[zeel]

Originally Posted by djjasper

Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.

its not that serious...and I didn't know helix invented the intercooler.

[benzy89]

Helix didn't invent the intercooler, but they pioneered the stepped intercooler core design for the N54/N55 engines. Wagner is a budget FMIC that has taken a superior, respected & proven design (Helix) and has made it available at a significantly reduced rate by selling a lower quality core & not including upgraded FMIC piping. I'm not making any acquisitions, but it'll be very interesting to see VRSF's FMIC & CBE designs when they both get released.

My $.02, I wouldn't want budget parts installed on my car where they can have a damaging impact on the engine & quality of performance.

[nitehawk]

Originally Posted by ADVANT123

Here's where I disagree with your statement - Helix does not offer an intercooler for those who do not want to hack up their factory couplers. There was a niche to be filled and someone filled it. If Helix would make a unit with the factory couplers, I would have bought it(and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way).

What is the big issue with removing the factory couplers?
All you need to do to revert back to stock is replace the one worm clamp on the inlet side that you had to cut.

[Wduck]

Originally Posted by djjasper

Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.

I guess with that logic, no one should have made a rectangular intercooler either. Copy of BMW's. Just because it's stepped does not mean it's a copy. If Helix did have an original then they more than likely would have requested a patent on it. Is VRSF going to be treated the same because of their dp's? They sure look like a lot of the others on the market.
If the core is different then it's not a development copy, it's seems to be just shaped the same. There doesn't seem to be many different shapes a company can design within the area that they have to work with. I really don't believe Helix is concerned about losing sales to them. Helix's reputation precedes them and their sales will show.

And I do have a and love my Helix.

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by Wduck

I guess with that logic, no one should have made a rectangular intercooler either. Copy of BMW's. Just because it's stepped does not mean it's a copy. If Helix did have an original then they more than likely would have requested a patent on it. Is VRSF going to be treated the same because of their dp's? They sure look like a lot of the others on the market.
If the core is different then it's not a development copy, it's seems to be just shaped the same. There doesn't seem to be many different shapes a company can design within the area that they have to work with. I really don't believe Helix is concerned about losing sales to them. Helix's reputation precedes them and their sales will show.

And I do have a and love my Helix.

With your logic, you might as well saying that BMW should start selling Avant Garde + VMR for making CSL Rep's. THe reason why there is a problem with Wagner copying Helix's design is that it's unique. Prior to Helix, nobody was using a stepped intercooler design for the N54/N55.

Like I mentioned, we'll see what happens with VRSF's new products once they're released. YES, if there's no patent or copyright infringement, then there's no legal conflict. Is it "low" for a company to come out of no where & copy another company's proven & highly successful IC design?? YES

[Wduck]

Originally Posted by benzy89

With your logic, you might as well saying that BMW should start selling Avant Garde + VMR for making CSL Rep's. THe reason why there is a problem with Wagner copying Helix's design is that it's unique. Prior to Helix, nobody was using a stepped intercooler design for the N54/N55.

Like I mentioned, we'll see what happens with VRSF's new products once they're released. YES, if there's no patent or copyright infringement, then there's no legal conflict. Is it "low" for a company to come out of no where & copy another company's proven & highly successful IC design?? YES

Yes, it would be "low" but this is not the case. Who came out with the first aftermarket upgraded intercooler for the N54? Not the stepped design. But the others. Does that make everyone else that came out with one afterwards "low"? No. Just because they used the stepped look doesn't mean its a copy. I don't believe that they could make a core that would be comparable and sell it at their gb price without losing money. With the space constrictions that they're working within, there's not a lot of room to be different. The design seems to be one of two that we can use without shredding the front of the car. As far as VRSF goes, I was talking about their downpipes. They look like the first aftermarket dp's that were made but I'm not expecting an explanation. I'm just going to buy them. I'm sure if people can afford it, they'll get the Helix. If not they'll get another brand but, and I'm not trying to start a war here, I believe the people that do purchase the Wagner IC are really wanting the Helix but don't want or can't swing the extra money. I don't know anyone purchasing the Wagner because it's a Wagner. No offense. I believe quality and word of mouth will win out and we shouldn't stress about it.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Turbos & intercoolers have been in use for over 100 years. Intercoolers have been in many cases shaped to fit the space since the beginning. Nothing unique about the stepped design its just an intercooler shaped to fit into the available space.

[saxon]

Originally Posted by benzy89

Helix didn't invent the intercooler, but they pioneered the stepped intercooler core design for the N54/N55 engines. Wagner is a budget FMIC that has taken a superior, respected & proven design (Helix) and has made it available at a significantly reduced rate by selling a lower quality core & not including upgraded FMIC piping. I'm not making any acquisitions, but it'll be very interesting to see VRSF's FMIC & CBE designs when they both get released.

My $.02, I wouldn't want budget parts installed on my car where they can have a damaging impact on the engine & quality of performance.

didnt you just have vrsf downpipes?

i think its great that other options are out there... competition is a great thing for consumers and also for the scene as a whole

[Velocity26]

Helix was the first to apply the stepped core on an N54, if others have used stepped cores on other platforms before Helix ... did Helix copy them?

For those of you that say you only buy "the best", and not "the best value", why stop at the intercooler ... why are you driving a 335 in the first place? The reason is that you were looking for the best within a specific budget.

