[tony20009]

Look, the simple fact is that I think $40-$50K is the beginning point at which one should expect some luxury appointments. And I think that leather seats, bluetooth, et al as originally noted, constitute basic elements of luxury. And, heads up display and self-parking functionality, and self-regulating cruise control are at the high end of what're lux appointments. But for my entry level expenditure, I expect some entry level appointments. It's really that simple.

It's not about what other car makers do or don't offer. It's not about all the great things that do come with a BMW at whatever price one pays. (Although I do think the 328 is a better value than the 335; and my points are far more germane to the 335.) It is simply about value for dollar and integrity to what BMW is actually all about -- driving. And I maintain that if the car is all about driving, then leave off the pretensions to lux and charge me a moderate price that provides the all driving pleasure with a Corolla's level of creature comforts. But don't make me pay luxury prices (entry level or otherwise) for all the driving pleasure and provide few if any of the basic luxury features.

If you are charging an entry level luxury price, you must also have ALL of the entry level luxury features. Full stop. If you charge less than the entry level to luxury, then you can get away with not including this or that appointment.

If you don't think $40-$50K represents an entry level luxury price point or you disagree with what I defined as basic luxury appointments, I submit that we'll just have to agree to disagree and go have a beer.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Who cares? Besides, if the old one isn't broke, why fix it? How often does Porsche come up with a new chassis? Hell, they don't even come up with a new body style...easily among the least expensive and laziest design shops in the car industry.

Thank your for your original thoughts Mr. Clarkson.

Besides, Porsche is constantly refining and reworking their chassis, just look at some lap times.

Originally Posted by tony20009

Well, no, but that's not really the point, now, is it? The point is that for what one pays for a BMW, one should get some bells and whistles. Look even on BMW's website at the six series and tell me for your $78K you don't think some of those options should be standard.

This is exactly the point, you are paying for something else, not the bells a whistles, unless you choose to.

Originally Posted by tony20009

So what, Audi makes a fine car, regardless what platform it sits on. I don't care for the feel of them as much as I do BMW's, so I buy BMW and get over the fact that I still feel nickel'd and dime'd. Seems to me the current as well as some past BMW 3er platforms were just fine and I wouldn't mind a bit if they recycle one of them so they can give me better overall value for the money.

They can make a fine car that you don't like as much, with more standard features because they didn't spend as much making it feel right.

Originally Posted by tony20009

Sometimes you get less than what you pay for. It's just that with BMW you do get a darn fine driver's car. And it's worth noting too that outside the US, there are variants of the 3er that don't come all gussied up and are not luxury cars of any sort, but then they don't carry a luxury price either. I'd be quite content to buy one of those, but they don't offer them in the US.

Truth is that I'd be fine with buying a 335 with cloth seats, manual windows, manual door locks, manual seats, a simple radio, an iPod hookup, no computerized information center, and so on for about $35K +/- and I'd be thrilled. All I really want is BMW's engineering (engine, tranny, chassis...the major bits) in a modestly appointed car for something around $30K-$35K. But since the price of entry exceeds $40K, I expect some bits that are indeed lux.

Take a look at how much those cars cost in those markets, you will find out that we get one hell of a deal in the US.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Thank your for your original thoughts Mr. Clarkson.

You are welcome.

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

They can make a fine car that you don't like as much, with more standard features because they didn't spend as much making it feel right.

I am not convinced of my own infallibility.

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Take a look at how much those cars cost in those markets, you will find out that we get one hell of a deal in the US.

Sure if you convert the price to dollars, but you are correct, we do pay a slightly lower price in the main. (Australia and China excepted...) By and large, however, I have found that my peers in the UK and on the continent see the prices of BMWs -- at leat the 3er -- much as I see them here in the US. Certainly not cheap, but not hugely expensive and well within reach of most any professional. And for folks who will sacrifice some "stuff" to get a great drive, it's the choice to make, but it's a mildly extravagant choice given the price one pays and the things one doesn't get.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by tony20009

I submit that we'll just have to agree to disagree and go have a beer.

[pony_trekker]

Damn Peter Luger's. I ordered the steak and they wouldn't even throw in the french fried taters for free.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by pony_trekker

Damn Peter Luger's. I ordered the steak and they wouldn't even throw in the french fried taters for free.

Clearly you understand my point.

[Majikthese42]

Originally Posted by NFS13

Acura offers some nice standard items like the ones you mentioned, and they are offered on the TL as well. I would guess that Acura's pricing has a lot to do with this as they feel they need to compete TSX vs 1series, and TL vs 328 series. Without those items added as standard, the price of both cars would drop them down a category, leaving the TSX without a German rival.

Honda has been selling it's cars well-equipped as a marketing decision since the 1970s.

