[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Firstly, I'm disappointed this kind of ignorance is coming out of the SF Bay Area. I thought there was a high concentration of talented engineers there. 1/4 mile time - keep it. Braking I'll debate you on.

3 feet is within the margin of error. Those tests were conducted on two surfaces with a different coefficient of friction. Humidity, temperature, tire wear, tire pressure, and even the condition of the brake pads and the consistency of pad transfer to the rotor all matter.

Take one 335i and one 325i on a road course. Swap the wheels from one car onto the other for each test to take out a non-brake variable. The 325i will stop quicker every time until its brakes literally fail from overheating. 3277 pound vehicles stop more quickly than 3577 pound vehicles every time. Caveat: after perhaps 100 stops in rapid succession the fluid will boil, and the lines will fill with air. The 335i's 350mm discs might bleed the heat off slightly longer than the 300mm discs, or they might have already overheated from converting that much extra kinetic energy into heat energy (stopping).

80 mph = 35.7632 meters / second
3577 pounds = 1622 kg
3277 pounds = 1486 kg
kinetic energy = (0.5) * m * v^2

K335i = (0.5) * 1622 * 35^2
K335i = 993,475 joules
K325i = 910,175 joules

This calculation is rather generous, because the 335i according to everyone on this board is moving A LOT FASTER. Because velocity is squared, a marginal increase in speed like 8 mph makes it MUCH HARDER to stop the vehicle and will overheat your brakes MUCH SOONER:

88 mph = 39.33952 meters / second
K335i@88mph = 1,255,101 joules

The speed increased 10% but the energy you're carrying went up 26%. By some measure, that's your danger coefficient.

With race pads on my stock rotors, I can pulse the ABS at any speed and at any time on the track. Even on stock pads, you can engage ABS for many, many stops in a row until your brakes fade. You can make some BMW-marketing-inspired claim that the 335i's larger calipers have more clamping power, but you NEVER want to lock a wheel on the track or on the street. Both cars in stock variety can clamp until the wheel locks. You want to apply pedal pressure just shy of the point where ABS sends you one pulse, letting you know you screwed up.

Anyone else want to copy and paste marketing jargon into the thread, and declare applied physics null and void with respect to driving?

Not sure where to start? So by your rationale, your 3277lb BMW 325i should stop faster than a 3572lb Porsche Twin Turbo Tiptronic?

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Firstly, I'm disappointed this kind of ignorance is coming out of the SF Bay Area. I thought there was a high concentration of talented engineers there. 1/4 mile time - keep it. Braking I'll debate you on.

3 feet is within the margin of error. Those tests were conducted on two surfaces with a different coefficient of friction. Humidity, temperature, tire wear, tire pressure, and even the condition of the brake pads and the consistency of pad transfer to the rotor all matter.

Take one 335i and one 325i on a road course. Swap the wheels from one car onto the other for each test to take out a non-brake variable. The 325i will stop quicker every time until its brakes literally fail from overheating. 3277 pound vehicles stop more quickly than 3577 pound vehicles every time. Caveat: after perhaps 100 stops in rapid succession the fluid will boil, and the lines will fill with air. The 335i's 350mm discs might bleed the heat off slightly longer than the 300mm discs, or they might have already overheated from converting that much extra kinetic energy into heat energy (stopping).

80 mph = 35.7632 meters / second
3577 pounds = 1622 kg
3277 pounds = 1486 kg
kinetic energy = (0.5) * m * v^2

K335i = (0.5) * 1622 * 35^2
K335i = 993,475 joules
K325i = 910,175 joules

This calculation is rather generous, because the 335i according to everyone on this board is moving A LOT FASTER. Because velocity is squared, a marginal increase in speed like 8 mph makes it MUCH HARDER to stop the vehicle and will overheat your brakes MUCH SOONER:

88 mph = 39.33952 meters / second
K335i@88mph = 1,255,101 joules

The speed increased 10% but the energy you're carrying went up 26%. By some measure, that's your danger coefficient.

With race pads on my stock rotors, I can pulse the ABS at any speed and at any time on the track. Even on stock pads, you can engage ABS for many, many stops in a row until your brakes fade. You can make some BMW-marketing-inspired claim that the 335i's larger calipers have more clamping power, but you NEVER want to lock a wheel on the track or on the street. Both cars in stock variety can clamp until the wheel locks. You want to apply pedal pressure just shy of the point where ABS sends you one pulse, letting you know you screwed up.

