of its policies (free universities and prescriptions) on the basis of being a part of the UK. Will they be affordable in the long term - who knows?

I flatly reject your statement that Scotland pays in more than it receives. Over the last 5 years maybe (with high oil prices) but what about the longer term - 30 years for example?

You may find a very high proportion of workers in Scotland are employed by the uk government (to some extent). How many jobs were created in Scotland as a result of being in the UK?

It's easy to make sweeping statements about being better off, but ultimately Scotland benefits from a stable UK economy - period. Ireland looked like it was doing well until the financial crisis - now it has the biggest population out migration since the potato famine! All the skilled youngster coming to work in the UK.

I don't care if Scotland goes it alone - I just know when it all goes to shit I'll be expected to bail them out...

I'm not saying we'd be better off. We'd just make different decisions like we do now in regards to NHS, Education, Nuclear Weapons etc. But the constitution is to be written.

And it's funny you ask how Scotland has contributed over 30 years because that's precisely the period of time that the Yes campaign go on about Scotland out contributing every year. I'll not bother with the linky. As it will be dismissed as spin. And as you have said you will flatly reject it. But these come from the GERS figures before the SNP came anywhere near power. They haven't just been made up. Like the McCrone report. It's only because we can now get easy access to such things via the web that we can see what's going on . As i've always said, if we're in fact subsidy junkies.....cut us loose

And of course there are Scottish jobs relating to UK Governance. And if Scotland is independent those jobs will be either transferred over to Scottish Governance or continue as 'outsourcing' eg Pensions dept. It's Prof Dunleavy's report on set up costs govt institutions. The one Danny Alexander misquoted by billions.

I guess down south you get MSM reports and don't get the full debate (lack of interest?!) like those of us up here who are doing their own research. We've known about Fox news in the US for a while. But you can see our own BBC is no better with how is reports on the Indy Ref. But a better example may be how they are reporting on Israel/Palestine situation. Same as how they reported the genocide in Sri Lanka. Compare with what Channel 4 did.

As for bailing out, which country has the better balance of payments

[phil200tdi]

All of the statistics you mention are founded on the assumption of Scotland having claim to all North Sea oil rights. The balance of payments when aligned on more realistic grounds looks somewhat more sketchy.. I believe 5 years was the sum. North Sea oil is running out - what happens in 20 years?

I'll repeat the critical point. Assumptions are being made about Scotland being better off on the basis of nothing changing and no one losing their jobs.

If Scotland change currency and leave the union companies will likely relocate. Jobs will go. If the new currency devalues against the pound (very likely initially - remember the euro) pensions and savings will be affected. Scotland has an ageing population with on average worse health problems than the rest of the UK. The UK already has a pension time bomb (too few young people) can Scotland manage this burden affordably?

Vote YES if you want to take the risk.

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

All of the statistics you mention are founded on the assumption of Scotland having claim to all North Sea oil rights. The balance of payments when aligned on more realistic grounds looks somewhat more sketchy.. I believe 5 years was the sum. North Sea oil is running out - what happens in 20 years?

I'll repeat the critical point. Assumptions are being made about Scotland being better off on the basis of nothing changing and no one losing their jobs.

If Scotland change currency and leave the union companies will likely relocate. Jobs will go. If the new currency devalues against the pound (very likely initially - remember the euro) pensions and savings will be affected. Scotland has an ageing population with on average worse health problems than the rest of the UK. The UK already has a pension time bomb (too few young people) can Scotland manage this burden affordably?

Vote YES if you want to take the risk.

I take you work as an economic analyst.

Oil is what percentage of Scotland's economy.

Also read up on balance of payments. Who is net exporter and who is net importer.

Google the Wood Report. Take a read.

Google why DC turned up in the Shetlands last week. I'll give you a hint Clair Ridge. Check out who owns and how their share price moved.

Then google wind power and wave power in Scotland.

Which companies will relocate? Names (and don't say Standard Life - they just bought themselves a nice new £75m building in Edinburgh)


And let me repeat. I'm not saying we will be better off financially. And it will be risk free (life isn't) We'll just spend it in a different way. We won't spend it on WMD (as voted for in Holyrood last week) but on the NHS, Education etc. And we won't have to contribute to HS2, (google the kpmg report on detrimental affects to Scottish cities) etc. Again i'm not wishing bad on any other part of the UK. If you want your taxes spent like that fine.

