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Vishnu ST and Vargas TT BBQ Shootout
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03-31-2013, 01:45 PM | #89 |
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The reasons are typically that they are 1) not noticed or 2) its just not worth the time. It becomes more and more easy to just avoid forum drama unless you see obvious competitive deception, attacks, or the like that needs to be addressed. Even that is getting harder and harder to address because it seems most have their mind made up before even reading or understanding anything. They automatically discard everything as fear mongering sales tactics. The fact is that much of us have so much to learn, and those willing to enlighten us are chastised and counter attacked for sharing anything.
It is also unbelievable how such a tidbit of data by one or a few people can cause such creativity in widespread incorrect understandings, whereas indepth technical and/or factual bodies of valuable information can be discarded as tactics or sales pitches; typically by those who live and die by the tidbits of others. I've read through this thread, and quite frankly I agree with all technical posts that Shiv has made. And I think most any seasoned tuner knows this as well. You simply can not just retard timing through the floor and expect no negative impacts all for the sake of a great final pump gas figure. Not going to go deeper as there have been several posts above clearing much of that up. BUT at this point I do not think it is known how the timing was really dialed in for the runs right? Perhaps actually having that data could actually determine how far off the path the tune was if even at all? Where are the logs, there should be no exceptions to them being provided if all is kosher anyway... In the next couple weeks hopefully a couple of these cars can go head to head in a fair-as-possible situation to make some true comparisons. All in all, both the ST and TT look to be great options and both certainly will have pros and cons. Time will have to tell which Pros and which Cons are the most valuable to the consumer. Rob |
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03-31-2013, 01:50 PM | #90 |
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Exactly thats my point. Who cares. Vargas finally came out with the stage 3 and was the first one to do it. Instead of giving him a little bit of time to pride himself on his work and for people to read about it and see the initial numbers, Shiv came storming in there and turned it into a back and forth argument. And then he wants proof and screenshots? Gimme a break.
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03-31-2013, 01:53 PM | #91 |
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It has to be easy to settle this topic with no real effort. Just post the actual EGT logged during the test. No muss, no fuss, no drama, everybody wins.
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03-31-2013, 01:56 PM | #92 | |
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http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816426 I started that thread because Vargas posted incorrect information. And there is undeniable proof of it in that thread if you took the time to read it. Post #88 sums it up nicely. |
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03-31-2013, 01:57 PM | #93 | |
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If you want to get in on Sunday I'm allowed a crew of 3 (as is everyone else). Just an offer. We don't have to hate on each other like the people who won't actually buy any upgrades. See you around town. I'd love to check out the car.
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03-31-2013, 02:00 PM | #94 | |
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03-31-2013, 02:08 PM | #95 | |
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If I can find someone to watch my kids (wife out of town same weekend) I will definitely take you up on that offer. |
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03-31-2013, 02:12 PM | #96 | |
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03-31-2013, 02:16 PM | #97 |
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03-31-2013, 02:20 PM | #98 | |
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03-31-2013, 02:22 PM | #99 | ||
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03-31-2013, 02:23 PM | #100 |
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03-31-2013, 02:27 PM | #101 |
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You think he might be ignoring the requests for supporting data?
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03-31-2013, 02:29 PM | #102 |
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Pretty sure shiv had external widebands on his pre-ST car. Was any tangible data gathered? Obviously there must have been some sort of revelation to suddenly have concerns regarding EGT.
Did you happen to gather any data on the old rev2 units running a 13.5 AFR floor? That was publicly stated to be adequate and the latest rage at the time. Since your unit could only pull 4degrees and all of your customers cars knocked due to cylinder temperatures, those cars ran some high EGTs for many years, but was fine back then. Any more data shiv? |
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03-31-2013, 02:31 PM | #103 |
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03-31-2013, 02:31 PM | #104 | |
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Too everyone else, Happy Easter guys, I hope you don't mind if I stay out of the forum BS for a while. I just don't have the energy to do it over and over. Small update, the car hasn't reported a single issue, not a CEL, not a limp, nothing in 2-3 weeks of DD driving around the bay area, and some very hard driving as well. I will be installing an EGT probe pre turbo before we tune for big power, this in my mind 100% needed. Our in house gauge is a dual boost and EGT and we believe they are both equally important, EGT can tell you so much about what a certain set up is doing. We use EGT probes and gauges from an aircraft gauge company that has an EGT response the blows away anything I have ever seen in an automotive application. When we tested them, our gauge was already coming back down after lifting and the other gauges were still going up. The EGT in my truck can actually swing faster then the boost gauge sometimes, thats how sensitive it is. As far as I am concerned an EGT in a DP is a waste of time, you want the prob as close to the exhaust valve as physically possible. So Shiv please make sure to let us know your EGT probe location when providing EGT numbers. Last edited by Tony@vargasturbotech; 03-31-2013 at 02:49 PM.. |
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03-31-2013, 02:34 PM | #105 |
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We have seen close to 1700F temps at 25psi/670whp. And that is with methanol and 7-13 deg of advance. With half that advance (no meth, same boost, 570whp), we would probably see close to 2000F by the end of a 4th gear pull. Never had the guts to test it though. Only time we ran that much boost without methanol was on accident (I was overseas and gave the dyno operator wrong user adjustable set-up info). The car made over 500whp (on Mustang Dyno). The lumpier torque curve and flat top end power made it immediately clear that something was wrong. I believe this was on CaptainInsano's car... sorry
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03-31-2013, 02:35 PM | #107 | |
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And I'll restate: Among tuners, there is no glory in glory/world record pump gas power numbers. They represent tunes that are inherently unstable. And they are almost always done intentionally on shop cars for obvious reasons. Why would we brag about an lumpy power curve when we have results (with meth) that are smoother, more stable and a lot stronger? From the start, we stated that methanol was key to keeping this engine happy/thermally managed at higher boost levels. It's the only way (other than race gas/e85) that you are going to get the engine to run close enough to MBT at the high boost we all want big singles/twins to run at. From an engineering/tuning standpoint, this is 100% true. We don't play the game of pushing something until it blows just to get a big number. But for us, with this many single turbo customers on the road, it's not worth it to give this message. To this day, I tell everyone of our ST customers keep boost below 20psi on pump gas. Yes, they are leaving power on the table. And yes, they can run more boost if timing is retarded a bunch. But there is a very clear downside to doing so and it's been explained by myself and others. Tony, I've been doing this for 20 years now. I am well beyond the point of trying to stir the waters here. Just saying and doing things that I've been doing for a VERY long time. Shiv Last edited by OpenFlash; 03-31-2013 at 02:50 PM.. |
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03-31-2013, 02:36 PM | #108 |
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So Shiv, where is the EGT data from your car's single kit? I'd like to see the proof, not theoretical numbers, or numbers simply said by you. During testing, did you have EGT probes in your manifolds? If you did/do I as well as many others would appreciate the data. Many work off hard data, not speculation as I know you and a few others do quite well.
Please don't try and dance around this question, because I am genuinely curious what kind of EGT's your kit produces. Surely is such a refined kit with a year of testing you should have this data. In addition to this, I would appreciate it if you, or any single turbo customer, could post up their DYNOJET sheets running pure 91 octane with no meth injection. I'm curious to see the numbers such a refined turbo kit puts out under this condition. I don't want to hear a lecture about converting from Mustang etc, I just want to see the numbers if you could please provide. I'm actually tempted on purchasing that used Vishnu single kit that's been out there for months now. But I want to see data before I decide. |
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03-31-2013, 02:38 PM | #109 | |
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03-31-2013, 02:46 PM | #110 | |
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http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=741694 Have a good one.
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