[kenneth]

OP,

While we appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and good results with the GC package, know that HP and Orb have contributed quite a bit to this suspension discussion, and they've been at this for over a year with lots of track/street testing. While you see them as being defensive, some like me see YOU as being defensive. Please let the discussion follow it's course.

I see the GC approach as yet another alternative to the community. There is nothing as a single solution for everyone, rather, each will find a solution that best suits their needs.

I personally would like to know if GC might be an alternative for me, and why your 430/550 spring rate vs 350/700 might be equally a good track set-up?

[jah29]

Originally Posted by kenneth

I personally would like to know if GC might be an alternative for me, and why your 450/550 spring rate vs 350/700 might be equally a good track set-up?

That's exactly where I am and the rates I'm interested in too.

justin

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Speediance

Dear Orb & HPAuto,

I have accurately noticed so far that, every time you guys say something on this thread, you are purposely trying to deter the progression of discussion or are throwing red-herrings to distract everyone here.

My goal throughout has been to facilitate conversation here, without anyone trying to bash on anyone. It doesnt matter if you are a so-called guru on this forum or a sensitive vendor.

Neither I nor anyone from Ground Control has tried to hide anything here. You can ask either of us any question and we *WILL* return you an answer to the best of our ability. I dont have to say this, because the thread speaks for itself.

Despite your incessant un-professionalism and at times near-adolescent comments like this one quoted here, I will remind you again of our rights, before I start exercising mine:

1) You dont have to read this if you dont want to. And for God's sake stop defending yourself all the time. No one is pretending anything here or is trying to attack you personally or your glorious math equations.
2) If you dont have anything worthwhile to add to this thread, you dont have to add useless information and comments.
3) If you really have something worthwhile to say as a professional or a suspension-guru, you should create a thread to start a useful conversation or a knowledge-base sharing your thoughts/opinions. I would genuinely appreciate this and so will everyone here.

Word of advice: by simply ignoring what I have to say and continuing to do whatever you think you are doing, will simply hurt your credibility.

Wow, you might be the most narcissistic person I have come across in while. Your perception is some what twisted and is truly your own. FWIW, anyone can say what they want here and there is not much you can do about it. Get over it and move on.

I don’t think Jay needs any defense but you seem to think so. He is a technician who has built up skills over the years but he is no engineer. This is neither good nor bad. His comments are his own and he has the right to make them which is all good. A few of his comments are based on what he knows and he is not able to go beyond this because this he doesn’t know. It doesn’t really matter anyways does it?

If you get beyond your ego then you might find that many seek knowledge and the truth no matter where it leads. It is all good wrong or right.

Orb

[Orb]

Originally Posted by jah29

That's exactly where I am and the rates I'm interested in too.

justin

If you start a new thread… then we can look into this from two points of view. You have to be very specific in your goals.

Orb

[DOUT]

So, when is there going to be a GC suspension group buy?
I am in!!!

[MMAJNKE]

sweet!

[stressdoc]

Everyone please try to be civil, friendly, and humble.

[Speediance]

Originally Posted by Orb

Wow, you might be the most narcissistic person I have come across in while. Your perception is some what twisted and is truly your own. FWIW, anyone can say what they want here and there is not much you can do about it. Get over it and move on.

I don’t think Jay needs any defense but you seem to think so. He is a technician who has built up skills over the years but he is no engineer. This is neither good nor bad. His comments are his own and he has the right to make them which is all good. A few of his comments are based on what he knows and he is not able to go beyond this because this he doesn’t know. It doesn’t really matter anyways does it?

If you get beyond your ego then you might find that many seek knowledge and the truth no matter where it leads. It is all good wrong or right.

Orb

Totally speechless! Bravo!

But you know whats funny, I can say the same about you... word for word!

Anyways, thanks once again for trying your best to ruin my post.

Sorry Stressdoc! But this is my last post trying to moderate the discussion. If you think I did something wrong, please PM me for future purposes.

If anyone has any questions, please PM me. FWIW, Ground Control is awesome for me and my needs. See you fellow moders and driving enthusiasts at local track events or autocrosses. Peace out!

