[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by TMR

everything looks good but i dont understand one ting. I have dynoed my car on a mustang and also on a dynojet as well as a dynapack and have never seen the wirdness you are getting up top. But hey, if it drives strong and works good, it definitely looks promising. I wish they could work up some boost limit in 1st like i use with the RevII.

Like always, keep up the good work MR 5.

check out nick@aeperformance's original giac flash intro post, he explains the oscillation. it has to do with GIAC creating the flash on their mustang dyno which is load-bearing (and more real world like) than a dynojet. If you look at their mustang dyno plots it's perfectly smooth.. and I can attest, you don't feel the oscillation you see on the dynojet in real life. I just got a ride last weekend

[335xiR]

Wow, nice write up. GIAC is the way to go ! !

Can't wait for stage 2 to come out and see the powaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Zeph]

Just getting rid of shift delays and holding power up top is enough to get me to buy a GIAC. The superior TQ curve, lower boost requirements, and "safer" looking AFR's is all a bonus. I see no point in comparing it to "map 12" or whatever because my car isn't a dyno queen, it is for doing laps on a track. I don't think you could run 20 laps at Barber's on some 17psi map on stock turbos. If the heat doesn't get you, SOMETHING else will...

[DefBringer]

(I say this in the most respectful manner I can think of)

Surely I am not the only person here who thinks the GIAC flash is not a viable solution for people who care about their BMW warranty?

This is the huge elephant in the room that keeps getting swept under the carpet in these GIAC threads.

I would like for someone at GIAC to address this issue and/or discuss when a reflash tool be made available for those of us who need to take our cars into BMW service.

I'd prefer a flash to a piggyback but I'll be damned if I am going to drop $150 for unflash/reflash each time I have to take my car in for an oil change.

[DerekMD07]

Originally Posted by DefBringer

(I say this in the most respectful manner I can think of)

Surely I am not the only person here who thinks the GIAC flash is not a viable solution for people who care about their BMW warranty?

This is the huge elephant in the room that keeps getting swept under the carpet in these GIAC threads.

I would like for someone at GIAC to address this issue and/or discuss when a reflash tool be made available for those of us who need to take our cars into BMW service.

I'd prefer a flash to a piggyback but I'll be damned if I am going to drop $150 for unflash/reflash each time I have to take my car in for an oil change.

I second that opinion. I would get GIAC in a heartbeat if this question is addressed adequately. Obviously, 70 bucks for each flash and time spent to do it make GIAC a NOT viable alternative.

[alextremo]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

From the way I understand it is this...
The dynojet is an inertia dyno. There is no load on that dyno. When on the road, the faster you go, the more force is on the car to try to slow it down. The GIAC flash was developed on a mustang dyno, which simulates actual forces that are applied to a car on the road. So, it looks like the software is confused because the wheels are spinning too easily for the actual speed and acceleration of the car. This does not happen on the road.

Can you feel or hear anything when this happens on the dynojet? Is this normal activity with other GIAC tuned cars (Audi/Porsche) on dynojets?

Would be interesting to see some BT logs of this happening, as well as mustang pulls and street runs w/GIAC flash.

[jippii ensio]

Because of all these speculations, I did a test last week when I had a scheduled oil change. I sealed my OBD-port using a very small strip of an invisible tape in a way that it could not be noticed and that I would have noticed if the port would have been touched.

The port had not been touched. So removing tune for oil change would have been waste of time. I believe it is a cost item for a dealership and they avoid doing anything extra. My SA has never noticed my piggies. We are good friends, he would have mentioned it I don't plan to tell about my turbo upgrade either. Let's see if they will notice something at some point of tuning I'll keep you updated

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by alextremo

Can you feel or hear anything when this happens on the dynojet? Is this normal activity with other GIAC tuned cars (Audi/Porsche) on dynojets?

