[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

No reported failures does not mean No actual failures... and you could not possibly know if there are unreported incidents.

How many people have you ever seen come on a forum or to a BMW event and advertise they had to buy a new engine because they used an improper engine oil and their warranty would not pay for the replacement engine? Most people don't advertise their costly mistakes.

My car company contacts with firsthand warranty knowledge tell me they have declined engine warranties for destroyed engines with Amsoil or other non-approved oil in them and that the customer had to pay for the new engine. I'd say that's a pretty strong reason to use the proper approved oil for your engine.

Go try to find a "Amsoil oil blew my engine" on the internet in general. You won't. Infact I challange you to find any post saying "X" oil blew my engine. You won't find it.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

No reported failures does not mean No actual failures... and you could not possibly know if there are unreported incidents.

How many people have you ever seen come on a forum or to a BMW event and advertise they had to buy a new engine because they used an improper engine oil and their warranty would not pay for the replacement engine? Most people don't advertise their costly mistakes.

My car company contacts with firsthand warranty knowledge tell me they have declined engine warranties for destroyed engines with Amsoil or other non-approved oil in them and that the customer had to pay for the new engine. I'd say that's a pretty strong reason to use the proper approved oil for your engine.

Track rat, and cb111 fighting about engine oil again? then again, whatelse is new right? Here's the 411:
BMW Germany recommendeds PAO Based European Castrol Edge 5W30 available only at the dealership for the N54. Here are the pictures as promised:

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Track rat, and cb111 fighting about engine oil again? then again, whatelse is new right? Here's the 411:
BMW Germany recommendeds PAO Based European Castrol Edge 5W30 available only at the dealership for the N54. Here are the pictures as promised:

So the dealership in the US will order that oil for you LL04 (I've read when that PT# is entered in the dealerships computers it returns the PT# for the current BMW branded LL01 oil)? The PT# on my diesel 07510037195 is for the good 'ol Castrol SLX. Go figure. LOL

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

That is PRECISELY the point... People who blew their engine from running an improper oil aren't likely to stand up and announce to the world that their poor judgment cost them thousands of dollars for a new engine, but it happens more than you might want to know.

That is why I indicated that my car company contacts who have first hand knowledge of these incidents feel badly for the fools who insist on using non-approved oils and suffer the financial consequences because they got suckered by advertising hype. No one has yet explained to me exactly what benefit they think they will get from using these hyped non-approved oils...

As I tell people all the time, you are free to use whatever oil makes you happy as long as you are willing to accept the consequences for your actions. Your new vehicle warranty specifies exactly what oil you must use. Use of a non-approved oil most definitely can void your new vehicle engine warranty and damage your engine. Do what makes you happy - as long as you understand the consequences of your actions.

Indy BMW technicians (BIMR.org) almost all use Redline or Amsoil, and trust me, if there was a problem they would not use them. Ever. And you would hear about it, maybe not from the owner, but you would hear about it from the shop which made the repair. IJS

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Socom

Indy BMW technicians (BIMR.org) almost all use Redline or Amsoil, and trust me, if there was a problem they would not use them. Ever. And you would hear about it, maybe not from the owner, but you would hear about it from the shop which made the repair. IJS

Why? Because you said so?

The FACT is that using unapproved lubricants will cause you warranty issues if you have a related problem. Since there is no logical reason to not use approved lubricants, I really fail to understand the fanaticism about using redline, AMsoil or RP.

At best, you won't see a difference (if the unapproved lubricant comes close to meeting the specs) and at worst you'll blow something up.

The bottom line is very simple.

You should always use approved lubricants. Failure to do so may harm your wallet.

Do what you like, but please don't try to convince people that it is OK to use unapproved lubricants.

Since you and Turkeybaster always have to have the last word, I'll get out of this thread and let you two try to discredit me with wild assertions. Good luck.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

You just don't get it do you? Indy BMW represents a sample of what 50-100 cars per year?

Exactly what benefit do you perceive that you are getting from using a non-BMW approved oil and how are you scientifically and objectively confirming this benefit? How do these techs confirm they are getting a benefit from using a non-BMW approved oil? Are they conducting the BMW LL-01 oil sequence and durability testing that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for each oil type or are they providing their unscientific, baseless, subjective opinions, like you?

Your problem is you believe the ad hype.

