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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
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FMIC Comparison - Data Compilation
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04-03-2010, 05:14 PM | #177 |
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I just want to open peoples eyes as to the realities of the FMIC landscape and things to look for in regards to real data vs marketing hype... Interestingly enough i use a very good turbo outlet temp calculator that also generates a FMIC efficiency using data that is provided in this thread that answers your ?'s about starting and ending temps.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm using this calculator with the provided data we can see how efficient each unit is in a real world situation and is all based in Physics Law(an exact science). heres the data i got using the calculator, feel free to try it yourself its actually very eye opening. When designing a FMIC I use this during prototyping to determine the best balance of internal fin density and charge row/ambient row height as we don't use an "off the shelf" core! Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator inlet temperature-(use the ambient temperature to standardize the test) input pressure-14.5(atmospheric pressure this does not change unless you are at altitude) output pressure-(this is the boost pressure seen prior to the fmic, add pressure drop plus datalogged pressure for this #) compressor efficiency-70%(this can be found by mapping the #'s on a compressor map OR to datalog intercooler inlet temps, lets use 70% to standardize the testing as all are running similar boost levels) Outlet Temp- (this is the temperature leaving the turbo and entering the FMIC) Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator IC input Temperature-(this is the Outlet Temp from the previous calculation) IC Efficiency-(This is the how efficient the FMIC is in this test, it is also the factor you play with to try and match up to the known plenum temp(ending datalogged ait at the end of the run)) IC Pressure loss-.5 (this is the pressure drop through the core, lets use .5 psi to standardize the test) Ambient Temp-(this is the ambient temp and also the turbo inlet temp) Plenum Temp-(this is the datalogged ait temp at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run) now lets crunch the #'s... HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator inlet temperature-85 input pressure-14.5 output pressure-14 compressor efficiency-70% Outlet Temp- 249 Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator IC input Temperature-249 IC Pressure loss-.5 Ambient Temp-85 Plenum Temp-108 IC Efficiency-86% AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator inlet temperature-58 input pressure-14.5 output pressure-14 compressor efficiency-70% Outlet Temp- 214 Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator IC input Temperature-214 IC Pressure loss-.5 Ambient Temp-58 Plenum Temp-112 IC Efficiency-79% ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 78% through 3 gears Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator inlet temperature-58 input pressure-14.5 output pressure-14.5 compressor efficiency-70% Outlet Temp- 213 Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator IC input Temperature-213 IC Pressure loss-.5 Ambient Temp-58 Plenum Temp-93 IC Efficiency-78% SPEARCO/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator inlet temperature-65 input pressure-14.5 output pressure-14 compressor efficiency-70% Outlet Temp- 223 Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator IC input Temperature-223 IC Pressure loss-.5 Ambient Temp-65 Plenum Temp-139 IC Efficiency-54% What this data shows is the efficency and also the FMICs ability to thwart heatsoak through 2-3-4 gears, you can also get single gear efficiencies using the data provided Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-05-2010 at 10:30 AM.. |
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04-10-2010, 11:50 PM | #179 |
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I'm waiting for my HPF to arrive. HPF and Helix should perform very similarly I would think....
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04-11-2010, 03:38 AM | #180 |
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What about the CP-E One?
They recently released the Whitepapers on their new unit with integrated OC. Maybe enough info to add it to the list? I like the design and had a pretty good read on the Whitepapers and its kinda cheap aswell....under 1k$ with OC.. |
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04-12-2010, 06:33 PM | #182 |
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I have the HPF but would need some time and a laptop that doesnt drop the COM port midway thru a log....
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05-05-2010, 10:31 AM | #183 | |
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C'mon guys its warm everywhere, we STILL need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:
-stock factory intercooler -HPF -AA -RPI -VK -Stett -forge -Agency Power please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing! log boost, ait and rpm and note ambient temperature at time of test! Quote:
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05-14-2010, 05:38 PM | #186 |
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Can't wait for all the data, lol. Got anxious by reading this thread and I just bit the bullet and bought one from Mike@N54Tuning. I went with Helix, because sooo many people have them and are happy. I think that there are a lot of good ones here but I don't see other vendors or manufacturers chiming in like Bullett to provide some insightful data.
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05-14-2010, 08:26 PM | #188 |
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I would just like to verify the pressure drop between the inter coolers... I don't think that using a static .5 represents very much in terms of numbers. You can have a highly efficient cooler that causes a loss in power. Efficiency is only part of the equation, and it requires accurate input such as precise compressor efficiency, pressure drop and identical boost levels done on identical tunes/maps etc. I'm sure I could skew these results legitimately just choosing the tune and day and the way I run my test or where my probes are installed.
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05-14-2010, 11:41 PM | #189 |
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lol these results are funny cause they are impossible. The helix has a 86% efficiency with a .5psi pressure drop. Yeaaa lol ok.
