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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 335i HEATSOAKED.....NEED HELP



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      07-17-2009, 05:48 PM   #23
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I am surprised he is racing a car with no oil cooler and it didn't go into limp mode like most of the cars that were tested by the magazines did. I thought BMW released an additional water cooler in their performance pacakage or was it a replacement bigger radiator? I don't know why BMW never addressed the heat issues in this car before releasing it.
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      07-17-2009, 06:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92White View Post
im surprised no one has mentioned meth yet..
I would say oil cooler before that (and intercooler while you were in there)
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      07-17-2009, 06:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92White View Post
im surprised no one has mentioned meth yet..
That wont help oil temps measurably. Just intake temps which isn't the issue here.

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      07-17-2009, 07:24 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92White View Post
im surprised no one has mentioned meth yet..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDLM View Post
I would say oil cooler before that (and intercooler while you were in there)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
That wont help oil temps measurably. Just intake temps which isn't the issue here.

Shiv
+1 on both those comments. Meth is great but i think that oil cooler then FMIC and i wish they even made a Upgraded Radiator with a bigger fan.
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      07-17-2009, 08:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Mike,

How does the JB3 know the engine oil temp which was well beyond typical operating levels? That is the problem in this case. Not intake are temp (which is the only temp the jb3 can see). And intake temp has virtually no direct relationship with oil temp.

Shiv
The JB3 doesn't need to know what the oil temp is. Unlike the procede it doesn't directly control the wastegates, it just uses a modifier to adjust whatever wastegate DC the DME is commanding.

The DME is far smarter than the JB3 and procede and it is doing exactly what it is supposed to in this case- reduce boost (and prob timing and maybe throttle closure) when engine temps (oil and likely water temp as well) skyrocket. The lovely DME closed-loop control is hard to get around and no you don't need to scan the canbus and do anything, the DME has got it. But nice try shiv.

If you add 60% more air&fuel, make 50% more HP than stock on an N54 for example, well...you're going to get more heat. Engines turn heat into work and roughly 25% of the energy of combustion makes its way into the cooling system. If you're cooling system can't deal with that much more energy, you um, overheat.

I don't have any problems myself on jb3 map 5 in 80'F weather but if I did, I would start by simply draining out the coolant and putting in distilled water, a bottle of red line water wetter (or other equivalent) and perhaps some glycol antifreeze or water pump lube to keep the cooling system happy and that should help a lot with temps. You may find that you don't really need a radiator upgrade but the oil cooler if not present is probably a very good investment on a turbo car. (dumkopf bmw engineers!)
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      07-17-2009, 08:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavarianBullet View Post
The JB3 doesn't need to know what the oil temp is. Unlike the procede it doesn't directly control the wastegates, it just uses a modifier to adjust whatever wastegate DC the DME is commanding.

The DME is far smarter than the JB3 and procede and it is doing exactly what it is supposed to in this case- reduce boost (and prob timing and maybe throttle closure) when engine temps (oil and likely water temp as well) skyrocket. The lovely DME closed-loop control is hard to get around and no you don't need to scan the canbus and do anything, the DME has got it. But nice try shiv.
Nice Try? Perhaps you don't understand.

Yes, an engine 15psi tune generates more heat quickly than the it can dissipate in warm conditions and especially without an oil cooler. That is not the debate. And saying the DME is "smarter" than the JB3 or PROcede has nothing to do with it.

The point is to keep the engine from running that hot in the first place. NOT to rely on it to dial back boost when things get too hot. Because you know as well as I do, that the JB3 is still asking for X% more boost, regardless of it being a reduced boost target or not. So while the DME is thinking that it dropped boost from 8.5psi down to say 6psi, the JB3 is still inducing X% more (~12psi). Which, while lower than 15psi, is pretty nasty when coupled with 260F+ degree oil temps.

If the JB3 could actually read oil temperature, it could prevent this problem in the first place and bringing boost down to stock levels proactively when the engine gets approaches dangerous temps. And then go a step further by dropping boost back to stock levels before the ECU beings its own boost dropping safety strategies.

Shiv

Last edited by OpenFlash; 07-17-2009 at 09:00 PM.
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      07-17-2009, 08:58 PM   #29
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      07-17-2009, 09:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Mike,

How does the JB3 know the engine oil temp which was well beyond typical operating levels? That is the problem in this case. Not intake are temp (which is the only temp the jb3 can see). And intake temp has virtually no direct relationship with oil temp.

Shiv
As you should know the ECU lowers its boost targets as oil and/or water temperatures increase to unsafe levels. If unchecked the result is a limp code. The JB3 interprets this target and lowers the tuned boost level accordingly. This is the same mechanism the ECU uses to lower boost in the event of a catylist over-temperature, as I pointed out a few months ago. As I recall you were not aware of that system at the time.

