[sg335]

Sorry, just looked at the pictures again. Number 48 looks consistant with many modified suspension cars. I don't think this is a lot of body lean in this particular corner at the speeds you were traveling. I have seen a lot worse in the recent posts for this event.

[2e9x's]

Harold,

I can tell you that your car did not appear to roll at all! For those corners that I was behind you I actually made a mental note of how flat your car was staying. To me it appeared that your car was very stable and balanced. If you have a tolerable street ride quality I wouldn't touch a thing.

While a sway bar might reduce body lean and camber change, it will also make your car less forgiving. Look, for example, at how quickly my stock car was getting around that track. The only place on that track that I wanted more suspension was coming out of the NASCAR Oval. The car got a touch light on those (rare) occasions when I had nobody in front of me on the oval and could go as fast as I wanted. Other than that the stock suspension and RFT combo felt great to me.

Based on my one experience with this car on the track, the only three things I would feel inclined to change right now are: 1.) Put track tires on lighter wheels, 2.) Get some negative camber in front, and 3.) change oils to something that might help keep temperatures down.

Obviously if I was building a dedicated track car all bets would be off. But for a nice street/track combo, this car is hard to beat.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by White05X3

Harold,

I can tell you that your car did not appear to roll at all! For those corners that I was behind you I actually made a mental note of how flat your car was staying. To me it appeared that your car was very stable and balanced. If you have a tolerable street ride quality I wouldn't touch a thing.

While a sway bar might reduce body lean and camber change, it will also make your car less forgiving. Look, for example, at how quickly my stock car was getting around that track. The only place on that track that I wanted more suspension was coming out of the NASCAR Oval. The car got a touch light on those (rare) occasions when I had nobody in front of me on the oval and could go as fast as I wanted. Other than that the stock suspension and RFT combo felt great to me.

Based on my one experience with this car on the track, the only three things I would feel inclined to change right now are: 1.) Put track tires on lighter wheels, 2.) Get some negative camber in front, and 3.) change oils to something that might help keep temperatures down.

Obviously if I was building a dedicated track car all bets would be off. But for a nice street/track combo, this car is hard to beat.

I agree with you, changing spring, shock, sway-bars, and alignment setting can really throw the balance of the car off. And that is exactly what we are still trying to sort out after so many changes. Installing the Quaife did some of that as well, but now the vehicle can be throttle steer around a corner.

Let me know if you need a set of camber plates. We can also offer you great deals on Redline oil by the case as well.

We saw a slight drop in oil temp by switching from the Redline 5w40 to the 5w30.

Harold

[sg335]

Herold, weren't you running RedLine 10w40? And 5w30 saw lower temps. Hum, now the decision is more difficult as to what to buy! What is the price per bottle/case on the Redline?

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by sg335

Herold, weren't you running RedLine 10w40? And 5w30 saw lower temps. Hum, now the decision is more difficult as to what to buy! What is the price per bottle/case on the Redline?

BMA Parts in Glendale sells them for $10-$11 a quart for the Redline 10w-40. Could be the same with their other weight oils.

[S4to335]

I got the Castrol TWS 10w60 weight stuff for $11/bottle..but that was a one off dealie.

[FourPtDrift]

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

I agree with you, changing spring, shock, sway-bars, and alignment setting can really throw the balance of the car off..

Yes, it "can," but it does NEED to. And I can assuredly say (and prove) that my setup will produce a considerably better solution. Ok. Yes, its not as tolerant... its response, good and bad, is MUCH faster... but it is still VERY neutral (as was agreed by the four different instructors who both rode and drove the car) and VERY manageable. Three elements, tires, springs (coilovers) and sway bars can deal with load and stress bearing matters... but its always best to divvy up the responsibilities. Its more complicated to set up... but it produces much greater rewards.

And that is exactly what we are still trying to sort out after so many changes. Installing the Quaife did some of that as well, but now the vehicle can be throttle steer around a corner.

So. You have the Quaife? Can you provide me with a PM on pricing and availability? Its something I feel is missing from my car. All that power and no ability to manage it properly is very.... upsetting.