Anyone else want to copy and paste marketing jargon into the thread, and declare applied physics null and void with respect to driving?

Dude, I got a D+ in college in Physics...please stop mentioning joules...its gonna bring back the nightmares...Argh.

[leftcoastman]

West - I guess you like getting beat up, because you are continuing your argument despite saying you wouldn't.

Well here it goes again.

DrDomer's point is that you are merely focusing on weight and speed. Your argument seems to imply that lower weight and less speed equals better braking. Taken to the logical extreme, why don't we all track Toyota Yaris's? Light as hell, so less joules to dissipate, slow as hell to boot! That means it stop on a dime!

You are ignoring two things:

1) The brakes on a 335 / 997TT are different than a 325. Much larger. Are you making the physics-defying argument that larger effective rotor does not result in increased braking torque?

2) Take a look at your local track map. Color the acceleration zones (near apex for most turns and all straights) with Green. Color the braking zones with Red. Compare the ratio of green to red. Even if your physics-defying argument is true (which it's not, as you concede the braking distances are so close they are within margin of error), you win on a minority of the track surface.

Think of all that "Green" where the 335i runs laps around you.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Both cars have so much brake torque in reserve it goes unused. The point where you lock your wheels (and the ABS lights up) might be force F. The point of maximum caliper torque might be 2*F. Put down 2*F and you're going to ABS your lap time to crap. It's not relevant. Large brakes are like a giant advertisement that the car is heavy. The 335i has big brakes because it is heavy. It would be retarded for a 3740 pound 335xi sedan to have the same brakes as me (source: longodj post about weight and alignment spec sheets from corner balancing).

In the logical middle, with a 335i you achieve a higher peak speed and lengthen your braking zone to an exponential distance (literally squared relative to that speed). Your red zones are now huge. And your brakes overheat. You cast aside physics because you think BMW casted an magic invincible rotor and caliper that probably cost an extra $9 to manufacture.

I've passed 335i and been passed by them. Nothing remarkable. It came down to better driving, the cars were both capable.

You constantly rely on better driving to prove that your car is as capable. You are unable to accept that certain cars are faster than your own. That, as stated above, is a recipe for disaster. I once pulled a student off-track because his assessment of his car and abilities was not in sync with reality.

Nobody disputes that a better driver could outlap a poor driver. Hell, I once had a student in an E30 318i that got the point by from a C6 Z06. The Corvette guy parked it in the corners.

That is not the discussion here. Equal drivers, the 325i has no chance against the 335i.

Ceteris Paribus.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Yes, absolutely. If they are running the same tires and achieve the same coefficient of friction, the lighter car stops first.

Just as a ton of bricks falls off a building at the same rate as a ton of feathers, a ton of Porsche doesn't stop faster than a ton of BMW. You specify twin turbo porsche. How exactly does the motor relate to a braking exercise????

I'm floored and astounded that branding is so powerful. Reprogram yourself. Think.

I just mentioned it was a Twin Turbo so you wouldn't question the weight. I know it has nothing to do with stopping the car. A regular 911 weighs only 3000lbs.

So if I take the calipers off my ten speed bike and put them on your BMW instead of it's current brakes, will it stop just as fast? Implying that brakes have no importance in braking, and that only the weight and tires are important is making my head spin. In the same thinking, wouldn't massive brakes with improved electronics be able to stop more weight more quickly than inferior brakes with no electronics?

I'm so confused...

Also... it's not the maximum force a brake can exert that determines how well a car can stop. Obviously just clamping a vice on your rotor is not going to help you go around a corner AND stop quickly.) It is how quickly it can slow a rotating mass WITHOUT locking it up that dictates useful stopping distance, especially in the context of racing. Since large brakes with fancy electronic gizmos can put more force on the rotor without locking it up, they can bring the tires to the limit of their coefficient of friction without the car losing control and stop it more quickly. Unbelievably, suspension is important in this also. Otherwise, all cars with the same weight and tires would also have the same braking distances. They do not.

Still very confused though...

[nicknaz]

West, don't stuff your car trying to hang with someone at a DE...

