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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Dyno BPC vs AA tune



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      02-17-2017, 03:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Let's not get carried away -


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=624

Whatever tune he has, isn't the same one that I have, that's for sure.
Or mine, not even remotely close. Remarkably identical to BPC, isn't it? I wonder what the actual code would show? Nice of AA to join the party BPC started but still a tad shy of the mark.
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      02-17-2017, 03:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
my only beef with you is that you and other members were trashing AA before solid prove, thats about it . We have a fair comparison now ,so that's that .

and its not that I m defending AA. But they put a lot of work in this platform , they were first to come up with a proper tune ( which has been improved by a bit by BPC) and they were first to develop affordable headers for us . They supported this platform from the beginning and a lot of us saw results

again thanks OP , this will clear a lot of things for people like me running AA tune already.

And I do not disagree BPC is a better choice for first timers, I don't think I ever argued that. I still stand by saying , its not worth it for guys already running AA tune , at least not for me .
That's not what happened.

Good thing I like to keep a record of my conversations with vendors (and everyone else)

But back in 2014/2015, I asked AA if they were selling the tune from the 128i car they used for testing their headers on - I was told the tune they sell was a "variant"

I PMd Andrew in private and asked if I could get a dyno tune, where he told me I could, but the peak gains were about 3whp vs the off the shelf, which I don't believe is a lie.


What I was upset about, and what I will always maintain, is what they are selling isn't what was advertised.

That 128i's tune isn't what they were selling you or I (which I would have been happy with) instead, it was a 3sm tune with the CEL turned off. Soft limiter was still there, DISA transition was still there, cat overheat protection was still there.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1345649&page=4
Notice no one ever bashed AA, but I did tell David I (who was previously a potential customer) was upset at the bait and switch - and you should be too.

I'm not doing it for me anymore, I'm doing it for you and everyone else.
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      02-17-2017, 03:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
my only beef with you is that you and other members were trashing AA before solid prove, thats about it . We have a fair comparison now ,so that's that and its not that I m defending AA. But they put a lot of work in this platform , they were first to come up with a proper tune ( which has been improved by a bit by BPC) and they were first to develop affordable headers for us . They supported this platform from the beginning and a lot of us saw results
We do have solid proof, have had it for years. Now that AA has fixed their lame ass excuse for a tune they're competitive again. But they didn't put jackshit worth of work into the first one since it's really not a whole lot more than mucking with the knock sensors and a little bit of timing advance. Otherwise? Nada. Cat preheat and fuel dump and DISA fourth stage still in place for their sooper dooper header tune which I demonstrated was absolutely no different to their non-header tune several years ago. So, no, they didn't put much work into it. BPC's tune is completely different, correct for header use, and miles ahead of the lame OTS tune AA originally offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
And I do not disagree BPC is a better choice for first timers, I dont think I ever argued that. I still stand by saying , its not worth it for guys already running AA tune , at least not for me .
If you're running this AA tune then yes, absolutely. If not, look elsewhere.
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      02-17-2017, 03:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
We do have solid proof, have had it for years. Now that AA has fixed their lame ass excuse for a tune they're competitive again. But they didn't put jackshit worth of work into the first one since it's really not a whole lot more than mucking with the knock sensors and a little bit of timing advance. Otherwise? Nada. Cat preheat and fuel dump and DISA fourth stage still in place for their sooper dooper header tune which I demonstrated was absolutely no different to their non-header tune several years ago. So, no, they didn't put much work into it. BPC's tune is completely different, correct for header use, and miles ahead of the lame OTS tune AA originally offered.



If you're running this AA tune then yes, absolutely. If not, look elsewhere.
I think there is some misunderstanding as to which tunes you guys were referring. I will try to clarify. Please correct me if I am wrong.

When AA came out with the tune for N52, their gen 1 tune, the tune didn't do shit. Since then, AA issued an update (in 2013?), which is their gen 2 tune. Gen 2 is an improvement over gen 1. Not many, currently active, people have gen 1. According to few posts by AA reps, AA is revisiting their gen 2 tune and is trying to get more power from it.