On a personal note. Austerity is not working. No matter what the house prices in London say. I would prefer to invest money to create jobs and get people back to work than cut deeper and deeper where people are being driven to suicide/death. So a vote for Yes is against a further £25bn of cuts (and LAbour has said they'll cut more!)

Anyway i'm boring myself now

[MrPogle]

Originally Posted by misterS3

Which companies will relocate? Names (and don't say Standard Life - they just bought themselves a nice new £75m building in Edinburgh)

Maybe RBS and Lloyds? European law could well force them to move whether they want to or not.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...5L0026:EN:HTML .

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by MrPogle

Maybe RBS and Lloyds? European law could well force them to move whether they want to or not.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...5L0026:EN:HTML .

Move their registered headquarters. Paper exercise with positive economic benefits in terms of risk.

[MrPogle]

Everything in finance is a paper exercise, really. I think the point is that they will have to follow English banking rules rather than Scottish rules and those rules are unlikely to favour a foreign country.

I am Scottish but won't get a vote. This is probably a good thing because I don't have a strong opinion or a vested interest but I am a bit concerned by the naiveity of comments coming from both sides. It's almost as if people believe that this is the one topic which politicians aren't lying about.

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by MrPogle

Everything in finance is a paper exercise, really. I think the point is that they will have to follow English banking rules rather than Scottish rules and those rules are unlikely to favour a foreign country.

I am Scottish but won't get a vote. This is probably a good thing because I don't have a strong opinion or a vested interest but I am a bit concerned by the naiveity of comments coming from both sides. It's almost as if people believe that this is the one topic which politicians aren't lying about.

I'd agree about the politicians. Which is why i say get on google and read as much as you can. Don't take anything from the MSM. And be aware of what sources you are reading from. i.e. their agenda. And weigh up what you are reading. It's not easy. I've been doing this for over a year and there are still things i learn on a weekly basis. I feel for those in 79 as they didn't have the access to information we have now. Without it...i don't think i would be anywhere near Yes.

As for banking. The operations in Scotland would be governed by Scottish banking regs. Just as they are in whatever country those banks operate in throughout the world.

There is uncertainty. It won't be milk and honey. But i think Better Together would have won this easily if they'd gone with saying why we should stay in the union rather than trying to say we couldn't go it alone. If you know us Scots, telling us we're not capable is not a winning tactic

[misterS3]

BTW - can i just make clear. I'm taking this convo in good spirits. I'm in to it - probably a bit too geeky But i also respect other opinions and their choice of vote.

And fwiw my other half remains unsure (she doesn't trust either side) so i'm not even winning the heart and mind in my own house

[rufnekfatboy]

For me, I am not going to get into the rights and wrongs of whether Scotland can deal with their own economy or manage themselves, I am sure they can...

But I strongly believe we are better together we can all see how the world is changing, everyone wants to manage themselves, but I would agree with what Phil has said, the risk is huge..

For example - Scotland goes it alone and takes the risk, if it all goes tits up what do you do then - join the Euro, we all know how this has gone for countries that are not big players, they have and you will get fucked over, Ireland, Greece, Italy...

We live on an island, historically we have had our problems but the way I see it is we need to start thinking about ourselves.. as an island we can if we all pull together be ok, lets start getting our manufacturing back in place, farming - get back to basics with seasonal food..

We have the best people in the world on this little island - if only we used it to its potential...

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by rufnekfatboy

For me, I am not going to get into the rights and wrongs of whether Scotland can deal with their own economy or manage themselves, I am sure they can...

But I strongly believe we are better together we can all see how the world is changing, everyone wants to manage themselves, but I would agree with what Phil has said, the risk is huge..

For example - Scotland goes it alone and takes the risk, if it all goes tits up what do you do then - join the Euro, we all know how this has gone for countries that are not big players, they have and you will get fucked over, Ireland, Greece, Italy...

We live on an island, historically we have had our problems but the way I see it is we need to start thinking about ourselves.. as an island we can if we all pull together be ok, lets start getting our manufacturing back in place, farming - get back to basics with seasonal food..

We have the best people in the world on this little island - if only we used it to its potential...