-Daniel

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by sg335

Herold, weren't you running RedLine 10w40? And 5w30 saw lower temps. Hum, now the decision is more difficult as to what to buy! What is the price per bottle/case on the Redline?

I was running Redline 5W40 before.

Redline synthetic motor oil retails at $8.95 per quart. A case of 12 with case discount would run you $96+ CA sales tax. If you are in LA, I can deliver them on weekends to save you shipping fees.


Harold

[sg335]

I'll call you next week. I think I may need two cases. One for each car. Thanks.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

Yeah. I am going to go to Willow Springs in spring, april or may right? First I have to get an oil cooler. I'm jan/07 production. Then I may or may not have a friend of mines fabricator fabricate me a bigger more beefy oil cooler. Because oil temps were really bad when I was at the track 299 at one point.

How could you tell it was 299? Just a smidge back from the line at 300? That is high. the highest I ever saw was 280.

[sg335]

Originally Posted by FourPtDrift

Yes, it "can," but it does NEED to. And I can assuredly say (and prove) that my setup will produce a considerably better solution. Ok. Yes, its not as tolerant... its response, good and bad, is MUCH faster... but it is still VERY neutral (as was agreed by the four different instructors who both rode and drove the car) and VERY manageable. Three elements, tires, springs (coilovers) and sway bars can deal with load and stress bearing matters... but its always best to divvy up the responsibilities. Its more complicated to set up... but it produces much greater rewards.

-Daniel

No offense, but I am confused by your post. I can't remember your mods and they are not listen within this thread. I did a quick search but only came up with your sway bar installation problem and thoughts about selecting the KW V2 or V3. I think you may also have the Vishnu chip. What exactly are your mods and could you please post them here?

You say that your "solution" is considerably better. As compared to what? The factory set up or other coilover systems? What are you capable of proving? What are you actually comparing your current set up to? What are you baseline numbers to start with? Could you elaborate on tolerant and response? Much faster, because of the suspension mods or the chip? Neutral, I would agree but how does this compare to your other track day experience with the stock suspension in terms of under/oversteer and under what track specific conditions? I think my car is very neutral and don't have sways installed. What exactly is more complicated to set up. Adjusting rebound and compression can be done by feel alone and KW provides an initial suggested setting.

If you have the KW's, I am interested in knowing why they are not as tolerant since most say they are more comfortable than stock. Don't know what aspect of tolerance you are speaking. Response is good and bad in what way. Are you saying that these coilovers don't drive as smoothly as the stock sport suspension?

Please don't take this posting the wrong way. I am not out to hassle you about anything, but to question your reasoning behind your post so we may all learn from your experience with your setup. It is just that your post is rather vague and ambiguous. Your anticipated comments are greatly appreciated.

[Dascamel]

Originally Posted by S4to335

How could you tell it was 299? Just a smidge back from the line at 300? That is high. the highest I ever saw was 280.

I'm guessing its probably easier in my case to push temps higher and faster due to the Procede. I needed to pit after 5-6 hard laps. 290+ was far to easy on an 80 degree day. If you due find a good oil cooler solution please let us know.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by sg335

I'll call you next week. I think I may need two cases. One for each car. Thanks.

Give us a call before Friday and I'll make sure I have two cases with me before I head down.

Harold

[FourPtDrift]

Originally Posted by sg335

No offense, but I am confused by your post. I can't remember your mods and they are not listen within this thread.

I'm pretty certain I've listed them a few times around this board... but in case I missed doing so in this thread:

1.) Vishnu Performance Procede
2.) KW Variant 3 coilovers
3.) H&R Anti Sway Bars
4.) Morr Alloy VS7 rims
5.) Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R tires

There it is. Not a very long list... pretty simple actually.

I did a quick search but only came up with your sway bar installation problem

Oh! Talk about bad forum manners! I need to go back and post a resolution there. Thank you for reminding me.

and thoughts about selecting the KW V2 or V3. I think you may also have the Vishnu chip. What exactly are your mods and could you please post them here?

See above.

You say that your "solution" is considerably better. As compared to what? The factory set up or other coilover systems?