If you have gen 1 AA tune, then going to BPC is def worth it, as you are essentially stock.
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      02-17-2017, 03:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
I think there is some misunderstanding as to which tunes you guys were referring. I will try to clarify. Please correct me if I am wrong.

When AA came out with the tune for N52, their gen 1 tune, the tune didn't do shit. Since then, AA issued an update (in 2013?), which is their gen 2 tune. Gen 2 is an improvement over gen 1. Not many, currently active, people have gen 1. According to few posts by AA reps, AA is revisiting their gen 2 tune and is trying to get more power from it.

If you have gen 1 AA tune, then going to BPC is def worth it, as you are essentially stock.
Yeah, I have a gen 1 tune with the bullshit header tune option which does nothing and repeated requests through 2013 and 2014 (I think) asking for any updates were met with denials anything had changed. But you're right, if you have the earlier tune the BPC is worth the upgrade.
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      02-17-2017, 03:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
We do have solid proof, have had it for years. Now that AA has fixed their lame ass excuse for a tune they're competitive again. But they didn't put jackshit worth of work into the first one since it's really not a whole lot more than mucking with the knock sensors and a little bit of timing advance. Otherwise? Nada. Cat preheat and fuel dump and DISA fourth stage still in place for their sooper dooper header tune which I demonstrated was absolutely no different to their non-header tune several years ago. So, no, they didn't put much work into it. BPC's tune is completely different, correct for header use, and miles ahead of the lame OTS tune AA originally offered.



If you're running this AA tune then yes, absolutely. If not, look elsewhere.
end of the day , both dyno looks pretty similar, max power and torque almost identical. No worth going from AA to BPC

If AA has a lame too , sure , whatever , end of the day numbers are the pretty much the same, that is what matters for me on a daily commuter , as I dont track the car. I have gen 2 aa tune

Maybe AA will come with a better tune which won't cost the guys already running AA tune an arm and leg .

Im happy with the power the car has now , including power delivery. Car still running strong after 2 years running their tune, no issues with erratic rpm jumping or weird codes . That is the most important part to me
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      02-17-2017, 03:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
I think there is some misunderstanding as to which tunes you guys were referring. I will try to clarify. Please correct me if I am wrong.

When AA came out with the tune for N52, their gen 1 tune, the tune didn't do shit. Since then, AA issued an update (in 2013?), which is their gen 2 tune. Gen 2 is an improvement over gen 1. Not many, currently active, people have gen 1. According to few posts by AA reps, AA is revisiting their gen 2 tune and is trying to get more power from it.

If you have gen 1 AA tune, then going to BPC is def worth it, as you are essentially stock.
you are right , I believe the vast majority here running AA tune is running GEN 2. Also going from GEN 1 to GEN 2 is not like buying a whole new tune , the upgrade is much cheaper as far as I remember so Im not even sure why someone would not pay 100 $ or so to get an upgrade to gen 2 .At least that is what they charge around here back when I asked .
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      02-17-2017, 03:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
end of the day , both dyno looks pretty similar, max power and torque almost identical. No worth going from AA to BPC

If AA has a lame too , sure , whatever , end of the day numbers are the pretty much the same, that is what matters for me on a daily commuter , as I dont track the car. I have gen 2 aa tune

Maybe AA will come with a better tune which won't cost the guys already running AA tune an arm and leg .

Im happy with the power the car has now , including power delivery. Car still running strong after 2 years running their tune, no issues with erratic rpm jumping or weird codes . That is the most important part to me
Maybe I'm not being clear, the original AA tune was lame, did nothing to speak of, but was sold as a 3-stage-specific, header-specific tune, neither of which was really true. That they got their shit together and fixed it isn't the point, it's that they didn't do anything until BPC came along with something better, which still is per the dyno comparison.

If you're running an up-to-date AA tune then I see no reason to change unless you want that bit of extra bottom end torque.

Personally, I want BPC's Alpha-N tune that AA can't supply, and after all the bullshit I wouldn't trust them to deliver anyway. And since this will depend on lambda numbers from the dyno pulls with a custom bored TB I doubly wouldn't trust 'em.