From the vendors post turbo outlet temperature 228 degrees F(estimated using a 63 degree ambient and 65% compressor efficiency at 13.5 psi) AIT temp- 75 degrees F - 54 degree drop over stock pre and post intercooler temp drop- 153 degrees F Intercooler efficiency- 93% - 33% improvement in efficiency over stock Core pressure drop spec is .5psi at 450hp(600cfm) airflow Can you explain how you estimated outlet temperature without rpm? Also please post compressor map you are using. Like stated above 93% efficiency with .5 psi pressure drop is simply impossible Last edited by Clap135; 05-14-2010 at 11:56 PM.. |
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05-15-2010, 06:30 PM | #191 | |
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Using this calculator and the data provided, which is totally fair an representative of all the independant fmic datalogs is how these intercooler efficiency %'s are figured out! What the numbers show are each intercoolers efficiency percentages at the end of a 2-3-4 gear run using the ending temp at the end of the run! Th compressor efficiency is calculated from data that has been posted on compressor outlet temperatures! As far as pressure drop our core specs are .5 psi pressure drop at 450hp flow, Shiv did a comparo between the helix and 2 other aftermarket fmics and even he was impressed how much better the helix was in comparison in regards to pressure drop and the ability to thwart heat soak... But why?
- the helix has 13 charge rows other fmics have 7-8 - helix has an ambient face 56% larger than stock, where some others are stock or slightly larger -the exposed ambient face( the area exposed to air flow not under the plastic cowl is 70% larger than some competitors, many fmics make the face larger under the cowl not exposed to direct airflow! - helix uses a custom core built specifically for this platform, we don't use an off the shelf core IE we are not stuck with what's available or what works! -since we have 5-6 more charge rows we can use a much higher density fin pack without causing pressure drop issues. -the mass of the helix fmic is the highest on the market this mass holds off heatsoak longer than a lighter fmic! I hope this explains some things o for you! We have sold over 200 fmics and everyone who has independently tested has datalogged this impossible data! Quote:
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05-16-2010, 12:17 AM | #192 |
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So can you post the compressor map? Also wierd how you can estimate a outlet temp with out actual engine rpm, but your a vendor for helix so you're forgiven lol
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05-16-2010, 07:01 AM | #193 |
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the outlet % is not estimated its taken from a datalogged outlet temp with rpm from a vendors post (this actual end outlet temp is how we come to the compressor efficiency and using the log you could actually map the compressor at that boost level) I dont know what beef you have with Helix, but all of these computations come from independant datalogs and are 100% fair and representative of each fmic at the end of a 2-3-4 gear run,all of these fmics are subject to the same criteria as much of it does not vary.) this calculator is based in the laws of physics and is unbiased and pretty damn accurate as well, the use of independant end user logs takes away any vendor BS... I see you are running CP-E stuff can you do some 2-3-4 gear testing? post all the data for everyone to see since there is no independant CPe data posted on this thread yet.
Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-16-2010 at 07:08 AM.. |
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05-16-2010, 08:29 AM | #194 | |
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05-16-2010, 10:26 AM | #195 | |
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BTW heres the pic of the compressor outlet temps: Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-16-2010 at 10:39 AM.. |
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05-16-2010, 11:25 AM | #196 | |
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05-16-2010, 12:04 PM | #197 | |
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That's cute, but what does it have to do wth compressor maps and your inter cooler? You are basing your entire argument on IAT'S which is sort of funny because IAT'S arn't the only important thing. Flow is another one, yours looks like lego blocks welded together. So once again, please show data for your inter cooler and these turbo efficiency numbers you came up with. Show the actual compressor map, show data showing your .5 psi drop, and then show the logs that show the IAT difference. Typing in arbitrary numbers into an online calculator isn't answering any of my questions. |
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05-16-2010, 05:41 PM | #198 | |
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According to Terry, it's not all about IAT numbers when testing an intercooler. Reference Flow and pressure drop is also important. Increased flow allows for more boost than IAT's. Reference According to the calculated efficiency results posted earlier (and if the data is indeed reliable), it appears three of the FMIC's so far perform relatively similarly (within 8%) in reducing IAT. However, I've been concerned about how well the Helix FMIC flows even with their updated design due to its stepped structure. Air does not turn well around sharp bends, especially around 90 degree angles, so there must be turbulence generated around this stepped area within the endtanks which will negatively affect overall flow. Just based upon physical appearance, it seems the HPF and AMS should have the best flow within their endtanks, which are curved without sharp angles. I personally like the HPF endtanks the best...its curves look the smoothest for the least amount of air turbulence IMHO. Of course, the flow through the core is another important aspect, but this can't really be judged based on looks. We need testing and data for this. |
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