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Dinan Software Warning...bad tuners.
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01-14-2008, 03:36 AM | #45 |
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Hi Shiv,
I know Orb as a very competent and helpful contributor. He just speaks out very clearly what he has learned due to his profession and personality. What you can do ( beside proper testing ) is to provide for your customers 1) Very well designed and constructed hardware ( I doubt this for the PROcede harness ). 2) Give your customers the possibility to run a 350whp / 350wtq map with the PROcede V2 or greater on an otherwise stock car. This can be done with your user adjustable torque map or a dedicated map for owners who like such numbers and the appropriate quality. Not everybody likes to squeeze out the max. possible from the engine. Assuming this would be immature. A lot of your customers have excellent technical background and are as successful in their business as you are in yours. The world changes a lot for you with the BMW market segment. Most of the customers have the money to switch to a different product as soon they feel they should, honestly. It's your responsibility to serve them well or they will change, as Orb already did. Others may follow. BTW, the turbos in the 12h Bathurst race withstanded 11 psi, not 14-15 psi. Cheers Eugen |
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01-14-2008, 03:59 AM | #46 | |
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01-14-2008, 04:20 AM | #47 | |
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As for providing users with the ability to make as much or as little power as they want, I think we already provide that with the User Torque table. Are you saying that we don't? As for the Bathhurts cars, they ran 12psi. Under sustained race conditions, for 12 hours straight, during a hot summer. This is more stress than any of us will put on our turbos, at 15psi, during even the most aggressive street driving. Until one actually races a car and do a post race tear-down, one doesn't understand just how abusive it is. Things that simply never fail on the road, end up breaking, melting, cracking, smoking, etc,. after just a few hours of sustained racing. 12hrs is an order of magnitude more painful than that. To tell the truth, none of us were expecting the cars to finish the 12hr race. We were fully prepared for the transmission, turbos, engine, wheel bearings, differential, etc,. to fail before the end of the race. With no prior racing history, we had no optimistic expectation for the car. To see it last the entire race, and then some, made a point that was hard to ignore. By comparison, an Mitsu Evo that we ran with Car and Driver magazine a couple years ago at the 25hr of Thurnderhill Race went through 4 power steering pumps, 1 turbo (the wastegate actuator rod broke!), and a wheel bearing or two. In just 5hrs of racing in the middle of winter. To say that the 335i is a robust car is a understatement. Shiv |
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01-14-2008, 04:34 AM | #48 | |
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Is there any proof yet that remapping the water pump is helping anything? Until we see data to prove it is keeping the oil temps lower, then who is to say how efficient it is. |
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01-14-2008, 04:36 AM | #49 |
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It sounds to me like Orb needed to vent.... nothing more.
He talks about dinans probabilities and then he asks for supporting facts from Vishnu.. He then calls Vishnu a "Small Vendor" (joke)... Im willing to bet (and i dont gamble) Vishnu's 335i has gone through more hard testing than all Dinan reflashes combined... GL
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01-14-2008, 05:36 AM | #50 | |
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Shiv, c'mon You havn't taken the engine out of the car and even dynoed it at the crank or even isolated the engine from the car and developed your tune using all the mechanics available. (IE control the the ECU.) You don't have a working relation with BMW and in fact many of your cutomers hide your software from BMW. I highly respect your ability to tune a car... but 90% of your customers are leasing their cars and don't car about residual dmg done using your tune... because it's not their problem. We are all aware of your testing and what you've done to insure the upmost in safety... but there is only so much a piggyback can do. You do not benchtest your engine nore run 24 hour stress tests, acquiring real time data. You simply do not have the resources nor the funds for such a complete analysis of what your tune does to the engine. Please don't suggest that your "on par" with DINAN when it comes to R&D. It's laughable! -Garrett Last edited by Garrett; 01-14-2008 at 05:54 AM.. |
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01-14-2008, 06:20 AM | #51 |
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01-14-2008, 06:56 AM | #52 |
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for me I don't care who did more r&d.. The point here is that dinan offers warranty and the fact they are well known for bmws.. Even if the flash is pricey.. Like Many said its because of the warranty.. I'm sure for v2 if u increase the price 400-600 bucks and offer warranty for ur product most buyers will fork up the extra money... Shiv if u strongly believe ur product is reliable ... Y not offer the warranty for ur product? I mean if u made me pay 2000 for v2 with warranty or 2000 for dinan I would probably would have got v2 ... But since u are new to many in bmw terms and no warrranty package with ur product that is y I went with dinan.