Otherwise doesn't matter to me which one anyone uses and it's definitely nice to see competition at work.
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      02-17-2017, 03:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
That's not what happened.

Good thing I like to keep a record of my conversations with vendors (and everyone else)

But back in 2014/2015, I asked AA if they were selling the tune from the 128i car they used for testing their headers on - I was told the tune they sell was a "variant"

I PMd Andrew in private and asked if I could get a dyno tune, where he told me I could, but the peak gains were about 3whp vs the off the shelf, which I don't believe is a lie.


What I was upset about, and what I will always maintain, is what they are selling isn't what was advertised.

That 128i's tune isn't what they were selling you or I (which I would have been happy with) instead, it was a 3sm tune with the CEL turned off. Soft limiter was still there, DISA transition was still there, cat overheat protection was still there.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1345649&page=4
Notice no one ever bashed AA, but I did tell David I (who was previously a potential customer) was upset at the bait and switch - and you should be too.

I'm not doing it for me anymore, I'm doing it for you and everyone else.
so how do you explain OP results were the same as BPC results if he is not running the 128 tune.

As far as I understand you are saying the AA 128 tune is not available , sure I believe that, which means the OP has the regular gen 2 AA tune which is the one you were criticizing. However dyno results showed same max HP and Torque as BPC tune .


Op dyno results is from their off shelve tune which is not the 128 tune they were advertising , because as far as I understand from your post , that tune is not available . Again the tune AA sold OP shows almost identical results ad the tune BPC sold OP , period .

Now you have the alpha tune which I understand is better , but AA has the 128 tune they were advertising according to you which is better than the one they are selling to the public. So how do they both compare to each other? ....
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      02-17-2017, 03:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
you are right , I believe the vast majority here running AA tune is running GEN 2. Also going from GEN 1 to GEN 2 is not like buying a whole new tune , the upgrade is much cheaper as far as I remember so Im not even sure why someone would not pay 100 $ or so to get an upgrade to gen 2 .At least that is what they charge around here back when I asked .
I don't think money was the issue, but denying that anything had changed gen 1 to gen 2. That is the issue that Axiom, pete, hass are raising. They are alleging that AA said one thing, and did different.

My dyno shows that that their gen 2 tune is OK. pete should be putting down at least as much whp as I, if not more. However, with his very similar setup, IIRC, he managed to put down only 225whp. That is the issue.
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      02-17-2017, 03:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
I don't think money was the issue, but denying that anything had changed gen 1 to gen 2. That is the issue that Axiom, pete, hass are raising. They are alleging that AA said one thing, and did different.

My dyno shows that that their gen 2 tune is OK. pete should be putting down at least as much whp as I, if not more. However, with his very similar setup, IIRC, he managed to put down only 225whp. That is the issue.
Exactly, thanks.
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      02-17-2017, 04:01 PM   #34
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Im not even sure why you guys try to make it more complicatd as OP made it simple

He dyno his gen 2 AA tune and then bought the BPC tune and dyno'ed . He posted results to compare, numbers look very similar , end of story.
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      02-17-2017, 04:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
so how do you explain OP results were the same as BPC results if he is not running the 128 tune.

As far as I understand you are saying the AA 128 tune is not available , sure I believe that, which means the OP has the regular gen 2 AA tune which is the one you were criticizing. However dyno results showed same max HP and Torque as BPC tune .


Op dyno results is from their off shelve tune which is not the 128 tune they were advertising , because as far as I understand from your post , that tune is not available . Again the tune AA sold OP shows almost identical results ad the tune BPC sold OP , period .

Now you have the alpha tune which I understand is better , but AA has the 128 tune they were advertising according to you which is better than the one they are selling to the public. So how do they both compare to each other? ....
I got my AA tune for catless headers in November 2015.
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      02-17-2017, 04:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
I don't think money was the issue, but denying that anything had changed gen 1 to gen 2. That is the issue that Axiom, pete, hass are raising. They are alleging that AA said one thing, and did different.