I would say that for the combination of components, the solution works very well. Getting the Procede installed meant tire spinning with the stock sizes. So, I started making changes... first with the tires themselves. The RE-01R is not available in a 265/30... which meant I'd be running a 245/35 275/30 setup on my VS7 rims. While my first intention was to probably go with PSS9s it became clear that my best bet for managing ride height (and avoiding rubbing) seemed to be with the KW v3's. The PSS9 would have given me off the bat a bit more clearance, but at the expense of rebound force. The KW v3 gave me the height and support that I wanted. Once I went away from a regular spring/damper setup, I didn't want to have my coilovers performing double duty of load bearing and managing weight transfer, not to mention that the ride characteristics would change once I moved to the different contact patch of the 275's... so the sway bars became a necessity.

What are you capable of proving? What are you actually comparing your current set up to? What are you baseline numbers to start with?

In the absence of a control and a proper set of lab tests with empirical measurements and verified conclusions, I can't "prove" anything. Nor can anyone else on this forum.

Obviously my "baseline" is the car, stock. And we all pretty much have a common frame of reference in that department.

Stock, the car is fairly neutral with a SLIGHT propensity for understeer. Put Procede into the car and you get a solution which while faster in a straight line, doesn't correct understeer, unless of course you induce throttle modulated oversteer.

By implementing the solution as I described above, I believe I've arrived at a balance where I can transfer the added power to the road effectively, keep the car level so as to avoid rubbing from the much larger rubber, and yet at the same time, keep the font/rear balance neutral so as to make the car manageable around a road course. I suppose the best I can get to as far as "proving" this is this past weekend's event at Fontana. The photos pretty much confirm this.

Could you elaborate on tolerant and response? Much faster, because of the suspension mods or the chip?

The car is faster because of ECU piggyback (Procede really isn't a "chip" nor is it a flash). Its also faster because I can transfer power to the road more efficiently with a greater contact patch and more consistently because I maintain that contact patch through corners with the improved suspension setup.

Neutral, I would agree but how does this compare to your other track day experience with the stock suspension in terms of under/oversteer and under what track specific conditions? I think my car is very neutral and don't have sways installed.

Well, I set a bunch of things in motion when I started the changes with the Procede and then the rims and tires. Yes, the car starts out, stock, fairly neutral (with a little bit of understeer as I had mentioned), but if I didn't have the bars, with the current settings on my KW's and the size of the rims and tires... well... this past weekend I would have done more than just a little "rubbing."

What exactly is more complicated to set up. Adjusting rebound and compression can be done by feel alone and KW provides an initial suggested setting.

Take a look around this board and see how many had had success setting up a 275 so it wouldn't rub in a performance setting such as a road course.

If you have the KW's, I am interested in knowing why they are not as tolerant since most say they are more comfortable than stock. Don't know what aspect of tolerance you are speaking. Response is good and bad in what way. Are you saying that these coilovers don't drive as smoothly as the stock sport suspension?

I am SURE that on a much softer setting they'd be a dream. And most folks on this board have been opting for KW's for their ride height adjustment capabilities and have kept the setup, well, let's call it, "not so firm." As currently setup, my ride is MUCH more "severe" than it was with the RFT's and the stock sport suspension.

Please don't take this posting the wrong way. I am not out to hassle you about anything, but to question your reasoning behind your post so we may all learn from your experience with your setup. It is just that your post is rather vague and ambiguous. Your anticipated comments are greatly appreciated.

No need to apologize... don't feel "hassled" at all. I hope these answers help.

-Daniel

[sg335]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I now understand your reasoning behing the products you chose. It appears that you made all these mods at around the same time. It is unfortunate that they weren't done independently (most don't do this) so one can get a baseline for how each variable affects the handling of the car.

I think what we can all "prove" is before and after real world data like lap times or segment times under similar conditions to evaluate whether or not a mod made a beneficial change or not. I am really curious as to the performance differences of the KW V2's vs V3's at the track as well as the differences as comparied to the PSS9's and the TCK's. I guess we will just have to all go to a track event together and do our own testing!

So if I understand you correctly, your installation of the sways was mostly to prevent rubbing. And I would agree that larger sways will lessen this condition. I just want to know if the car is "faster" around the track with sways. I guess I will have to buy a set and find out. But I will wait on that until I get some more track time to evaluate the handling characteristics at various tracks while I change camber, toe, shock settings and air pressures.