I agree with what you say except the bit in bold. Reminds me of my mum telling me not to sit too close to the TV

Can you explain why Scotland would have to join the Euro?
And what is the measure of 'tits up'?

BTW here is something i just watched which has clear questions being answered on currency, eu, trident etc.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28711320?SThisFB

I agree the potential is there in the UK but it's moving towards to the most unequal country in the world. And continues to do so. I've lived in Manchester and i wouldn't be surprised if people there and in Newcastle etc are feeling the same pressures that we do, and with UK Labour moving further and further right (aping Conservative policies), there is no option to change that within the UK currently. Eg Scotland voted against bedroom tax but it's imposed. I hope that even if it's a No vote the Indy Ref has had an affect to counter this.

The thing is - had the ConDem govt left Devo Max on the ballot paper there would be no chance of a Yes vote. Had they preached positively - there would have been no chance of a Yes vote. It's almost as if the plan is to get shot of Scotland.

[peterg1965]

Originally Posted by misterS3

Commonwealth Games were really well done. Gotta be proud of Glasgow.

But i'd like to help you with what questions would you like answered?

Health - devolved and not being privitised like in England. But with a No vote and our pocket money cut it become more and more difficult. Same with Education. Don't get annoyed that we have free prescriptions, education, bus passes and personal care (a biggie that's often over looked) Ask yourself why you aren't getting those things? Where is the money going instead?

Currency - £ but i really don't care about what you call it. It's who is pocketing it that matters. I'll take CU or Independent Currency. But expect a Plan B. Not that it matters too much. Plenty of currencies in the world. Even Panama is reporting record growth at the moment from it's dollarization. But that's a 3rd option that will never been used.

Nationalistic Rhetoric - maybe from some. But i just think when you're paying in more than you get back (Sourced for GERS reports) it starts to grate. Especially when you have things foisted on you that the Scottish Parliament votes against eg Bedroom Tax
So there is no Braveheart nonsense from most.

Pensions - they will be unaffected and actually better protected in an independent Scotland with triple lock promise (although i think this will for UK Govt to announce the same). DWP have confirmed this. Feel free to google.

Benefits - Welfare Reform i.e Austerity i.e sticking it to the poor is one of the main reasons people are voting Yes. NHS and Trident being the other 2.

If we're Better Together now as Jim Sillars put so well today in his Question to Alistair Darling (how he can call himself a member of the Labour party i don't know!). It certainly doesn't feel like it for 1 in 5 children and those using the 1000 foodbanks

But i know from these things. this discussion will revolve around how the Main Stream Media portray things. The BBC are a joke as you can see from their coverage of Palestine. So we can save 40 pages by saying i can't tell you what currency we will use. But its down the list of priorities after NHS, Education, Trident and quite a few others

Sorry, but a load of rubbish stated in there.

Of course Scotland COULD go it alone. Alex Salmond is spinning a web of lies and deceit to the scottish people. Scotland may well be a successful independent nation eventually but it would be stronger and more prosperous as part of the United Kingdom.

Comments from AS about walking away from a fair scottish proportion of the UK's national debt will win him lots of attention from the international bond markets - the man is a blithering idiot.

Fortunately for the majority of decent scots, the referendum will probably be a resounding NO, but there will be a big job in rebuilding relations with the rUK who feel a little bit sore having listened to the Scottish 'victim' card being played out for so long.

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

Sorry, but a load of rubbish stated in there.



Fortunately for the majority of decent scots, the referendum will probably be a resounding NO, but there will be a big job in rebuilding relations with the rUK who feel a little bit sore having listened to the Scottish 'victim' card being played out for so long.

Care to detail what is rubbish?

Also what makes me indecent?

[peterg1965]

Originally Posted by misterS3

Care to detail what is rubbish?

Also what makes me indecent?

Right then, as i said in the other thread, apologies if I used some inappropriate words!

What really saddens me about the whole Referendum issue is why it has come to this and the damage it is potentially causing between the English and Scottish relationship. I have been following a mammoth thread on PH on the Scottish Independence debate - some great stuff on there which dissects the arguments and points of debate although not necessarily all in a pleasant tone.