Go to www.e46fanatics.com, and try and make all the redline oil users believe your approval lingo, and you'll get laughed at! Thats if you don't get mocked by the E46 M3 guys who are still waiting for BMW to own up in writing about its initial recommendation of the wrong oil (Viscosity). FYI, most of those guys run redline, redline, as in engine and trans oil. Again no issues there. Go figure.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Despite Turkey's misrepresentation, misunderstandings, confusion and misdeeds, any BMW approved LL-01 oil of the correct viscosity meets all BMW gas engine model warranty requirements for U.S. models and can be used in your vehicle.

Still touting that 2001 specification, in 2010? So what changed between 1998, and 2001, that BMW changed the spec to LL-01?

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Why? Because you said so?
The FACT is that using unapproved lubricants will cause you warranty issues if you have a related problem. Since there is no logical reason to not use approved lubricants, I really fail to understand the fanaticism about using redline, AMsoil or RP.

FACT: the approval is from the year 2001, before BMW made 8/10 cylinder, or turbo charged engines. Its old and needs serious updating. The logic behind switching from "approved" mobil 1 0W40, or castrol, to redline RP, Motul or Total, lies in the fact that all these companies definition of the simple term: "synthetic" is VASTLY different, right down to the base oil composition, which is 70% of the fluid.

Originally Posted by cb1111

At best, you won't see a difference (if the unapproved lubricant comes close to meeting the specs) and at worst you'll blow something up..

What has blown up is the E46 M3 engine on OEM BMW LL-01 approved, dealership issued 5W30

Originally Posted by cb1111

You should always use approved lubricants. Failure to do so may harm your wallet. Do what you like, but please don't try to convince people that it is OK to use unapproved lubricants.

KEYWORD: MAY. You have NO PROOF that 100% synthetic oils such as royal purple, and redline, costing more than double the approved rubbish, will damage these engines. You have to run tests, that show, this, and you and track rat, have NO EVIDENCE of this.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Why? Because you said so?

The FACT is that using unapproved lubricants will cause you warranty issues if you have a related problem. Since there is no logical reason to not use approved lubricants, I really fail to understand the fanaticism about using redline, AMsoil or RP.

At best, you won't see a difference (if the unapproved lubricant comes close to meeting the specs) and at worst you'll blow something up.

The bottom line is very simple.

You should always use approved lubricants. Failure to do so may harm your wallet.

Do what you like, but please don't try to convince people that it is OK to use unapproved lubricants.

Since you and Turkeybaster always have to have the last word, I'll get out of this thread and let you two try to discredit me with wild assertions. Good luck.

I'm not debating warranty, and this thread isn't about warranty.

The OP had an Indy shop drop AMS Euro 5w-40 in his out of warranty 330i. That oil will be fine for his car. Whether it voids a warranty is a seperate issue all together. The 5w-40 is a fine oil for his application because it has been used in other BMW's which also spec LL01 for over 10 years and there have been no reported problems from owners or shops. His engine will not explode.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by Socom

I'm not debating warranty, and this thread isn't about warranty. The OP had an Indy shop drop AMS Euro 5w-40 in his out of warranty 330i. That oil will be fine for his car. Whether it voids a warranty is a seperate issue all together. The 5w-40 is a fine oil for his application because it has been used in other BMW's which also spec LL01 for over 10 years and there have been no reported problems from owners or shops. His engine will not explode.

Again, why does warranty matter, when people out of warranty have no issues? BMW would have to prove that Royal purple or redline retailing above $11/quart is inferior to Mobil 1 0W 40 retailing well below $5:00 with numerous on-going store promotions. Neither amsoil, royal purple or redline, used in the E46 engines (also calling for LL01) have cause any issues to date.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Again, why does warranty matter, when people out of warranty have no issues? BMW would have to prove that Royal purple or redline retailing above $11/quart is inferior to Mobil 1 0W 40 retailing well below $5:00 with numerous on-going store promotions. Neither amsoil, royal purple or redline, used in the E46 engines (also calling for LL01) have cause any issues to date.

True, but that's after you've waited a year to get into court and your car is still not repaired.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Socom

True, but that's after you've waited a year to get into court and your car is still not repaired.

Actually, I will jump in here just to correct this misconception.

A manufacturer does not need to prove that the unapproved lubricant caused the failure - they merely need to show that an unapproved lubricant was used in order to prevail.

Since it is the owner's responsibility to assure that the car is maintained properly in order to keep the warranty intact, the burden of proof is on the owner to show that he used approved lubricants. He/she can do this by showing receipts for approved lubricants and filters and by providing a written affidavit asserting that they changed the oil/filter at the correct intervals using approved products.