BMW hasn't -- because BMW customers are willing to pay extra for the equipment. Honda buyers would probably laugh if Honda tried doing this.

Here's a window sticker for a BMW 3.0CS. $14,575.25 was money back then! Comparable to a 6 or 7 Series today. I don't see a radio listed so I'm guessing it was a dealer-installed option!

BMW still charges extra for the leather upholstery and metallic paint.... I'm confident that BMW would still charge extra for air conditioning, Michelin tires and electric windows if it could.

[stressdoc]

I don't want your luxury "necessities".

I don't care what is "standard" on a Buick or Lexus.

I don't want leather, NAV, heated seats, fold down seats, alarm, CA, etc. None of it. Not the weight, the complexity, or the maintenance costs.

I just want the fastest, best handling, most fun 4-door sedan that I can afford. At $36k w/ZSP via ED, I got an incredible car, enhanced by a few good mods.

[woodpecka]

I think there is an important marketing difference between Audi and BMW that could explain their different business model. BMW give you more on the mechanic stability, handling, joy, etc. Audi is not bad on the performances but they focus more on the luxury feeling, in between BMW and Mercedes.

Sport>BMW>AUDI>MERCEDES>Luxury

This could justify why the luxury options are not included in the base price. At the end, it doesn't matter as only the final price does.

It is interesting to analyse how BMWNA is packaging their car. In Canada, the cars are more expensive but they included the winter packages, Xenon and Bluetooth/USB. They also offer the 323i with no sunroof, Xenon and Bluetooth/USB. Different strategy for different market.

In Europe, they offer the cars with less options like no climate control, leatherette, basic radio, etc.

[cbs21]

perforated seats! my arse sweats so much

[NFS13]

Originally Posted by Majikthese42

Honda has been selling it's cars well-equipped as a marketing decision since the 1970s.

BMW hasn't -- because BMW customers are willing to pay extra for the equipment. Honda buyers would probably laugh if Honda tried doing this.

Here's a window sticker for a BMW 3.0CS. $14,575.25 was money back then! Comparable to a 6 or 7 Series today. I don't see a radio listed so I'm guessing it was a dealer-installed option!

BMW still charges extra for the leather upholstery and metallic paint.... I'm confident that BMW would still charge extra for air conditioning, Michelin tires and electric windows if it could.

Honda also charged extra for air and radio during this time frame also! I know because I bought several civic's. Radio, air and floor mats were extra. And there was no leather options for that vehicle.

[Majikthese42]

Originally Posted by NFS13

Honda also charged extra for air and radio during this time frame also! I know because I bought several civic's. Radio, air and floor mats were extra. And there was no leather options for that vehicle.

Honda's strategy looks like it dates to 1976 -- at least for the Accord. 34 years ago (!). I don't know when they started equipping the Civic with those accessories standard. I think BMW was still shipping cars without radios in 1976.

Originally Posted by First generation (SJ/SM) 1976-1978 Honda Accord

Production 1976–1981
Assembly Sayama, Japan
Class Compact
Body style(s) 3-door hatchback]

The first generation Honda Accord was launched in 1976 as a three-door hatchback with 68 hp (51 kW), a 93.7-inch (2,380.0 mm) wheelbase, and a weight of about 2,000 pounds. It was larger than the tiny Honda Civic at 162 inches (4,115 mm) long. The Accord sold well, due to its moderate size and great fuel economy. It was the first Japanese small car with features like cloth seats, a tachometer, intermittent wipers, and an AM/FM radio as standard equipment. In 1978 an LX version of the coupe was added which came with air conditioning, digital clock, and power steering.

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=4104

Originally Posted by The Accord Story

The name Accord was derived from Honda's unremitting effort to achieve "accord" between people, society, and the automobile through advanced technology. The introduction of the first Accord in June of 1976 was significant for both the American Honda Motor Co., Inc., and the automobile industry as a whole. For Honda, then known mainly for its economical Civic, it was the first step toward becoming a full-line auto manufacturer and a major presence in the U.S. market. For the industry, the Accord defined a new kind of car - a practical automobile that combined economy and value with sporty style and spirited performance.