[335 Freak]

Hi Speediance,

I already sent an email to both Mark and Jay of GC for around 3 days ago and whilst, no response as of this moment!! I wanted to order the same GC suspension like you w/ the M3 suspension parts as a package deal!!! Your thread is here is very informative which makes rookie like me wanted to jump for the same set up like you immediately!! I shall patiently waiting for Mark and Jay's email response after the Holiday is over!!!

Matthew

[mike-y]

I always have found it best to actually pick up the phone and talk to someone. Many businesses don't have a lot of time to answer emails or PM's when they are the same people that are out working in the shop.

Also, you tend to get better information in a 5-10 minute phone call than you would in a couple of emails. If all you are looking for is price, that can be easily found on their website:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...ory.php/CA=165

it looks like there are 3-4 different "packages" here.

fwiw, I've found this post to be very informative. Though I view personal reviews more like uneducated opinions (especially in a forum like this), in that you have to do additional research on your own to make sure you get the setup that is best for you. An engineer is going to talk differently about a product than a regular enthusiast, and you need to figure out what setup you really need on your daily driven street car, or a weekend track racer. this means listening to more than one person, and weighing all the info as it applies to you.

That said, i've had good experiences with GC stuff, which i've been using on my track-ready hondas for the last 10 years, so it's good to see them offering products for the e90 platform. I don't *need* a race car suspension on my e90, but it's good to see

[stressdoc]

The kits on the GC site look excellent and are priced competitively. They seem similar to the Dinan suspensions, but with some important additional pieces: control arms, camber plates, and urethane bushings. Personally I would like to see a wider range of dampers (more than just short Konis) offered, but I'm sure Jay would be happy to accommodate individualized systems.

[JM3]

Originally Posted by DG

*ahem*

Bullshit.

I don't have a single email from anybody at Ground Control.

DG

This is a very interesting time, place and subject for your first and only post about e90s.

email was sent to trog@wincom.net, first one was sent on 6/4/2008. Four in total sent to that email, which is the email listed on the webpage at the time. This is easily documented.

I have sent the text of the letters to your PM box, and you may correspond with me via email, PM or call me on the phone. Now that we know you have had communication from me, please respond, preferably in private from here forward.

Jay Morris

Originally Posted by GC outgoing email

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:24:02 -0700
To: trog@wincom.net
Subject: From Jay at Ground Control
From: Jay <james@ground-control.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <op.ub8wicp3yojytr@jay>
User-Agent: Opera M2/8.53 (Win32, build 7722)

[JM3]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

The kits on the GC site look excellent and are priced competitively. They seem similar to the Dinan suspensions, but with some important additional pieces: control arms, camber plates, and urethane bushings. Personally I would like to see a wider range of dampers (more than just short Konis) offered, but I'm sure Jay would be happy to accommodate individualized systems.

Here is the deal with Koni, from the standpoint of a company trying to sell the parts for a person to put on their car (and never call back with a problem.)

Koni will build special shocks and struts for resale, no other company is willing to do so in big quantities. I know that some companies (Bor Chuann) talk about it, but it doesnt happen. I have flown to prearranged meetings with the head engineers of several BIG, name brand companies, and when it gets past all the talk, they won't build large quantities of special shocks.

Now I am not saying that Koni is the default choice just because nobody else will do it. far from it in fact.

I am going to state this very carefully. When it comes down to the combination of availability, warranty, price, shipping and just plain old being on the same page philosophically with the engineers, I prefer to work with Koni.

I realize there is such a thing as custom valved Bilstein, but you can't buy 1000 of them. And I realize that small boutique companies like Moton an even GC Advance Design can make small batches, but its not the same. Plus the price of anything hand-made instead of production is a magnitude higher.

"Individualized systems":

There are other choices of struts and shocks, but they will all be what I call "boutique", and as such are made one set at a time with the corresponding higher price. Non adjustable, custom valved Bilsteins are another example of what has been done by GC, but again the price reflects "boutique assembly".