Unfortunately, if a manufacturer strongly believes that the owner has used unapproved lubricants/parts/aftermarket chips/flashes/stuff then they will easily prevail - and - like you said - a year or two after the failure while your car sits and rots.

[742]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

So Turkey and Socom have gone from being wrong again and again and again and again to being even more wrong... SOS, DD. Instead of technically educating themselves and accepting reality, they want to change reality, which isn't going to happen.

As always, people are free to do whatever they desire regarding engine oil. Start by reading your Owners Manual and Warranty booklet. The warranty requirements are clear. MSDS sheets, Tea Leaves, Indy fanbois and baselsss opinion does not change the warranty requirements or the lubrication requirements of your BMW engine or any other engine.

I have to point out that the wording in the Owner's Manual and warranty booklet leave much to be desired, and in the case of earlier cars is flat out wrong.

This is one of the reasons these threads just go on and on. What we need is a sticky that shows the relevant information from the TIS.

[33finally]

here is some interesting reading about oil...good comparison test and will make you think twice about mobil 1

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

[jimk]

Very interesting "discussion". Here are some thoughts based on the conspiracy theory that BMW is in business to sell cars, either new or CPO.

What if BMW specifically designs it's engines to last 100K miles using the current maintenance schedule and "approved" oils? Warranty speaking, chances are that any motor would be fine during the warranty period even if used with inferior oils. BMW warranty payout risks are minimal and the future looks bright.

After 50K miles, BMW simply doesn't care. If you decide to keep your car, most will pay a $2500-$3500 warranty premium, either to BMW or to others as the risks for blowing turbos is a bit higher but still a very lucrative business to be in. Remember, the cars are designed to last 100K, including the turbos so the $2500-$3500 should be more profit than not for BMW and others.

Now you're approaching the 100K mark, your warranty (if you have any) is getting closer to expire and you start getting the chills thinking your car will have a major failure past the warranty period that could cost you thousands. You rather keep the car and enjoy the lack of payments but the fear kicks in and you decide to watch some TV to try not to think about it. As you flip through the channels you watch the commercial of your favorite car company and you start drooling over the thought of the new car smell. You reach over, pick up and start reading the the new BMW literature that the dealer has been sending you lately, and you just recalled that unexpected call from your BMW CA, Michael something. You wonder how could he remember your first name and your wife's name after all those years? You feel good about yourself. You also reminded yourself that BMWs are rock solid cause you made it through the warranty period without any major repairs. How could you, you only used BMW approved lubricants.

I hope you see my point folks. The system works and it's brilliant.

Most BMW cars will last more than 100K miles, using the factory recommended maintenance intervals with the approved stuff especially with naturally aspirated engines. But what if the cars have direct injection, have turbos that glow red from the heat and cook the BMW approved oils after 1000 miles? What if the diffs have no drain plugs? How can you keep that car for another 100K miles and at least not worry much about engine repairs?

Look, just like most said, you're free to use whatever oil makes you happy. You are also free to choose to believe things as they are presented to you or think outside the box a bit. I have made my choices. I simply don't believe that the same oil that is approved to be used on 2001 325i is capable of providing the same protection in much more oil punishing conditions found in the N54 engine and changed under similar intervals. To each their own.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

You just don't get it do you? Indy BMW represents a sample of what 50-100 cars per year?

Exactly what benefit do you perceive that you are getting from using a non-BMW approved oil and how are you scientifically and objectively confirming this benefit? How do these techs confirm they are getting a benefit from using a non-BMW approved oil? Are they conducting the BMW LL-01 oil sequence and durability testing that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for each oil type or are they providing their unscientific, baseless, subjective opinions, like you?

Your problem is you believe the ad hype.

All I said to the OP was that he was probably fine with the oil dropped into his car. If I was looking for a PAO or Ester base oil I'd probably look at Motul personally because they paid for the LL04 certification just for my own piece of mind. In addition I never said I was a fan of AMS so I take offsense to your assumption that I 'believe the hype'.

My somewhat positive opinion on these boutique oils is the lack of bad news about them. The BMW enthusiast has been using Redline and AMS for years and there has never been a peep about a failed engine due to the oil. Mike Miller (BMWCCA member and regular contributor to Roundal and BIMMER) has been a fan of Redline and that man has had more time under a BMW than anyone on this board. I also tried to find negative information on AMS and Redline to see if the lack of bad news was real. I just couldn't find anything negative about them.

My position has always been stick with manufacture spec while within warranty and use whatever you want out of warranty. Just remember to adjust your OCI based on the oil you're using. The OP could probably use 40w dino oil every 3k miles and he'd be fine as well.