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01-14-2008, 07:24 AM | #53 | |
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01-14-2008, 07:37 AM | #54 |
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he should offer warranty as a option to those who want to fork over extra money to have a peace of mind... I mean this whole debate is that his product v2 is very reliable and by offering warranty as a option will prove the r&d shiv done was a good job.. If not people who buy warranty will be covered under shiv's misstake
Orb is right that people tend to lean to v2 with a lease .. People who actually buys the car aim for dinan.. It comes down to the life span of the car |
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01-14-2008, 07:46 AM | #55 | |
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01-14-2008, 08:52 AM | #56 |
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From a mechanical standpoint, at 14psi+ (even with these little turbos) on the a stock 335i, I would worry about the long term effects of the torque on the engine block and the drivetrain before I worry about possible Turbo failures.
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01-14-2008, 10:24 AM | #57 | |
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But, throw it on a computer controlled engine with a piggy back doing lord knows what to the signal and you have created thermal, pressure, and stress loads that are very complex!! |
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01-14-2008, 10:29 AM | #58 | |
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My best friend is an engineer, and I discussed this with him just a few minutes ago. He is a 350z owner and could care else about our stupid tuner war or arguments, and he pretty much repeated everything Orb said
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01-14-2008, 10:33 AM | #59 | |
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01-14-2008, 10:39 AM | #60 | |
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I mean come on guys, if you want to argue a point you need facts. This "my friend says" does nothing to forward the argument or the understanding of the N54. |
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01-14-2008, 10:55 AM | #61 | |
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Did Dinan actually go through benching the head to test for VE and comparing it against the relative compressor maps of the turbo to make claims that 13.5 psi is the operational limit of the turbo and whether its beyond the efficiency island and approaching the choke line? I am assuming this N54 motor has VE in the range of at least 98%+ due to the fact that BMW knows how to design a decent head. So if Dinan did indeed take into consideration all of the factors from brake specific fuel consumption, VE, ambient air temp, displacement and HP target, whats the verdict? Where is Dinan's tune based on the compressor map? This is a DEFINITE way to determine if the turbo "will fail". Are you an ME yourself?
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01-14-2008, 11:08 AM | #62 | |
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01-14-2008, 11:09 AM | #63 |
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^ would they have to?
They have a working relationship with BMW. They could have gotten all that info from BMW directly without having to do all testing themselves.
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01-14-2008, 11:11 AM | #64 | |
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Sure, it is fun to raise the boost. Fun to raise the fueling. But at what cost? Nothing worse than an injector failing and having a cylinder run lean.
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01-14-2008, 11:21 AM | #65 | |
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Orb simply asked for some sort of scientific study when making all of this power. In truth, both Orb and Shiv have points in their discussion. For a true study one would perform Orb’s modeling and stress calculations. Then, back your study up with real life working examples, which is where Shiv’s data resides. You really need both of these to be complete. Usually, one is ignored due to time constraints (Shiv’s) or resources limits (Orb’s). |
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01-14-2008, 11:27 AM | #66 |
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often times, its the real life data that is more important. I cant explain how many times well thought out idea's and engineered goals have failed in real time.
Yes its good to be thorough on both ends (R&D and real time testing) but its the real time information that will yield the results and information we are truly looking for and will allow us to move forward.
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