Would be interesting to see some BT logs of this happening, as well as mustang pulls and street runs w/GIAC flash.

check nick@aeperformance's original GIAC thread.. he explains this and shows dynos of his car on the mustang (smooth) and dynojet. (and I've been in his car, the dynojet oscillations aren't there in the real world)

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Looks like some great data, but what is with comparing to other cars? Can you compare with your JB3 runs last week as I'm curious as to the boost differences, etc. Also would like to see a comparison to your best ever JB3 run (390rw?) just to see the differences.

PS found them

Here is your comparison runs against JB3 1.0 same car on 91 octane. The JB3 1.0 map in terms of top end is very similar to map 5 or 7, for those that are interested in what that might look like.

Without lid:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1250994502

Stock airbox:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1250994502

1st--Why not see the comparison of what other cars are doing on the same dynojet? I honestly think that a Procede stage 3, completely catless, Intake, etc is a good comparison to my car. Or, are you talking about the comparison to the other JB3 member? The only other dynos that I have are with 100 octane but why would I compare it to that? GIAC WILL, and I repeat, WILL have a race gas map, so at that time, there will be some comparisons with the race gas for sure.

2nd--I didn't do any boost logs when i was testing the intakes because I was only concerned about the IATs and power.
But, I will put together a comparison of the power difference between the best run of the DCIs and the best run of the OEM box to satisfy your request.
It's not going to differentiate that much from what I posted though.

I'm not sugur coating anything or trying to hide anything. I'm posting facts, and from what I believe, these are good comparisons.

Originally Posted by DefBringer

(I say this in the most respectful manner I can think of)

Surely I am not the only person here who thinks the GIAC flash is not a viable solution for people who care about their BMW warranty?

This is the huge elephant in the room that keeps getting swept under the carpet in these GIAC threads.

I would like for someone at GIAC to address this issue and/or discuss when a reflash tool be made available for those of us who need to take our cars into BMW service.

I'd prefer a flash to a piggyback but I'll be damned if I am going to drop $150 for unflash/reflash each time I have to take my car in for an oil change.

I understand your concern, and I probably should have addressed this in the intial post. GIAC claims absolute diagnostic invisibility. I agree that there is some concern about the warrantys but IMO this is what's going to happen--

Tech works on car
Tech finishes car and finds no faults
Tech drives car and it feel really good!
Tech checks again to make sure no faul play
Tech doesn't find anything
Returns to customer

Originally Posted by alextremo

Can you feel or hear anything when this happens on the dynojet? Is this normal activity with other GIAC tuned cars (Audi/Porsche) on dynojets?

Would be interesting to see some BT logs of this happening, as well as mustang pulls and street runs w/GIAC flash.

I'll let GIAC answer that one, but I believe that the BMW was a very rare bread with cracking and controling the software.

[alextremo]

I remember that thread - I think the explanation was the same, that it doesn't show up on a load bearing dyno or the street.

Just trying to figure out what's going on with the car when this happens (pulling timing/ throttle closure/etc) and that it is intentional behavior caused by the flash because of the unlikely combination of WOT/high RPM and low load.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Looks like some great data, but what is with comparing to other cars? Can you compare with your JB3 runs last week as I'm curious as to the boost differences, etc. Also would like to see a comparison to your best ever JB3 run (390rw?) just to see the differences.

PS found them

Here is your comparison runs against JB3 1.0 same car on 91 octane. The JB3 1.0 map in terms of top end is very similar to map 5 or 7, for those that are interested in what that might look like.

Without lid:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1250994502

Stock airbox:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1250994502

As mentioned in the other thread though, I wanted to find out what happened to that map? This is JB3 1.0 so if it was that good then where is it now? Yes, I acknowledge that the map used in that run was great but where did it go?

Here are the comparisons that you want to see.
1st is GIAC with the best run of map 3 with DCIs
2nd is GIAC with the best run of map 3 with OEM box. (better comparison)

[Prince ///M]

If you look at the compressor flow maps you can notice that more than 11psi above 6500 rpm are not a good idea on stock turbos.