JM from GC

Koni double adjustable race V

[JM3]

Originally Posted by Orb

I don’t think Jay needs any defense but you seem to think so. He is a technician who has built up skills over the years but he is no engineer. This is neither good nor bad. His comments are his own and he has the right to make them which is all good. A few of his comments are based on what he knows and he is not able to go beyond this because this he doesn’t know. It doesn’t really matter anyways does it?

Orb

Just in case anybody wonders about the above comment from someone who doesn't know me, the REAL reason I do not expound on what I am talking about is because it is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Spring rates are an example. There is enough argument about the linear spring rate of the first 20mm, what would happen if somebody brought out the REAL spring rates? There would just be more argument, which is sad.

If somebody would like to discuss spring rate progression when ordering their suspension, I am happy to get very technical.

[JM3]

Originally Posted by eltoshan

I did ask Jay to share his measurements on motion ratio, etc. But apparently that's too much of a trade secret to share with the masses.

Ummm....I already answered you here.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=76

Originally Posted by JM3

" I have almost the exact same number as HP for the rear. BTW, the 2 door M3, 4 door M3 and 335 all have different front MR."

There is no need to split hairs, when you change the camber the Motion Ratio changes more than the differences we are talking about.

Now here is another reason why GC may get slightly different numbers than anyone else. GC actually measures the motion ratio at the spring, not the control arm.

Yes, you can get a rough estimate by measuring the control arm and squaring as shown, but GC actually makes two solid spring jigs one inch difference in length and measures the movement of the wheel with each of the jigs. This gives a TRUE motion ratio, rather than one that is a mathematical derivative based on measuring the control arm. Plus, any errors in measuring the control arm with a tape measure are squared errors, and that is never good.

I hope this has been helpful info, and will help you measure your own motion ratios so you can be satisfied with the accuracy.

Originally Posted by eltoshan

If this is the real DG, we have a shit storm on our hand here.

I don't think so. A few people seem to have an agenda where this would be fun or entertaining. Its not entertaining to others, who are actually participating.

Jay

[jah29]

Jay-

I think we need a new thread.

I am interested in the Double adjustable set-up with 350/700 spring rates. I could start a new thread asking some questions or Ground Control could start an advertising type post(s) telling what they have available and soliciting questions from everybody...

Which do you prefer?

justin

[eltoshan]

Originally Posted by JM3

Ummm....I already answered you here.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=76



There is no need to split hairs, when you change the camber the Motion Ratio changes more than the differences we are talking about.

Now here is another reason why GC may get slightly different numbers than anyone else. GC actually measures the motion ratio at the spring, not the control arm.

Yes, you can get a rough estimate by measuring the control arm and squaring as shown, but GC actually makes two solid spring jigs one inch difference in length and measures the movement of the wheel with each of the jigs. This gives a TRUE motion ratio, rather than one that is a mathematical derivative based on measuring the control arm. Plus, any errors in measuring the control arm with a tape measure are squared errors, and that is never good.

I hope this has been helpful info, and will help you measure your own motion ratios so you can be satisfied with the accuracy.




I don't think so. A few people seem to have an agenda where this would be fun or entertaining. Its not entertaining to others, who are actually participating.

Jay

Hrm, I never did think about measuring at the spring vs control arm. Is the difference significant enough? I am more or less looking for a good motion ratio number to base things off of, since I probably won't actually measure anything until spring. I figured since you pointed out that the front MR is lower, it must be significant enough of a difference.

I would still like to know what mistakes Dennis Grant made in his calculator, are the mistakes significant enough to make the calculator not a good reference material?

[D-Rock]

I was going to go with GC but i think i will be getting Vorshlag this time.

[JM3]

Originally Posted by D-Rock

I was going to go with GC but i think i will be getting Vorshlag this time.

This is your first post in almost two months. And for some reason this^ is your contribution to e90 post.

It has become obvious that many people who I have spoken with are quite correct, true enthusiasts deserve a new thread.

