[musc]

Why even worry if some Car and Driver staffers think the 335i is the best car all around car in the world? I am sure they have their opinions, just as we all do.

And lap times are going to be variable at different tracks, different drivers.

Seems like some of you live and die by whats printed in these magazines. These magazines are just for entertainment.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by 3000ways

Not just that article, but countless numbers of other articles by Car and Driver. I suspected their corruptness for a while now.

I believe that certain magazines do recieve payments for positive reviews and positive numbers for certain cars.

Just damn! Wow. I've read another reaction where it was stated that the Z4M coulda woulda beat 'em with better than stock tires and a strut tower brace.

Originally Posted by 3000ways

do you really honestly think a 335i is a performance vehicle than a M Z4 Coupe, come on really???

It obviously depends on conditions and how the performance is measured. On that track the Z4M was a big L. That's all the article was saying.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by bnj

Errr, I think you just did And while at it, we are far from 11s when some Evos run 10s. No matter how many "would" or "could" words we use.

If you mod a car, any car for that matter, to the nth degree, that car could potentially be faster than just about any car around. Some of these heavily modded EVOs, Mazda RX7s, RX8s, Honda ricers, etc. can get into the 10.xx-11.xx sec. 1/4 mi. range b/c they've spent many, many thousands of dollars (much more than the car is actually worth in stock form) to get them so fast...massive turbos running at 20+psi, ECU chip reflashes or piggyback computers, downpipes, cams, exhaust, pulleys, etc.

Even Shiv has tuned many EVOs (with the XEDE and then some ) that produce 600+HP and run the 1/4 mi. in the 10sec. or 11sec. range. However, we shouldn't being comparing apples to oranges.

What most of us are talking about here is a simple stock 335i + a $1,300 PROcede piggyback computer...that's it. Let's not try to compare a heavily modded car with a stock car + 1 somewhat inexpensive performance mod (which runs the turbos at a modest 14psi max level).

[stressdoc]

For all the complaints from the RS4 and Z4 M fan clubs, imagine what must be going on in the P-car forums! The turbo was a slug in the C&D review. Makes little sense to me. Most comparisons of 996/7s against 'vettes and mustangs on tracks like the VIR have the P-cars running away and hiding from the slip-sliding hard to control V8 muscle cars.

For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.

[droptop335]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.

Well stated!

[DIRKD]

SoCalRS4

I'm not tring to be a dick but I've always wondered why you are on this forum.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by DIRKD

I'm not tring to be a dick but I've always wondered why you are on this forum.

1) He used to own a E90. Remember this place has been here a couple of years.
2) It's called membership open to the public, anyone is welcome as long as they behave themselves.

[serge]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I've run against other modded EVO's before, and unless their tuned with turbos running @ 20psi and some other crazy sh!t, a PROcede 335i will walk the EVOs all day long; I guess mostly b/c of the 335i's much higher TQ. If you don't believe me, ask all these others guys on here like Walked U, CEA 3, Max Boost, JonMartin, etc.

btw -- although there's no doubt that the EVO is a great track car and a fast stock car out of the box (and even faster when modded), it's still just an econobox Mitsu, and really shouldn't be compared with a BMW 335i; these 2 cars are just not in the same class...sorry, but true.

1. FYI, Evos run 19.7psi STOCK.

2. Yes, a Procede 335 will walk a stock Evo (good luck finding an unmolested Evo)

3. Any mildly modified Evo would destroy any Procede 335 at the drag. Period. Plenty of VIIIs and IXs with bolt-ons (less than $1.5k) are in the 11's at 115+mph. Most of Proceeded 335s are in the low 13's at 107-108 mph. Have you ever seen the difference at the track between a 11sec car and a 13 one? Devastating.

4. Funny how the Evo is considered a "econobox" car in the States. In Europe and the rest of the world is considered a rallye bred car and it gets much respect, and it is almost as expensive as a 335 in most of European countries. (45k Euros > $60k )

[serge]

Originally Posted by sflgator

If you mod a car, any car for that matter, to the nth degree, that car could potentially be faster than just about any car around. Some of these heavily modded EVOs, Mazda RX7s, RX8s, Honda ricers, etc. can get into the 10.xx-11.xx sec. 1/4 mi. range b/c they've spent many, many thousands of dollars (much more than the car is actually worth in stock form) to get them so fast...massive turbos running at 20+psi, ECU chip reflashes or piggyback computers, downpipes, cams, exhaust, pulleys, etc.