If you care about those little 200.000 rpm bastards, probably you need to lower boost levels above 6000rpm.

It is quite strange that GIAC don't use high boost values where it is possible to do it safely (15 psi @ 3500 rpm) and overtress the turbos near the redline.

BTW the AF ratios look way better then Procede and Jb3 ones

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by DerekMD07

I second that opinion. I would get GIAC in a heartbeat if this question is addressed adequately. Obviously, 70 bucks for each flash and time spent to do it make GIAC a NOT viable alternative.

So if you have an issue that requires a progman update (new control unit, etc), you go back and have the GIAC dealer flash your car back to stock where it was before you brought it in? Do they have the ability to read your stock DME, and keep your stock flash on file?

Then you go back to the dealership (hopefully knowing in advance that they plan on reflashing your car). Then after the car is repaired, you go back to the GIAC dealer and they will reflash it with their software again? Will they have the software level that is necessary to communicate with the new control unit, that might be installed? And does the GIAC dealer have the ability to reflash to the level which will make all the control units in the car communicate without issues?

Secondly, during reprogramming a vehicle, a percentage of DMEs, Control Units, ($$$$ parts) may lock up. Locked up DMEs get sent right back to BMW for repair. Does the GIAC dealership have the ability to repair these various control units or deal with the associated damages? And does the GIAC software fool the dealership DME flash count numbers?

[rolling18]

just a dumb question...

For these tunes/ piggy backs that promise/ gaurantee "invisibility" or whatever to diagnostics or service at the BMW Dealer, what happens if the dealer FINDS the tune/ evidence of the tune?

does the tuner give a refund? do they pay for the repair? do they pay for your warranty?

i mean.. how does the tuner back up their claims of invisibility, unnoticable, or whatever term they use???

im currently shopping and researching getting one of these tunes Very soon and i dont want to get skrewed and have warranty cancelled! for a few hundred dollar tune (any brand/ tuner)

[stressdoc]

Like most others on this list, I am very interested in the GIAC flash.

As far as I assess from Craig's and other's reviews, the flash is a home run performance-wise for the characteristics that are my priorities. But I still have a few concerns.

First, I expressed concern in a post about the 5k rpm oscillations when I saw the first dyno last week. Nick's response was a start, but a full explanation of the mechanisms involved, i.e., what in the coding results in an algorithm with that response to the dynojet that is different from other tunes, would be comforting. E.g., is timing pulled, etc. I am too naïve to speculate what the specific mechanisms are. I believe the reports that this does not happen in street use, but I still want to understand what exactly is going on with the fluctuation on the Dynojet.

Second, although the flash is invisible to the dealer with their limited diagnostics, absolute complete invisibility to BMW is not possible, as Austin noted. If BMW goes to the extreme -- and this is a real extreme -- of reading code and looking for discrepancies then a flash can be detected. But this is extremely unlikely to happen in everyday service. I agree with the 'take car in, tech road tests car, it seems like it is running great, he/she feels good about the good care they have provided the customer' scenario. There is no cost to the tech/SA/Dealer of failing to detect tune, so they are not going to be wasting time looking for the flash. And BMW doesn't really want to get into the snooping business anyway. OTOH, if your car has a catastrophic failure, then things could get complicated, because BMW is going to want to know wtf happened. The failure analysis crew is going to have the tools necessary to put the ECU under the digital microscope. Moral of the story? If you flash, I would suggest taking good care of your engine and drivetrain.