What are your compression and rebound settings at? I am suprised that you find them severe in nature compared to stock as most say they are more comfortable. I am sure you have them set to close to maximum and therefore stiffer than most run them at. Please post your settings so we can all understand how these settings affect handling and feel. As I have said before, my TCK's as set up with stiffer springs are not for someone looking for a cushie ride, but they are set up for maximum performance.

I had PSS9's on my other car and unless the valving on these for the E9x are extremely soft, I would venture to say that you could get just as stiff of a setting on these compared to the KW's. As rebound force is adjusted, so is compression and it is not a one to one relationship. Set at full hard or one to two click back, the PSS9's are pretty agressive. Someone with E9x PSS9's will have to confirm that though. I think your choise of the V3's was a good one as it is always better to have independant control over these two settings, although almost no one ever plays with the compression once set except a few of us die hards.

I am very concerned with all the "chips" (I use this word loosely because it is faster to type) in that the increased boost may cause the cars to overheat the oil and coolant at a much faster rate. We all need to keep an eye on this and report back. Again a baseline would be how long stock could you drive at the track under what conditions before limp home mode kicked in, vs where it occurs after chipping.

[FourPtDrift]

Originally Posted by sg335

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I now understand your reasoning behing the products you chose. It appears that you made all these mods at around the same time. It is unfortunate that they weren't done independently (most don't do this) so one can get a baseline for how each variable affects the handling of the car.

The Procede was done in advance, but the rest were done at the same time. And pretty much it was done out of necessity.

I think what we can all "prove" is before and after real world data like lap times or segment times under similar conditions to evaluate whether or not a mod made a beneficial change or not.

I don't think its a big leap to say that if you can maximize contact patch with sways, then you're going to be faster.

I am really curious as to the performance differences of the KW V2's vs V3's at the track as well as the differences as comparied to the PSS9's and the TCK's.

The fellow who runs the shop that setup my car is a big proponent of PSS9's... in fact he has them on his E46 M3. BUT, with the requirements I had to meet (tire sizes and VERY hard track/autocross use), he believed that the KW v3 was the route to go. I suppose that if it were not for the more finite adjustments I needed as a consequence of my tires, the KW v2 would probably perform the same on the track - for most instances.

I guess we will just have to all go to a track event together and do our own testing!

With that in mind, I'll be "testing" again in December...

So if I understand you correctly, your installation of the sways was mostly to prevent rubbing. And I would agree that larger sways will lessen this condition. I just want to know if the car is "faster" around the track with sways.

Its true, I can't point to some historical notes to support my statements, but I'll say it anyway: yes, I believe the sways make the car faster, too. Yes, they helped BIG time to prevent rubbing... but the car can also be pushed MUCH further into a corner, remain flat, keep its contact patch, power out and as a result, be faster.

I guess I will have to buy a set and find out. But I will wait on that until I get some more track time to evaluate the handling characteristics at various tracks while I change camber, toe, shock settings and air pressures.

As you like. I think you might enjoy having the sways on. Having a car that doesn't move around as much makes for a lot of fun. The car feels "lighter" and more "nimble." And this is something I CAN attest too. The different in body roll is VERY noticeable.

What are your compression and rebound settings at? I am suprised that you find them severe in nature compared to stock as most say they are more comfortable. I am sure you have them set to close to maximum and therefore stiffer than most run them at.

They're set at about 75% of maximum. O a good road... its wonderful.. on a track... its stunning... drive over seams on a highway... and you can use the car as a method for breaking up kidney stones.

Please post your settings so we can all understand how these settings affect handling and feel. As I have said before, my TCK's as set up with stiffer springs are not for someone looking for a cushie ride, but they are set up for maximum performance.

I don't have the exact number of turns available right now. BUT, I can find out. Like I said, they're around +75%.

I had PSS9's on my other car and unless the valving on these for the E9x are extremely soft, I would venture to say that you could get just as stiff of a setting on these compared to the KW's. As rebound force is adjusted, so is compression and it is not a one to one relationship. Set at full hard or one to two click back, the PSS9's are pretty agressive. Someone with E9x PSS9's will have to confirm that though. I think your choise of the V3's was a good one as it is always better to have independant control over these two settings, although almost no one ever plays with the compression once set except a few of us die hards.