[longodj]

Originally Posted by westwest888

So to summarize the main take-aways for 325/328/330/e46/e36/e30/otherBadge owners reading this thread:

1. Don't try passing a turbo.
2. If you have to do it over, don't buy your car again.
3. A particular combination of badging and branding allows certain cars to cheat Newton's laws. Mass and velocity take second fiddle to the marketing that went into an upmarket 3 series, and certain flagship Porsches.

No...the take-away to this thread should be

1) Every 3 series has its merits
2) Certeris Paribus a STOCK 335i will be faster around the same course with the same driver as a STOCK 325i
3) 325/328/330/e46/e36/e30/otherBadge drivers when trying to prove their worth forget about key point to physics such as heat dissipation and capacity of rotors....???
4) 335 drivers are being completely respectful and trying to say that both have their merits and are great cars except purely for times around a track
5) Certain 325/328/330/e46/e36/e30/otherBadge are misinterpreting that as a personal attack and continuing a useless argument for no reason.

[leftcoastman]

I want last word!

Me!
Me!
Me!

[satakal]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

I want last word!

Me!
Me!
Me!

no!

me
________
DA BUDDAH VAPORIZERS

[deve]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Firstly, I'm disappointed this kind of ignorance is coming out of the SF Bay Area. I thought there was a high concentration of talented engineers there. 1/4 mile time - keep it. Braking I'll debate you on.

3 feet is within the margin of error. Those tests were conducted on two surfaces with a different coefficient of friction. Humidity, temperature, tire wear, tire pressure, and even the condition of the brake pads and the consistency of pad transfer to the rotor all matter.

Take one 335i and one 325i on a road course. Swap the wheels from one car onto the other for each test to take out a non-brake variable. The 325i will stop quicker every time until its brakes literally fail from overheating. 3277 pound vehicles stop more quickly than 3577 pound vehicles every time. Caveat: after perhaps 100 stops in rapid succession the fluid will boil, and the lines will fill with air. The 335i's 350mm discs might bleed the heat off slightly longer than the 300mm discs, or they might have already overheated from converting that much extra kinetic energy into heat energy (stopping).

80 mph = 35.7632 meters / second
3577 pounds = 1622 kg
3277 pounds = 1486 kg
kinetic energy = (0.5) * m * v^2

K335i = (0.5) * 1622 * 35^2
K335i = 993,475 joules
K325i = 910,175 joules

This calculation is rather generous, because the 335i according to everyone on this board is moving A LOT FASTER. Because velocity is squared, a marginal increase in speed like 8 mph makes it MUCH HARDER to stop the vehicle and will overheat your brakes MUCH SOONER:

88 mph = 39.33952 meters / second
K335i@88mph = 1,255,101 joules

The speed increased 10% but the energy you're carrying went up 26%. By some measure, that's your danger coefficient.

With race pads on my stock rotors, I can pulse the ABS at any speed and at any time on the track. Even on stock pads, you can engage ABS for many, many stops in a row until your brakes fade. You can make some BMW-marketing-inspired claim that the 335i's larger calipers have more clamping power, but you NEVER want to lock a wheel on the track or on the street. Both cars in stock variety can clamp until the wheel locks. You want to apply pedal pressure just shy of the point where ABS sends you one pulse, letting you know you screwed up.

Anyone else want to copy and paste marketing jargon into the thread, and declare applied physics null and void with respect to driving?

1) I do not understand why you made offense towards "talented engineers from SFBA" and how it helps you
2) So you agree that 335 wins 1/4 mile test. Nice
3) What about slalom ? agree or not ? If not then try to find test result (done by respectful magazine) that proves your point of view.
4) As to braking: you keep denying that bigger brakes and bigger tires make up for 335's weight even though I showed you numbers and those numbers showing that 335 brakes a bit better than 330/325. Your argument about surface and conditions are not valid since Edmunds conduct their tests on the same track.
and again if you still disagree: try to find test result (done by respectful magazine) that proves your point of view.


PS: According to you HPs, brakes, suspension and tires do not make as much difference as weight. Then why you race BMW rather than Honda civic or Toyota yaris ?

[jahwerx]

Ok, enough about all this brake BS - I'm sorry I just can't let this go. Any modern OEM brake (even with stock pads) is capable of stopping the car WELL BEYOND THE LIMITS of the tires, at any speed the car is capable of doing ...