End of rant.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

So Turkey and Socom have gone from being wrong again and again and again and again to being even more wrong... SOS, DD. Instead of technically educating themselves and accepting reality, they want to change reality, which isn't going to happen.

As always, people are free to do whatever they desire regarding engine oil. Start by reading your Owners Manual and Warranty booklet. The warranty requirements are clear. MSDS sheets, Tea Leaves, Indy fanbois and baselsss opinion does not change the warranty requirements or the lubrication requirements of your BMW engine or of any other engine. It is what it is.

$14/quart royal purple is vastly inferior to $3.99/quart Mobil 1 0W 40. Wow, I wonder whatelse people are overpaying for these days? 80,000 M5, when a Kia at 10K is vastly superior.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Unfortunately - The reason these threads go on and on is because some people refuse to accept reality.

Stickies are good if people read them and they can actually decipher fact from fiction. In addition the BMW official website has oil and warranty requirement information as do the BMW dealers and yes I am aware some BMW dealers are technically illiterate. Many forums also have oil/maintenance stickies too... But how could any person read this or a similar oil thread and really know what to believe if they don't have some technical training on the subject matter?

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx

Mr BMWUSA, did you ever stop to think that BMW LL approval has to be written on the label of the approved product, per law? So why do you only seem to recommend whats listed on that website, and ignore all the other fluids that have BMWLL written on them, like Total, and Motul? Also you keep dodging my question about what changed over at BMW from 1998, to 2001, to warrant going from LL98 to LL01.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by 33finally

here is some interesting reading about oil...good comparison test and will make you think twice about mobil 1

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

^^scary stuff right there, about CRAP 1 0W40

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by jimk

Very interesting "discussion". Here are some thoughts based on the conspiracy theory that BMW is in business to sell cars, either new or CPO.

What if BMW specifically designs it's engines to last 100K miles using the current maintenance schedule and "approved" oils? Warranty speaking, chances are that any motor would be fine during the warranty period even if used with inferior oils. BMW warranty payout risks are minimal and the future looks bright.

After 50K miles, BMW simply doesn't care. If you decide to keep your car, most will pay a $2500-$3500 warranty premium, either to BMW or to others as the risks for blowing turbos is a bit higher but still a very lucrative business to be in. Remember, the cars are designed to last 100K, including the turbos so the $2500-$3500 should be more profit than not for BMW and others.

Now you're approaching the 100K mark, your warranty (if you have any) is getting closer to expire and you start getting the chills thinking your car will have a major failure past the warranty period that could cost you thousands. You rather keep the car and enjoy the lack of payments but the fear kicks in and you decide to watch some TV to try not to think about it. As you flip through the channels you watch the commercial of your favorite car company and you start drooling over the thought of the new car smell. You reach over, pick up and start reading the the new BMW literature that the dealer has been sending you lately, and you just recalled that unexpected call from your BMW CA, Michael something. You wonder how could he remember your first name and your wife's name after all those years? You feel good about yourself. You also reminded yourself that BMWs are rock solid cause you made it through the warranty period without any major repairs. How could you, you only used BMW approved lubricants.

I hope you see my point folks. The system works and it's brilliant.

Most BMW cars will last more than 100K miles, using the factory recommended maintenance intervals with the approved stuff especially with naturally aspirated engines. But what if the cars have direct injection, have turbos that glow red from the heat and cook the BMW approved oils after 1000 miles? What if the diffs have no drain plugs? How can you keep that car for another 100K miles and at least not worry much about engine repairs?

Look, just like most said, you're free to use whatever oil makes you happy. You are also free to choose to believe things as they are presented to you or think outside the box a bit. I have made my choices. I simply don't believe that the same oil that is approved to be used on 2001 325i is capable of providing the same protection in much more oil punishing conditions found in the N54 engine and changed under similar intervals. To each their own.

^^ Common sense, which is not so common on these boards.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

...and that is why BMW actually tests the oils in YOUR engine to be certain what oil is required. They don't guess, they actually test the oils in all BMW engines. Ever see a 400 hour WOT dyno test of a turbo engine? It separates fact from friction, I mean fiction. Been there, done that, many times.

No they don't! No one tested anything. The test standard, which is what LL01 is, was set in 2001. Its nothing but a minimum viscosity index, and a given range for KV40, and KV100.

[ENINTY]

Jeezzzus, can't you all just get a divorce? You all are really OCD on engine oil. It's not that complicated. Just use BMW's oil. It's resonably priced and it works. Get on with life...