Some of the great attributes of the GIAC flash appear retro to the feel of the original Progman software. I can attest, having a week one production manual tranny E90 335, that the original software rocked. Minimal lag, no soft shifts, pure visceral BAMM tire smoking power. And then the actuator rod problem and other issues that could affect long term reliability of the turbos came to light, and the quick fix was the dreaded 29.2 lag software. Part of this fix involves modulating wastegate closure during manual shifting to damp down the pressure surges that can cause problems for the turbos and other components of the engine. The reduced power output of the BMW Performance kit for manual transmissions (20Nm less that the slushbox version) may also partly reflect this issue. So the GIAC flash may be something of a double-edged sword, providing the kick and feel that we originally bought our 335s for and that caused us to fall so deeply in love with our engines -- only to have BMW neuter her with Progman 29.2, viz the nearly quarter million hits that thread on E90post has gotten -- but at the cost of lowered long term reliability. Whether this will trigger some accountant's balance sheet alarm bells or not, resulting in more active ECU monitoring and warranty denial, is yet to be determined. Again, the better care we take of our cars and the less damaging conditions we expose them to, the less likely BMW is to pursue modders.

The third issue is a GIAC dealer concern. How convenient is service? How far away is the nearest center? How much do they charge? How good is the reflash to stock? Hopefully these concerns will be resolved shortly.

[kptaylor]

Originally Posted by Prince ///M

If you look at the compressor flow maps you can notice that more than 11psi above 6500 rpm are not a good idea on stock turbos.

If you care about those little 200.000 rpm bastards, probably you need to lower boost levels above 6000rpm.

It is quite strange that GIAC don't use high boost values where it is possible to do it safely (15 psi @ 3500 rpm) and overtress the turbos near the redline.

BTW the AF ratios look way better then Procede and Jb3 ones

That's what I was thinking, too. (turbo efficiency) Regarding the A/F's, I thought DI made it possible to run leaner than non DI cars in the past required. Wonder if adding more fuel has a big impact on exhaust temps or power.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by rolling18

just a dumb question...

For these tunes/ piggy backs that promise/ gaurantee "invisibility" or whatever to diagnostics or service at the BMW Dealer, what happens if the dealer FINDS the tune/ evidence of the tune?

does the tuner give a refund? do they pay for the repair? do they pay for your warranty?

i mean.. how does the tuner back up their claims of invisibility, unnoticable, or whatever term they use???

im currently shopping and researching getting one of these tunes Very soon and i dont want to get skrewed and have warranty cancelled! for a few hundred dollar tune (any brand/ tuner)

You are the ideal candidate to get the BMW Performance Power Kit

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Second, although the flash is invisible to the dealer with their limited diagnostics, absolute complete invisibility to BMW is not possible, as Austin noted. If BMW goes to the extreme -- and this is a real extreme -- of reading code and looking for discrepancies then a flash can be detected. But this is extremely unlikely to happen in everyday service. I agree with the 'take car in, tech road tests car, it seems like it is running great, he/she feels good about the good care they have provided the customer' scenario. There is no cost to the tech/SA/Dealer of failing to detect tune, so they are not going to be wasting time looking for the flash. And BMW doesn't really want to get into the snooping business anyway. OTOH, if your car has a catastrophic failure, then things could get complicated, because BMW is going to want to know wtf happened. The failure analysis crew is going to have the tools necessary to put the ECU under the digital microscope. Moral of the story? If you flash, I would suggest taking good care of your engine and drivetrain.

You bring up some good points doc, but let's think about what I highlighted in bold. If BMW really wanted to find out what happened, then they would be able to find anything, and I repeat...ANYTHING.
Let's bring up the piggies. BMW knows where they are located and how they are connected so all they would have to look at is scratches at the ECU clips or tape residue on the wires for non pnp devices.
All they have to say is faul play with the ECU and deny whatever claim.

No matter what, once the flash loader comes out, I really think that's going to be the game changer.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

You bring up some good points doc, but let's think about what I highlighted in bold. If BMW really wanted to find out what happened, then they would be able to find anything, and I repeat...ANYTHING.
Let's bring up the piggies. BMW knows where they are located and how they are connected so all they would have to look at is scratches at the ECU clips or tape residue on the wires for non pnp devices.
All they have to say is faul play with the ECU and deny whatever claim.