Jay from GC

[JM3]

New thread starting Monday, Jan 4.

I will answer questions about:

Ground Control suspension for the e9x and e8x.

Here is pic from our very first prototypes of M3 parts, taken right around June 3 or 4 th, 2008. We actually had ordered the control arms before the e92 M3 was available but didn't receive them until June. I have a receipt from Niello BMW in Sacramento with a date on it. Ground Control has been testing, building and selling e9x parts for a long time. Its just that we have never been a sponsor on e90 post, but that doesnt mean it hasn't been happening.

Thanks for the bandwidth, and we will try again on Monday.

Jay from GC

PS its called "damping", not "dampening" when you're talking about shocks.

[Hedges]

I may end up going with these and go with the recommended 400/650 or 425/650 for daily driving with the occasional spirited driving depending on the price.

[DG]

If this is the real DG, we have a shit storm on our hand here.

It's me. There can be only one.

A little bird dropped me a line that I was being badmouthed and might want to take a look at what was going on.

I just had my first ever communication with Jay Morris ref Autocross to Win via PM on this site. My first ever EVER communication with him was when I bought a suspension package from him in late 98 or perhaps early 99 when I converted my car to ESP.

He claims that he has sent me emails previously. Perhaps he did; I never got them. Maybe my spam filter ate them. Certainly there has been no dialogue, debate, nor discussion.

But in any case, I'm not interested in fighting anybody (except the Taliban and their buddies) so there will be no shitstorm from me.

Autocross to Win is a collection of all I learned during my time operating Far North Racing and my subsequent time as lead engineer for a C5 racing team. A large part of that was running the shock dyno (for myself and a who's who of customers) where I made a large number of very interesting discoveries about the state of aftermarket suspension engineering and quality control. In particular, there is a LOT of crap out there. Not crap as in "I don't like so-and-so so I'll make up stories out of school" or "Brand X pays me so I'll attack Brand Y" but "holy cow I just put Brand Z on the dyno and you won't believe what I found!!"

Accordingly, A2W is full of a lot of hard-learned truths and gored sacred cows.

The single biggest lesson to come out of A2W is this - TRUST NO ONE EXCEPT YOUR OWN MEASUREMENTS. There are a lot - and I do mean A LOT - of supposed "suspension gurus" out there who have made and sold parts with little to no testing or quality control. I have seen adjusters that were not physically connected to the inside of the shock. I have seen Penskes where the left front and right front shimstacks were mirror images (ie, LF rebound was RF compression) I have seen adjusters that were so completely nonlinear that each click was like a whole new valving. I have seen horror show after horror show and I have met people who had drunk the Kool-Aid and were CONVINCED that Brand X was the hot ticket with no more evidence than their butt-dyno.

And the crazy thing is that the work to determine the truth is really very simple. It ain't rocket science or black magic. It takes a little bit of work and a willingness to shop around.

Even crazier is I know guys who won't buy an air filter or a set of spark plugs without a before and after Dynojet run who will happily drop three bills on someone's "black magic" suspension. Crazy.

Measure your suspension; it's not hard.

Model your suspension. Bill Mitchell's stuff is NASCAR-proof and easy to use, but he's not the only game in town; go with who you like.

Corner-weigh the car. Everybody knows someone with a set of scales.

Pick your spring rates, and TEST THE SPRINGS so you know how they work. I like MK Technologies' unit because it works hard to compress the spring absolutely square (any bend in the spring throws off results - and that has implications for the spring on the car)

Dyno your shocks and INSIST that any new shocks you buy come with the actual dyno plots for YOUR shocks. When I was selling shocks, every single shock came with a full adjuster sweep plot from 0-3 in/sec and a min/max plot at 1-10 in/sec - and I matched left to right where I figured they'd need to be. I consider that the absolute minimum standard.

Anybody tries to tell you that the valving or rates he wants to sell you is secret or proprietary - walk away; he has no idea what he is talking about.

Now as far as the beef Jay had with a mention of GC on A2W.. fair enough. At his request, I have posted the evidence of my claims for all to see.

DG