The first time.

The second time.

The third time.

The fourth and fifth time - right in a row??? <= perhaps not

Bigger brakes are all about sustained stopping AGAIN AND AGAIN, reliably at the limit. Its already been mentioned (heat dissipation with larger, better-designed rotors. Better brake fluid which when heated doesn't boil, better modulation and consistency of pedal feel at hot temps - that why there are so many varieties of pad compounds out there, etc..)

Anyone who buys a BBK for the street is seriously PISSING $$$ away. And anecdotally, I've heard folks that are running the 335 OEM brakes on the track are not happy with them after a few laps.

I'm relatively new to road tracking, but every instructor I've had asks me:
1) about my brakes
2) about my tires
3) they could give a sh*t about how much power the car has or if its w/in 200 lbs of another car out there . . . you all realize this of course: all theis bickering is about a couple hundred lousy pounds at cars that all weight OVER 3000 effing pounds.

Rule of thumb - lose 100 LBS, gain a 10HP equivalent. I felt like I picked up 1HP last time I went to the rest room between runs.

That said, no way will a comparably equipped 325 have a chance in hell against a 335 on a road track with drivers that know what they are doing.

By the way, I'm enjoyng this thread

[longodj]

Originally Posted by jahwerx

Ok, enough about all this brake BS - I'm sorry I just can't let this go. Any modern OEM brake (even with stock pads) is capable of stopping the car WELL BEYOND THE LIMITS of the tires, at any speed the car is capable of doing ...

The first time.

The second time.

The third time.

The fourth and fifth time - right in a row??? <= perhaps not

Bigger brakes are all about sustained stopping AGAIN AND AGAIN, reliably at the limit. Its already been mentioned (heat dissipation with larger, better-designed rotors. Better brake fluid which when heated doesn't boil, better modulation and consistency of pedal feel at hot temps - that why there are so many varieties of pad compounds out there, etc..)

Anyone who buys a BBK for the street is seriously PISSING $$$ away. And anecdotally, I've heard folks that are running the 335 OEM brakes on the track are not happy with them after a few laps.

I'm relatively new to road tracking, but every instructor I've had asks me:
1) about my brakes
2) about my tires
3) they could give a sh*t about how much power the car has or if its w/in 200 lbs of another car out there . . . you all realize this of course: all theis bickering is about a couple hundred lousy pounds at cars that all weight OVER 3000 effing pounds.

Rule of thumb - lose 100 LBS, gain a 10HP equivalent. I felt like I picked up 1HP last time I went to the rest room between runs.

That said, no way will a comparably equipped 325 have a chance in hell against a 335 on a road track with drivers that know what they are doing.

By the way, I'm enjoyng this thread

well said sir

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by westwest888

In hindsight, what I meant was that MY 325i could hang with a stock 335i, as in I'm not going to get embarrassingly destroyed like when a 7.0L corvette blows your doors off and you're like "wth happened". My car is marginally lightened, corner balanced, aligned for track duty with camber plates, thick swaybars, no 2nd cats, rides about 3" off of the ground, same width tires front and rear, and has race pads and cryogenic rotors. I'll concede that stock vs. stock probably not too much of a chance. If you approach the problem from a Grassroots Motorsports magazine angle, where you have a budget of $40,000 to get a car on the track this logic makes sense. You can pick up a 2006 325i e90 for $23,000, sink about $5 grand into it and have a damn good track car.

The 335i brakes could have an edge on pad surface area (anyone have pics of the fronts to compare?) Interestingly, if you switch from a stock pad to a race pad the pad has that same shape but more surface area. I noticed a stock pad will have two pads on the assembly with a gap between them, whereas the race pad will be one large spounge shaped pad.

In closing, when was the last time any of you rolled onto the paddock off of a hot track and said to yourself, "Damn, that session would have gone A LOT BETTER if I had another 200 hp." Personally, I'm just happy I made it back onto the paddock without incident. Then I lament about having gone too fast into a particular turn, or having braked too late, or something else where too much speed was what hurt my lap time. That might not make sense to everyone, but it should make a lot of sense if you've been out there.