[F80M]

We should have these vendors prove their product performance by doing an independent back-to-back dyno comparison. So we can stop bitching?

[LivnLife31]

Originally Posted by Velocity26

Helix was the first to apply the stepped core on an N54, if others have used stepped cores on other platforms before Helix ... did Helix copy them?

For those of you that say you only buy "the best", and not "the best value", why stop at the intercooler ... why are you driving a 335 in the first place? The reason is that you were looking for the best within a specific budget.

+1

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by saxon

didnt you just have vrsf downpipes?

i think its great that other options are out there... competition is a great thing for consumers and also for the scene as a whole

Used to have VRSF DPs Swapped them out for Akras last weekend

Competition is def good, it lights a fire under everyones ass & forces new innovations to keep companies in business. This in turn gives the consumers better products & can sometimes even lead to lower prices

Originally Posted by 91Octane

We should have these vendors prove their product performance by doing an independent back-to-back dyno comparison. So we can stop bitching?

Already a work in progress

Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest

We are assembling a test rig for other intercooler in addition to our. The rig will sample temp in/out, pressure in/out, ambient temp/pressure, RPM and road speed. The intercooler inlets and outlets will be measured at the charge pipes with equal sampling areas. This information will be trended and entered into our calculator which we will make available. The calculator will take into account pressure drop from air temperature reduction (Ideal Gas Law: PV=nRT). The delta will be air flow inefficiencies. The calculator will also measure average charge air to ambient delta T as well as inlet to outlet delta T. We welcome challengers. Below is a picture of the calculator. The data entered into the calculator is NOT our intercooler results. Stay tuned.

[David1]

Originally Posted by djjasper

Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.

The "other" FMIC has been around for some time. It's not new. Just has not been available here in the states unless you knew of a way to get one. Also, to me there is no innovation in a FMIC. They all do the same thing no matter what it looks like. No different than a toilet, they all flush.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by LivnLife31

+1

+2

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by David1

The "other" FMIC has been around for some time. It's not new. Just has not been available here in the states unless you knew of a way to get one. Also, to me there is no innovation in a FMIC. They all do the same thing no matter what it looks like. No different than a toilet, they all flush.

With this ^^ mentality, we'd still be using the OEM core

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by djjasper

Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.

Point is the other company is German & its Porsche, BMW, Audi & VW products were not available in the US unless you ordered directly from Germany. I don't really know how long they have been making stepped IC's for the 335.

Regardless as I said before companies have been making IC's to fit the available space for over 100 years.

[import36]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

+2

+3

as BEAR mentioned...there's only soo many different shapes you can fit into the given space.

[djjasper]

What brand of gas and what octane do you guys use? I'm interested to see if people apply the same value proposition philosophy to any of their cars' other systems.

[robc1976]

Originally Posted by ADVANT123

Here's where I disagree with your statement - Helix does not offer an intercooler for those who do not want to hack up their factory couplers. There was a niche to be filled and someone filled it. If Helix would make a unit with the factory couplers, I would have bought it(and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way).

I have a ER not a helix....but I am getting a helix...but both the helix and ER have one thing in common...they take out the weak link, the factory couplers. The factory couplers suck...Honestly.

[robc1976]

Originally Posted by nitehawk

What is the big issue with removing the factory couplers?
All you need to do to revert back to stock is replace the one worm clamp on the inlet side that you had to cut.

+1

[venom3469]

Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest

Recently other tuner shops have attempted to imitate the Helix Stepped Core Intercooler’s (SCI) unique design and success. Given the large inquiry about what positions an intercooler as the best offering, I figured I would take this time to talk about the science and innovation put into the Helix SCI. Placing the stepped intercooler core design aside, Helix built in other innovations that are BMW/Mini intercooler market first.

Many of you have heard the terms “Tube & Fin” and “Bar & Plate”. Both of these terms refer to intercooler construction. These intercooler construction methods make up the majority of intercoolers offered to the BMW market. Each has their Pros & Cons with weight, air flow, thermal reserve, thermal conductivity, ect. Below is a picture of a Bar & Plate (top) and Tube & Fin (bottom) intercooler.



The image below describes the charge row airflow characteristics of two construction types; however the Bar & Plate image is a bit exaggerated.



The image below describes the efficiency associated with orifice inlet design. Tube & Fin inlet design has an efficiency of on .53. The Bar & Plate inlet design has an efficiency of .80. Take notice of the inlet design with a .98 efficiency rating.



The image below was taken by a customer of an intercooler that attempted to imitate the SCI design. Notice the wide flat plates between the charge rows and the sharp 90 degree transition into the charge row. This construction is consistent with a Bar & Plate design and is rated at only .80 air flow efficiency.


Below is an image of an intercooler from a tuner shop that also imitated the Helix SCI. Looking inside you can see that the construction is Tube & Fin. Notice how the charge rows protrude into the end tank air space. This inlet design efficiency is rated at a dismal .53.

The Helix intercooler is constructed from a Bar & Plate design, but Helix designed and invested in an innovative custom extruded header bar. The Helix header bar is half round and serves as a bell mouth/velocity stack into each charge row on the ambient side as well as charge row inlet and outlet. This transition is rated at .98 efficient. The Helix Stepped Core Intercooler is the only intercooler that offers these innovations. This is one more innovation that allows the Helix intercooler to outperform imitators and other offerings.




The lesson is: You really do get what you pay for.

PM sent.

[venom3469]

Delete..