Even Shiv has tuned many EVOs (with the XEDE and then some ) that produce 600+HP and run the 1/4 mi. in the 10sec. or 11sec. range. However, we shouldn't being comparing apples to oranges.

What most of us are talking about here is a simple stock 335i + a $1,300 PROcede piggyback computer...that's it. Let's not try to compare a heavily modded car with a stock car + 1 somewhat inexpensive performance mod (which runs the turbos at a modest 14psi max level).

Once again, you're wrong. You don't have to spend many thousands of dollars to get into 10's or 11's. For less than $1,500 you have a 11-sec Evo. All you need is a flash, a MBC and a catback. Want to get into 10's? Add $5k and you're there. You don't have to spend more money than the car's value.

I agree with you about not comparing apples to oranges. The 335 is a terrific and seriously quick sedan and I wish I had one instead of my Evo. But hey, we're talking about rough track/drag numbers and this perhaps the only area were the Evo outshines the 335. Don't you agree?

[e36jakeo]

Just to add a bit of credibility to this post, I have been instructing for the past 5 years and racing for the past 3.

Some of the reasons a 335i, which seemed outmatched by the M Z4, may have been able to beat it has to do with the confidence the driver needs to push the car to the car's outer limits. This is beyond lateral Gs and slalom speeds: this has to do with predictable behavior. From the article they complained the Z4 understeered on corner entry (slow) and oversteered on corner exit (can be slow, depending on how the driver deals with it). This sounds like a handful, and could lead the driver to back off just a hair in certain tricky sections (especially high speed sections). The stability of the 335i and predictability sounds like it allowed drivers to push it harder than some of the other cars.

Anyone who does a lot of track driving knows that times can vary a HUGE amount (2-3 seconds on a course as big as VIR) based just upon track conditions (hot vs. cold, humid, etc), surface conditions, etc.. Then toss in the fact that each car was driven by different drivers for only a few laps each. Basically this winds up being as much a test of which car is EASY to drive fast in only a few laps as it is which is actually fastest around the track.

I have no doubt that it two professional drivers spent the day testing the Z4 M coupe and 335i at the end of the day the best time would have gone to the M by at least a second (once they learned how to drive around its limitations and get confident pushing it further).

One last note: The M6, which was tested at the 1st VIR "Lightning Lap" was only a HALF SECOND faster than the 335i (3:10.0). That thing should be a LOT faster than that. But again, different day . . .

[foxman]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.

This is likely responsibe for the difference. Argue about the handling and brakes all day but torque curve matters.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

Some of the reasons a 335i, which seemed outmatched by the M Z4, may have been able to beat it has to do with the confidence the driver needs to push the car to the car's outer limits. This is beyond lateral Gs and slalom speeds: this has to do with predictable behavior. From the article they complained the Z4 understeered on corner entry (slow) and oversteered on corner exit (can be slow, depending on how the driver deals with it). This sounds like a handful, and could lead the driver to back off just a hair in certain tricky sections (especially high speed sections). The stability of the 335i and predictability sounds like it allowed drivers to push it harder than some of the other cars.

Anyone who does a lot of track driving knows that times can vary a HUGE amount (2-3 seconds on a course as big as VIR) based just upon track conditions (hot vs. cold, humid, etc), surface conditions, etc.. Then toss in the fact that each car was driven by different drivers for only a few laps each. Basically this winds up being as much a test of which car is EASY to drive fast in only a few laps as it is which is actually fastest around the track.

I have no doubt that it two professional drivers spent the day testing the Z4 M coupe and 335i at the end of the day the best time would have gone to the M by at least a second (once they learned how to drive around its limitations and get confident pushing it further).

One last note: The M6, which was tested at the 1st VIR "Lightning Lap" was only a HALF SECOND faster than the 335i (3:10.0). That thing should be a LOT faster than that. But again, different day . . .

All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)

I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.

I agree.

I also would not want to be the person who sorts through the 'reaction' mail there!

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.

I've found over the years that the writers for the major US car mag's are as big of fanboi's as the average car forum contributor, and just as objective...