I am not Scottish but have many Scottish friends and colleagues and have spent many years of my career based up on the Clyde. The Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish have a common bond of friendship, comradeship, endured and relished and built up over a 300 years. We have fought together, lived together, died together, fully integrated and shared all that is good (and bad) in our Union. There is no doubt that we are stronger together as a United Kingdom and lead the world in many things - one of the top 7 industrialised and wealthy countries, a seat at the United Nations Security Council and hugely respected around the world for a great number of reasons. In this Union the Scots have their own national identity and culture (although much is in common with rUK) - the Commonwealth Games showcased a fabulous Scotland and a strong Union.

Why on earth would anyone wish to threaten this other than for relatively insular, short term, politically motivated and emotive reasons? I would agree that things in the UK are sometimes far from perfect but in making a case for an Independent Scotland, the SNP are setting out a hugely risky and largely unfunded and largely unevidenced case to split form the Union. Scotland already has significant autonomy from Westminster with more to come. Most things except defence and foreign policy are controlled by Holyrood, the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers (which it choses not to use) and the Scots even have control over certain aspects of English life (The West Lothian Question!).

So, to answer some points raised:

Health - NHS Scotland is controlled by Holyrood. The NHS is not privatised in England! (one of the rubbish statements!) The NHS remains free at the point of use for patients and nothing has undermined this key tenet in the last 5 years. Yes, certain aspect of NHS delivery have been exposed to the private healthcare market and there has been outsourcing of certain provision but this does not equal wholesale privatisation. The NHS is creaking at the seams as the numbers swell in the UK and the population ages - different political parties will seek different solutions to this issue. Scotland choses to spend its finances in a different way - free prescriptions and free higher education - that is Holyrood's prerogative but there will be similar pressures on Scottish finances in the future and it should not be expected that the rUK has to provide more finance specifically to fund this in the future.

Currency - this is Alex Salmonds achilles heel - he doesn't have a plan B and he would need one in the event of Independence. There will be no CU with rUK - why would the rUK underwrite financially a country who has just told it to 'do one'! To threaten to walk away from Scotland's share of the National debt is fiscal suicide

There is much debate about whether Scotland is a net contributor to the rUK - the GERS reports says one things, many other say something different. Take oil out of the equation (is that Scotlands oil or is it a shared asset?) and the argument becomes more compelling.

Pensions, I don't know enough about this but with an ageing population, and Scotlands age profile being 'older' then the UK, this will surely be a huge financial drain for an Independent Scotland to bear.

Benefits reform - the country (UK) was on the brink of bankruptcy 5 years ago, something had to be done. It is actually one of the most popular areas of reform that this Government undertook - i doubt that it has been a big factor in the YES vote. Whipping up anti English and Ant Tory hysteria by the SNP has done that!

Foodbanks - if it is so abhorrent to the SNP administration they could raise taxes and do something about it - they chose not to - they chose instead to lob insults at London.

Trident (and defence as a whole) - an emotive issue maybe - has Alex Salmond told the 1500 people employed directly at Faslane and the 20000 people employed in the defence industry in Scotland what will become of their jobs? The rUK will not build warships on the Clyde. Have you actually read the SNP Defence white paper? It is an absolute joke and utterly laughable.

Anyway, I am confident the vote will be an overwhelming NO and I hope that relations between our great countries to be returned to normal.

[AlanQS]

I think what never gets discussed and probably is behind a lot of yes votes and even no voters who have sympathy with independence, is the Westminster factor.

Westminster seems to work well for London and the south east but not so well for the regions of UK - Scotland is a region in that sense as well but because of our history Scotland has a chance to get out from under Westminster's dead hand.

But it's the same for the English regions as well, what works in London and the south east doesn't work well for them either.

Despite the fact I wouldn't vote for any of the parties that have ruled the Scottish parliament, there is no doubt that some of the changes made with the powers they currently have, definitely suited Scotland better - and haven't been replicated elsewhere - hence the attraction of independence. It's not animosity to the English, it's extreme prejudice to Westminster.

Peter, the West Lothian question is an absolute red herring! It applies more when a Labour government is in power but if a three line whip is passed for a law that the prime minister wants on the books then ALL that party's MPs are used. With a 1 year exception then, Scottish MPs would be forced to vote on English matters by their ENGLISH Prime Minister - 'cos otherwise they wouldn't vote at all. It never happened but was a good scare mongering question.