I agree. I've never been upset my car is underpowered. I'm finally getting to the point that I wish my TAG Kart had more low end grunt (Rotax engine likes high RPMs), but usually I'm still mad I turned into my "toilet bowl" area to late, have to overbrake, correct, and exit the corner slower than I should. The same should be said for my car. I think MOST people getting started in this should get a Miata for track days. $5000 for a competent little car with plenty of room in the budget for repairs and upgrades. Although it has little power compared to our cars, it will help you learn to drive on a track. If you're like me and only get on the track with your own car a couple times a year, then get the 335i and enjoy the comfort day to day.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by westwest888

In closing, when was the last time any of you rolled onto the paddock off of a hot track and said to yourself, "Damn, that session would have gone A LOT BETTER if I had another 200 hp." Personally, I'm just happy I made it back onto the paddock without incident. Then I lament about having gone too fast into a particular turn, or having braked too late, or something else where too much speed was what hurt my lap time. That might not make sense to everyone, but it should make a lot of sense if you've been out there.

I usually say, god I can't wait till I get those damn coilovers and hell, it'd be real nice to have a tune so I could shut those cocky Corvette sh!ts up! It's really annoying when Corvettes and Vipers stop paying attention to no passing rules There really is no reason for more hp (than what the 335 has...) except for on straights....but you don't go to HPDEs for the straights

EDIT: oh and the other thing I say at HPDEs "PLEASE DON'T OVERHEAT, PLEASE DON'T OVERHEAT, C'MON IT'S ONLY THE THIRD LAP!!! YOU PILE OF CRAP DON'T OVERHEAT!!!!"

[S4to335]

Like I said..get a used decent spec miata for $9K and call it a day.

[satakal]

Originally Posted by S4to335

Like I said..get a used decent spec miata for $9K and call it a day.

A few weekends ago, I went for an instructor ride along with Margret (?) in a yellow spec miata. She was talking really soft while driving super fast around buttonwillow. I couldn't hear too well, but she said something about the car's tendency to roll over and some groups not wanting the risk of having a spec type miata on track. Does this sound like anything real, or was I so scared to death I'm making things up. I would hate it if I weren't able to register for a bmwcca HPDE and autox events with the miata if I choose to go that route.

Edit: All you smart guys.... Thanks so much for answering all the rookie questions. I know I am very greatful. Despite a detour, this is an awesome thread.
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by westwest888

too much speed was what hurt my lap time.

Seriously? The car is so super fast it hurt your lap time : That's great, thanks for the morning laugh!

don't BS around it: it is not "too much speed" that hurt the lap, it is "too little skill"

Seriously, if I pooch something on the track it is MY FAULT. NA E90 is so far down the ladder in absolute capability there is no way there is "too much speed" is an issue.

Ask for a ride in a truly capable machine driven by someone with a lot of seat time, such as a 200+hp caterham or a C6 Z06... or ride a sport motorcycle.. to get some perspective machine capability

EDIT: a spec miata with a quality roll cage, hardtop, seats/harness/arm restraints is a safe vehicle. On the other hand, I would not get into an unmodified street miata (or any other convertible) about to be driven at speed around a track

[jahwerx]

Originally Posted by westwest888

In closing, when was the last time any of you rolled onto the paddock off of a hot track and said to yourself, "Damn, that session would have gone A LOT BETTER if I had another 200 hp."

when you ... "get embarrassingly destroyed like when a 7.0L corvette blows your doors off and you're like "wth happened"."

LOL - I couldn't help it. be safe out there!!

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by satakal

A few weekends ago, I went for an instructor ride along with Margret (?) in a yellow spec miata. She was talking really soft while driving super fast around buttonwillow. I couldn't hear too well, but she said something about the car's tendency to roll over and some groups not wanting the risk of having a spec type miata on track. Does this sound like anything real, or was I so scared to death I'm making things up. I would hate it if I weren't able to register for a bmwcca HPDE and autox events with the miata if I choose to go that route.

Edit: All you smart guys.... Thanks so much for answering all the rookie questions. I know I am very greatful. Despite a detour, this is an awesome thread.

Margaret Cheng is a friend of mine..been on track with her tons of times. Miatas dont have a tendency to roll over at all. I have actually seen a few wrecks in Spec Miata racing...but never a roll over.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by westwest888

you've overcooked it.