[sflgator]

[QUOTE=boriquaguerrero;1134202]

Originally Posted by serge

1. FYI, Evos run 19.7psi STOCK.


3. Any mildly modified Evo would destroy any Procede 335 at the drag. Period. Plenty of VIIIs and IXs with bolt-ons (less than $1.5k) are in the 11's at 115+mph. Most of Proceeded 335s are in the low 13's at 107-108 mph. Have you ever seen the difference at the track between a 11sec car and a 13 one? Devastating.

hey SERGE that shit you smokin is good ....


yeah right with less $1.5k EVOS are in the 11`s

Yeah, that's not what I saw when I went to the track with my PROcede 335i. I ran 13.097sec., while the modded EVO ran 13.7xx sec. Not saying it can't be done, but it obviously depends on the mods, the track, and weather conditions.

[addicted 2 turbo]

[QUOTE=sflgator;1134263]

Originally Posted by boriquaguerrero

Yeah, that's not what I saw when I went to the track with my PROcede 335i. I ran 13.097sec., while the modded EVO ran 13.7xx sec. Not saying it can't be done, but it obviously depends on the mods, the track, and weather conditions.

I know...... im writing about SERGE saying that with less than 1.5k he could make his EVO run 11`s . .

i seen an evo doing low 10`s but he spend 70k plus in the engine.

[addicted 2 turbo]

Originally Posted by serge

Once again, you're wrong. You don't have to spend many thousands of dollars to get into 10's or 11's. For less than $1,500 you have a 11-sec Evo. All you need is a flash, a MBC and a catback. Want to get into 10's? Add $5k and you're there. You don't have to spend more money than the car's value.

I agree with you about not comparing apples to oranges. The 335 is a terrific and seriously quick sedan and I wish I had one instead of my Evo. But hey, we're talking about rough track/drag numbers and this perhaps the only area were the Evo outshines the 335. Don't you agree?

hey SERGE that shit you smokin is good ....


yeah right with less $1.5k EVOS are in the 11`s probably in the 1/8 of the mile track

[wileecoyote]

I would imagine Mark Gillies did the track times and if you don't know, he's f'ing fast. He gets paid to race historic and other race cars and I remember reading an article years back when he was with Automobile magazine he tested the then new 360 Modena at Fiorano, One of the Ferrari engineers came over to shake his hand after looking at the telemetry saying he was a hair off of Schumacher's time in the car, one of very few outsiders to do so. So if he drove then you're not going to find a lot more competent drivers to drive and assess track cars.

Plus it's not that much of a reach to think the 335i might beat a M coupe, they're closer than you'd imagine. I checked data for Nurburgring laptimes and several sources show E46 M3 at 8:22 and the same with the Z4 M Coupe, with the 335i at 8:26. That's only 4 seconds over a monstrous track.

And I've read from EVO magazine that the Z4M understeers badly, especially on track. So when that happens you're only option is to just back off a little to tuck in the nose through corners.

In summary, they're pretty close, closer than I thought and I was surprised by the results too.

[davig]

[. BTW, who needs LSD?[/QUOTE]
No kidding if it makes up its time between brake zone and apex.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)

My point is that the cars that were more confidence-inspiring and easier to get in and immediately drive fast at VIR did well in this test. This would also translate to making excellent back roads and track day car for the "average Joe" driver who would not be as skilled at managing oversteer.

As far as conditions affecting times, I should have been clearer. I mean comparing dry track to dry track, since a wet track will increase times by 30 seconds+. But a hot summer day compared to a 60 degree day will decreases both HP and traction and thus makes a big difference in lap times.

Most don't realize just how big of a difference is made by all these factors, plus tire compound, tire pressure, alignment, and even how well the seats hold you in place. The more laps you drive a car the more time you can "find" out there. It is obvious by its lap times it was pretty easy to find time in the 335i.

[bnj]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

My point is that the cars that were more confidence-inspiring and easier to get in and immediately drive fast at VIR did well in this test. This would also translate to making excellent back roads and track day car for the "average Joe" driver who would not be as skilled at managing oversteer.

Nice, 335i is for us
I would consider forum members to be Average Joe 95%. Then there are the 2.5% at the both ends...
Very few of us beats a pro who "has not had enough practice with the car in the track".