From everything I learned in my "research" I found the PSS9's to be a great product... I just saw that the KW v3's would be a better solution for ME.

I am very concerned with all the "chips" (I use this word loosely because it is faster to type) in that the increased boost may cause the cars to overheat the oil and coolant at a much faster rate. We all need to keep an eye on this and report back. Again a baseline would be how long stock could you drive at the track under what conditions before limp home mode kicked in, vs where it occurs after chipping.

You mentioned earlier about getting a better cooling system into the car. I'd deploy one in a heartbeat if it were available. No questions asked.

-Daniel

[sg335]

I have always saved the sway bar upgrade for last. Given my 500lb front springs and ability to adjust camber to -3.5 degrees, I think I am getting a good contact patch on the front and don't appear to have too much body lean. My pyrometer is broken so I could not record tire temps, but once fixed by next event we will see.

I believe the body lean discussion was directed to front end lean more than rear and looking at the pics there is a variety of lean angles. What logic I cant follow is how a front bar upgrade to H&R which is almost the same diameter as stock is going to provide much improved lateral stability and less front end lean. I don't understand how a significant increase in rear bar diameter will affect front body lean, but I am no expert at chassis dynamics. Just doesn't make layman's logical sense.

Good discussion here though.

[HP Autosport]

[QUOTE=sg335;1537998]I have always saved the sway bar upgrade for last. Given my 500lb front springs and ability to adjust camber to -3.5 degrees, I think I am getting a good contact patch on the front and don't appear to have too much body lean.

QUOTE]


We are leaving the sway-bar as our last upgrade as well. Sway-bars have always been a fine tuning tool for handling, but since it is a street driven car sway-bars will not add much harshness like springs well. Since the car seem to be very well balanced now, if we step up on the front spring rate, we may have step up the rears as well to keep it some what in balance. That will bring the spring rate to 500/600, could be a bit much in the rear for street duty. Then again that is speaking from past experiences with e46 M3's.

[S4to335]

I am passing on the sway for now..but for other reasons...I think both sg335 and I are running on the track without staggered wheels..this changes lots of stuff in regard to understeer/oversteer. We got rid of our understeer by the aftermarket suspensions (him TCK and me PSS9s) and the non-staggered set up. If, and that is a big if, I change out sways..I would opt for both front and rear..and just try to go up a tad larger in size...BTW, I am a proponent for larger sways normally..I have upgraded rear sways on just about every Audi owned..and upgraded the fronts on two of them.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I am passing on the sway for now..but for other reasons...I think both sg335 and I are running on the track without staggered wheels..this changes lots of stuff in regard to understeer/oversteer. We got rid of our understeer by the aftermarket suspensions (him TCK and me PSS9s) and the non-staggered set up. If, and that is a big if, I change out sways..I would opt for both front and rear..and just try to go up a tad larger in size...BTW, I am a proponent for larger sways normally..I have upgraded rear sways on just about every Audi owned..and upgraded the fronts on two of them.

We are running the same sieze wheels as well.

Audi's seem to like a large rear sway-bar to help it to rotate.

We may just try some sway-bars and see how it affects the car's handling.

[sg335]

I agree. Good point I forgot to mention here. I didn't drive the car on the track with the staggered stock set up to comment, but with the 18x8.5's all around with 245 40 18 Nitto NT-01's and all the other mods, the car is quite neutral.

I have played around with tire pressures and it appears that 28 to 29 lbs cold at all four corners provides me with about 40+ hot temps. This car is heavy and sees a minimum of a 10 lb increase when hot. I started with 32 cold but exceeded 40 up to 43 on some corners so I kept bleeding down until I reached 40 to 41 hot at all four corners. Later that day after the event, the cold pressures were 28-29. 40 is the recommended target hot pressure for the Nitto/Toyo R compound.

[S4to335]

With the pilot sport cups..I was at 32 front HOT and 36 rear HOT...that is what their literature says is ideal for track use with my tires. I was use to about 40 hot for RA1s.