No matter what, once the flash loader comes out, I really think that's going to be the game changer.

I agree completely.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Like most others on this list, I am very interested in the GIAC flash.

As far as I assess from Craig's and other's reviews, the flash is a home run performance-wise for the characteristics that are my priorities. But I still have a few concerns.

First, I expressed concern in a post about the 5k rpm oscillations when I saw the first dyno last week. Nick's response was a start, but a full explanation of the mechanisms involved, i.e., what in the coding results in an algorithm with that response to the dynojet that is different from other tunes, would be comforting. E.g., is timing pulled, etc. I am too naïve to speculate what the specific mechanisms are. I believe the reports that this does not happen in street use, but I still want to understand what exactly is going on with the fluctuation on the Dynojet.

Second, although the flash is invisible to the dealer with their limited diagnostics, absolute complete invisibility to BMW is not possible, as Austin noted. If BMW goes to the extreme -- and this is a real extreme -- of reading code and looking for discrepancies then a flash can be detected. But this is extremely unlikely to happen in everyday service. I agree with the 'take car in, tech road tests car, it seems like it is running great, he/she feels good about the good care they have provided the customer' scenario. There is no cost to the tech/SA/Dealer of failing to detect tune, so they are not going to be wasting time looking for the flash. And BMW doesn't really want to get into the snooping business anyway. OTOH, if your car has a catastrophic failure, then things could get complicated, because BMW is going to want to know wtf happened. The failure analysis crew is going to have the tools necessary to put the ECU under the digital microscope. Moral of the story? If you flash, I would suggest taking good care of your engine and drivetrain.

Some of the great attributes of the GIAC flash appear retro to the feel of the original Progman software. I can attest, having a week one production manual tranny E90 335, that the original software rocked. Minimal lag, no soft shifts, pure visceral BAMM tire smoking power. And then the actuator rod problem and other issues that could affect long term reliability of the turbos came to light, and the quick fix was the dreaded 29.2 lag software. Part of this fix involves modulating wastegate closure during manual shifting to damp down the pressure surges that can cause problems for the turbos and other components of the engine. The reduced power output of the BMW Performance kit for manual transmissions (20Nm less that the slushbox version) may also partly reflect this issue. So the GIAC flash may be something of a double-edged sword, providing the kick and feel that we originally bought our 335s for and that caused us to fall so deeply in love with our engines -- only to have BMW neuter her with Progman 29.2, viz the nearly quarter million hits that thread on E90post has gotten -- but at the cost of lowered long term reliability. Whether this will trigger some accountant's balance sheet alarm bells or not, resulting in more active ECU monitoring and warranty denial, is yet to be determined. Again, the better care we take of our cars and the less damaging conditions we expose them to, the less likely BMW is to pursue modders.

The third issue is a GIAC dealer concern. How convenient is service? How far away is the nearest center? How much do they charge? How good is the reflash to stock? Hopefully these concerns will be resolved shortly.

Excellent points!

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Prince ///M

If you look at the compressor flow maps you can notice that more than 11psi above 6500 rpm are not a good idea on stock turbos.

If you care about those little 200.000 rpm bastards, probably you need to lower boost levels above 6000rpm.

It is quite strange that GIAC don't use high boost values where it is possible to do it safely (15 psi @ 3500 rpm) and overtress the turbos near the redline.

BTW the AF ratios look way better then Procede and Jb3 ones

It's interesting that you say this because I just had a talk with Drew about this. Let's think about this for a second...
If we just think about Turbos spinning, why would it matter if a turbo spins to make 14 psi boost at 2k rpm instead of 14 psi boost at 7k rpm?
It might be bad on the motor but why would it be different for the turbo?
This is why the AtoFs are so rich up top to keep the engine cool and safe for the higher boost.

[Terrance28]

I gotta see what the stage 2 and 2+ do. It looks good so far.