Right, "you've" overcooked it. It is the user's fault for not slowing to the appropriate entry speed, not the machine's "fault" for having a huge power to weight ratio.

I'm not going to get sucked into an e-argument with you. If you've driven a technical course like Sears Point and decided that a 215hp E90 is already the fastest way around the track, then great. You're entitled to your own opinion.

EDIT: without meaning any offense, have you used or ridden in anything faster than your current E90 325 on a road course?

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by westwest888

You might think it's a joke, but this all comes back to physics. The better tracks (like Watkins Glen) have maps with the radius of every turn measured in feet or meters. For a given coefficient of friction and centripetal force, you can calculate the maximum speed through that turn. Try to do a 58 mph turn at 62 mph and you've overcooked it. You could have 1000hp Bugati Veryon and still only be able to complete that turn at 58 mph +-1mph. The 325i and the 335i alike are not capable of staying on line while doing a 58mph turn at 62mph.

In the overcook situation you lose your line, miss the apex by a few feet, and someone in an e30 aided only by MOMENTUM and 140hp passes you. Your options for recovery are to cheat the corner by scrubbing a considerable amount of speed with your tires, or take the new line. The problem is your new line is a poor setup for next one, two or three turns, which you'll need to take ever so slightly slower -- NO MATTER YOUR HORSEPOWER. Horsepower has never in the history of racing been a substitute for TRACTION. A tire can only do a finite amount of acceleration/deceleration and turning at any given time. Exceed it and your car will push, as in push you off line.

Some people on this thread must think we're talking about Bonneville Salt Flats racing - 5 miles in a straight line of desert. On technical tracks you can spend more time with the wheel turned than straight. As soon as your steering wheel comes off center, horsepower takes a back seat to traction.

Yes, but the car didn't "MAKE" you go too fast, you just didn't brake correctly. The 335i will still be faster, even on a technical track. Not every car can take a given corner at the same speed. The Bugatti analogy is inaccurate. Again, IF you have the skills, a higher HP car with similar handling characteristics will NOT be slower just because it's more powerful. You just have to have the skills to drive it correctly.

What you are describing is a scenario where you have inexperienced drivers overdriving their high HP cars into corners. They think "man I'm driving hard", going into each corner just barely hanging on with tires screeching away... meanwhile being passed by a guy in a low HP car looking like he's out for a Sunday drive hardly using any effort. The former hasn't developed the skills to drive the first car, it's not that the second car is faster.. his driver is.

I still believe (don't have immediate facts to put it on paper here) that the new e90's with sports suspension will corner better than previous non-M 3-series cars with factory suspension (even with the weight difference). The experience of others on here seems to support this.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Yes, but the car didn't "MAKE" you go too fast, you just didn't brake correctly. The 335i will still be faster, even on a technical track. Not every car can take a given corner at the same speed. The Bugatti analogy is inaccurate. Again, IF you have the skills, a higher HP car with similar handling characteristics will NOT be slower just because it's more powerful. You just have to have the skills to drive it correctly.

What you are describing is a scenario where you have inexperienced drivers overdriving their high HP cars into corners. They think "man I'm driving hard", going into each corner just barely hanging on with tires screeching away... meanwhile being passed by a guy in a low HP car looking like he's out for a Sunday drive hardly using any effort. The former hasn't developed the skills to drive the first car, it's not that the second car is faster.. his driver is.

I still believe (don't have immediate facts to put it on paper here) that the new e90's with sports suspension will corner better than previous non-M 3-series cars with factory suspension (even with the weight difference). The experience of others on here seems to support this.

+1

The hp doesn't make it harder to turn. Your inability to control the brakes does that. Let's say that a 335 and a 325 take a turn (I've been to Watkins Glen and the Pocono infields, don't go to the Salt Flats argument ) at the same speed, the 335 will accelerate quicker AFTER the turn and get up to speed faster. Now, with a good driver, they'll also STOP EARLIER to take into consideration their faster speed and take the next turn at exactly the same speed as that 325, but the 325 will be slightly further back as it did not get up to the faster speed without the additional hp. Why is that hard to understand? You can quote fancy physics words all day long but the fact is there is a limit to how fast a car takes a turn, but it's what happens in between the turns that is the difference between the 325 and 335.