My dyno shows that that their gen 2 tune is OK. pete should be putting down at least as much whp as I, if not more. However, with his very similar setup, IIRC, he managed to put down only 225whp. That is the issue.

but they are different cars on a dyno , you can not really compared both. You are never going to get the same numbers

I dyno mine at 230 whp , and there are some people running AA tune that have put down over 240 whp.

The best comparison you can do is something like you have done, same car, same dyno, similar conditions.

On average the cars with AA or BPC are putting down between 225hp lower end - 245 whp higher end . I have not seen anyone putting down over 250 whp yet. There a lot of factors , RWD , AWD, manual , automatic, etc etc
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      02-17-2017, 04:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W37V View Post
both are OTS.

It is a shame, but it just shows how dedicated and big enthusiasts N52 folks are.
That's fucked for an OTS canned tune.

I paid $250 for a lifetime custom tuning. I hope someone affordable comes to the market for you guys.
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      02-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by W37V View Post
I got my AA tune for catless headers in November 2015.
I got mine in april 2016 I believe.
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      02-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
Im not even sure why you guys try to make it more complicatd as OP made it simple

He dyno his gen 2 AA tune and then bought the BPC tune and dyno'ed . He posted results to compare, numbers look very similar , end of story.
Nobody's arguing the obvious.
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      02-17-2017, 04:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
but they are different cars on a dyno , you can not really compared both. You are never going to get the same numbers

I dyno mine at 230 whp , and there are some people running AA tune that have put down over 240 whp.

The best comparison you can do is something like you have done, same car, same dyno, similar conditions.

On average the cars with AA or BPC are putting down between 225hp lower end - 245 whp higher end . I have not seen anyone putting down over 250 whp yet. There a lot of factors , RWD , AWD, manual , automatic, etc etc
And that's exactly what I did. The 3-stage-specific and header-specific tune produced zero improvement over their non-specific tune. And they never provided any improved product through the life of my car until it went back into the race shop in June of 2015. Doesn't really matter though since this is all interim work until it gets rebuilt as a race engine anyway.
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      02-17-2017, 04:22 PM   #41
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The ALFA N tune is nearly identical to what he's running, I already said that.
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      02-17-2017, 04:23 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
And that's exactly what I did. The 3-stage-specific and header-specific tune produced zero improvement over their non-specific tune. And they never provided any improved product through the life of my car until it went back into the race shop in June of 2015. Doesn't really matter though since this is all interim work until it gets rebuilt as a race engine anyway.
I used to go to meets here and I have been on a 328 with aa headers and 3 stage without a tune , and the car felt different than mine which has the tune. Actually I was the reason the owner of that car got his AA tune , as it was a noticeable difference between both cars. That is all I can say about that.

However if that is true , then BPC tune also does not have any improvement as the results are the same as aa gen 2 pretty much
This is assuming we are talking about AA gen 2 tune as opposed to gen 1 which is what the majority of us have here

Im not even sure why we are talking about gen 1 AA tune here, as almost everyone running AA have gen 2 , at least thats what I bought back when I first installed the AA tune ( before their stage 3 off road tune), and this was back in 2013 or 14
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      02-17-2017, 04:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick100 View Post
I used to go to meets here and I have been on a 328 with aa headers and 3 stage without a tune , and the car felt different than mine which has the tune. Actually I was the reason the owner of that car got his AA tune , as it was a noticeable difference between both cars. That is all I can say about that.

However if that is true , then BPC tune also does not have any improvement as the results are the same as aa gen 2 pretty much
This is assuming we are talking about AA gen 2 tune as opposed to gen 1 which is what the majority of us have here

Im not even sure why we are talking about gen 1 AA tune here, as almost everyone running AA have gen 2 , at least thats what I bought back when I first installed the AA tune ( before their stage 3 off road tune), and this was back in 2013 or 14
The non-bullshit AA tune wasn't available before my car went back into the race shop so the point's moot. And nobody's arguing this obviousness either.
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      02-17-2017, 04:50 PM   #44
rick100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
The non-bullshit AA tune wasn't available before my car went back into the race shop so the point's moot. And nobody's arguing this obviousness either.
so we agree that gen 2 aa tune is a decent tune?

at least on the dyno it shows to be competitive with bpc tune
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