First Generation Accord - 1976 - 1981

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=4104



The first-generation Accord was initially available only as a three-door hatchback; a sedan later debuted in 1979. The 1976 Accord CVCC hatchback was 162.8 inches long, had a 93.7-inch wheelbase and was powered by a 1.6-liter, CVCC 4-cylinder engine. The 68 horsepower rating may seem low by modern standards, but a typical V-8 at the time produced about 140 horsepower. The 2,000-pound Accord actually had a better power-to-weight ratio than traditional larger vehicles that weighed in above 3,500 pounds. Comparatively, the Accord felt "energetic" despite the horsepower difference. Only one trim level was available in 1976 and the suggested price was $3,995. Cutting-edge for its time, the Accord featured an all-aluminum cylinder head, 5-speed manual transmission and front-wheel drive, along with generous standard equipment that included an AM/FM stereo radio, rear defroster/wiper/washer and a remote hatch release. The innovative interior layout featured a combination of comfortable seating, logical controls and high-quality switchgear, along with a maintenance reminder system that recommended when to change oil, rotate the tires and more. The Accord design was refined during its first model cycle and new models were added. An upscale LX version appeared in 1978, and in 1979 a four-door sedan was introduced along with a slightly more powerful, 1.8-liter engine and power steering. The Accord proved to be so popular that customers' vehicles sometimes increased in value within the first years of ownership. In all, 18,333 Accords were sold that first year, and by 1980, the Accord achieved annual sales of 185,972. By 1981, the last year for the first generation, a luxuriously-appointed Special Edition model appeared that included a leather interior, alloy wheels, power windows and a sound system with a cassette deck - incredible features during an era when manually-operated windows, vinyl seats and optional AM radio ruled the automotive industry.

At least BMW was including a radio as standard equipment by 1983!

[ilovejordanz]

to the OP:

you know the set of features are a rip off yet you and your dad(assuming thats who you ment when you say "old man") STILL bought the 3 series. That just goes to show BMW doesn't need to add anything to justify is starting MSRP on the car

[akhter]

This is silly.

The importer of BMW (BMW NA in this case) makes decisions on how to market the cars in each country.

For example, in Hong Kong, the base models are 320i & 323i and from 325i, they are luxury models.

I paid about 55k USD in HK for a 325i with the following as standard:
IDrive w/Nav
Leather
metallic paint
ipod/usb
front and rear pdc
17" wheels
Hifi stereo
trunk CD changer

this is considered entry level luxury in HK so that is how cars are sold. If I wanted a stripper e90, the 323i is there as is 320 for even lower.

I think it is great you can get a 35k BMW 328i in the US and add only the stuff you want.

If you compare BMWs with Honda feature list, you should be buying a Honda, because a lot of what you pay for are chassis and safety features that are standard in BMW. Well driving dynamics and safety and the sweet inline 6 shouldn't be priced like a honda/toyota. if it could be, then you would have 25k rwd toyotas and hondas already.

Would you rather they did it the BMW Hong Kong & Honda way where 328s would start at 45k and come loaded?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by akhter

...Would you rather they did it the BMW Hong Kong ...way where 328s would start at 45k and come loaded?

Well, sure, I think that's clear from my posting. I'd be paying an entry level luxury price and I'd be getting entry level luxury bits on the car.

I'd also be quite content with a 320 or 323 for the thing I prize most about BMWs -- the handling -- really has nothing to do with luxury.

And the truth is, I love my BMW and should the day come that I am forced to have but one car, it' would be a BMW.

[kaishang]

Not quite on that one - Australia has some of the most expensive "luxury" cars in the world. Try A$110,000 for a BMW 330, about US$95,000.

China isn't so hot either, a FWD Audi A4 is about US$50,000.

Originally Posted by tony20009

Sure if you convert the price to dollars, but you are correct, we do pay a slightly lower price in the main. (Australia and China excepted...) By and large, however, I have found that my peers in the UK and on the continent see the prices of BMWs -- at leat the 3er -- much as I see them here in the US. Certainly not cheap, but not hugely expensive and well within reach of most any professional. And for folks who will sacrifice some "stuff" to get a great drive, it's the choice to make, but it's a mildly extravagant choice given the price one pays and the things one doesn't get.

[WWONG]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I don't want your luxury "necessities".

I don't care what is "standard" on a Buick or Lexus.

I don't want leather, NAV, heated seats, fold down seats, alarm, CA, etc. None of it. Not the weight, the complexity, or the maintenance costs.

I just want the fastest, best handling, most fun 4-door sedan that I can afford. At $36k w/ZSP via ED, I got an incredible car, enhanced by a few good mods.

^ This is why BMW is charging for stuff that's standard on other cars, btw.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Not quite on that one - Australia has some of the most expensive "luxury" cars in the world. Try A$110,000 for a BMW 330, about US$95,000.

China isn't so hot either, a FWD Audi A4 is about US$50,000.

Right...that's what I said....I don't disagree with you.

The price we pay in the us is SLIGHTLY lower than elsewhere, except Australia and China, where the relevant comparative is EXTREMELY rather than SLIGHTLY.

Having lived/worked in China, I know about their so called luxury tax. Basically anything not made in China by a Chinese company for the Chinese market is deemed a luxury.

And as goes Australia, a poster here once explained the outrageously high taxes that make the prices of these cars sky rocket. It is preposterous that a 3er cost that much. It's a wonder to me why the citizens don't revolt, but perhaps they find it an acceptable means to protect their own automotive industry's jobs. I wonder on what other if any goods besides German cars the Australian government assess similarly super-high duty?

[kaishang]

Mmm, yes I did a few years in China as well. Chinese BMW/Audi/Merc etc prices are a bit high by world standards but not shockingly high. The BMWs and I think Audi and Merc as well are actually made in China for the Chinese market.

Australian prices are ridiculously high though. A 330d is literally A$110,000 drive away. The exchange rate is AUD1 = USD0.90, so the AUD is worth 90% of the USD.

A 535i/535d is about A$140,000 drive away.

Australians seem to think a 320i is the definition of luxury; a 535 is stratospheric.

The subject of Oz car prices has come up on Aus car blogs and when I've bitched about the price gouging, I get comments like "if you want a BMW you should be paying $30,000 in tax" or "we need the tax to protect the local industry". Infact the local industry doesn't even attempt to compete with BMW/Audi/Jag etc.

But it is not just the tax; BMW Australia is happy to price gouge as well by jacking up their profit margins such that the sale price is high even when you account for about 33% of it being tax. This is reflected in their marketing where the model name for a 330 diesel is "330d Exclusive". It's exclusive alright, because nobody can afford to pay $110,000 for what is a nice but still ordinary car in the USA or Europe. It makes you realise why I can go to the supermarket in Europe and see about 1-in-4 cars made by BMW or Mercedes etc, but in Oz there is only one European car in the whole parking lot.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

Originally Posted by tony20009

Right...that's what I said....I don't disagree with you.

The price we pay in the us is SLIGHTLY lower than elsewhere, except Australia and China, where the relevant comparative is EXTREMELY rather than SLIGHTLY.

Having lived/worked in China, I know about their so called luxury tax. Basically anything not made in China by a Chinese company for the Chinese market is deemed a luxury.

And as goes Australia, a poster here once explained the outrageously high taxes that make the prices of these cars sky rocket. It is preposterous that a 3er cost that much. It's a wonder to me why the citizens don't revolt, but perhaps they find it an acceptable means to protect their own automotive industry's jobs. I wonder on what other if any goods besides German cars the Australian government assess similarly super-high duty?

[Thud]

I wish an LSD was even an option today!

[woodpecka]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Mmm, yes I did a few years in China as well. Chinese BMW/Audi/Merc etc prices are a bit high by world standards but not shockingly high. The BMWs and I think Audi and Merc as well are actually made in China for the Chinese market.

Australian prices are ridiculously high though. A 330d is literally A$110,000 drive away. The exchange rate is AUD1 = USD0.90, so the AUD is worth 90% of the USD.

A 535i/535d is about A$140,000 drive away.

Australians seem to think a 320i is the definition of luxury; a 535 is stratospheric.

The subject of Oz car prices has come up on Aus car blogs and when I've bitched about the price gouging, I get comments like "if you want a BMW you should be paying $30,000 in tax" or "we need the tax to protect the local industry". Infact the local industry doesn't even attempt to compete with BMW/Audi/Jag etc.

But it is not just the tax; BMW Australia is happy to price gouge as well by jacking up their profit margins such that the sale price is high even when you account for about 33% of it being tax. This is reflected in their marketing where the model name for a 330 diesel is "330d Exclusive". It's exclusive alright, because nobody can afford to pay $110,000 for what is a nice but still ordinary car in the USA or Europe. It makes you realise why I can go to the supermarket in Europe and see about 1-in-4 cars made by BMW or Mercedes etc, but in Oz there is only one European car in the whole parking lot.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

This explain why their car prices are not show on their web site!

[mr.kobayashi]

Australian prices are ridiculously high though. A 330d is literally A$110,000 drive away. The exchange rate is AUD1 = USD0.90, so the AUD is worth 90% of the USD.

A 535i/535d is about A$140,000 drive away.

Australians seem to think a 320i is the definition of luxury; a 535 is stratospheric.

If you think this is bad, you should see Norway. The 316i is powerful/luxury there thanks to absurd taxes on HP and engines, prices are ~ $90,000USD for a 328i. But this is what happens when you have an apathetic electorate I guess. As for Norway, they are the 5th/8th largest oil exporter in the world but Norwegians aren't allowed to buy any of it thanks to hypocritical, nonsensical and out of controlled (leftist) government ministers (highest fuel prices in Europe + highest engine taxes).

AND this insane coalition was reelected to 5 more years in 2009, thanks to a big media brainwash (a la "Yes We Can") and an idiotic electorate... but I digress.

USA has the HIGHEST standard of living in the world. See BMW USA/Audi USA pricing et al.-