Mike
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      07-17-2009, 09:24 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
As you should know the ECU lowers its boost targets as oil and/or water temperatures increase to unsafe levels. If unchecked the result is a limp code. The JB3 interprets this target and lowers the tuned boost level accordingly. This is the same mechanism the ECU uses to lower boost in the event of a catylist over-temperature, as I pointed out a few months ago. As I recall you were not aware of that system at the time.

Mike
This is good. So let's say we conduct some testing on a real engine in a real car. And have a mutually agreeable 3rd party confirm or debunk some of our respective claims. Would BMS be willing to participate in such a fact finding mission? Maybe we can start another thread and see who would like to participate.

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      07-17-2009, 09:48 PM   #32
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This thread is about an oil cooler, not who's tune has the bigger penis.
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      07-17-2009, 09:50 PM   #33
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Oh yea, and with the oil cooler in mind. My 1er has an oil cooler and even here in Vegas I don't go over 240...

Definitely get one!
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      07-17-2009, 09:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD135i View Post
This thread is about an oil cooler, not who's tune has the bigger penis.
Actually, it's about engine temps and the different ways to keep them in check. Or at least that was how I read it.

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      07-17-2009, 09:59 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The JB3 is doing exactly what it should do from a safety perspective, reducing boost under extreme temperatures. OP should consider a physical cooling upgrade like an intercooler.

Mike
Are you serious ? How does an intercooler help his oil temps ? Yes an IC will help stabilize AIT's but first and foremost an oil cooler is in order.

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      07-17-2009, 10:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Actually, it's about engine temps and the different ways to keep them in check. Or at least that was how I read it.

Shiv
That's how it started

From what I've read the PROcede is a great product. I've got friends with it and they love the flexibility. The product sells itself.

What doesn't sell it is making attacks on your competitors product without evidence. It only serves to further alienate those that currently have JB products and could somewhere down the road become your patrons.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe. I hope you are both successful and keep pushing each other. We all get a better product out of it... whether its the PROcede or the JB family.

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      07-17-2009, 11:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD135i View Post
That's how it started

From what I've read the PROcede is a great product. I've got friends with it and they love the flexibility. The product sells itself.

What doesn't sell it is making attacks on your competitors product without evidence. It only serves to further alienate those that currently have JB products and could somewhere down the road become your patrons.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe. I hope you are both successful and keep pushing each other. We all get a better product out of it... whether its the PROcede or the JB family.

Maybe it's my age or personality but I don't participate on these forums to garner a "following" of potential converts. If the truth or facts about a product hurt someone's feelings or put me in a bad light, there's really not much I can do with it.

If another vendor lies intentionally (or unintentionally as someone else's mouthpiece) about their product's features (which no doubt helped in short-term in sales), I'll call them out on it. Every single time. And if some people think I'm the "bad guy" by doing that, then it's probably best they don't buy from me. Either now or in the future.

I'm not an new e-vendor reselling other peoples product for margin. I've been doings this stuff for over a decade and I take the subject of engine tuning very serious. You can either read what I have to say and judge my data. Or you can judge me. I'm here to offer proper tunes that do what I claim they do. And hopefully shed some much-needed light on a subject that other tuners would want you to believe as a black art.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I am, in no way, trying to disrespect you. Besides, we've gotten pretty far off topic here. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, maybe another thread is in order.

Cheers
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      07-17-2009, 11:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Maybe it's my age or personality but I don't participate on these forums to garner a "following" of potential converts. If the truth or facts about a product hurt someone's feelings or put me in a bad light, there's really not much I can do with it.
If you're not here to sell your product, what are you here for? A crusade to educate the world about the evils of BMS? Honorable, but I have to call
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      07-17-2009, 11:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SD135i View Post
If you're not here to sell your product, what are you here for? A crusade to educate the world about the evils of BMS? Honorable, but I have to call
No. But if they (or anyone else) purposely mislead people with pseudo science or techno-nonsense, I'm not going to sit back and listen. I'll challenge them to prove it. Or at least ask them to elaborate. I take this stuff seriously. As you probably do with your profession. How that motive could be labeled as BS is beyond me.

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      07-17-2009, 11:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No. But if they (or anyone else) purposely mislead people with pseudo science or techno-nonsense, I'm not going to sit back and listen. I'll challenge them to prove it. Or at least ask them to elaborate. I take this stuff seriously. As you probably do with your profession. How that motive could be labeled as BS is beyond me.

Shiv
Fair enough.

Shiv if you've got someone here in Vegas with a PROcede and want to run tests vs a JB3 I would be happy to participate. I'm all for testing theories and improving the products.

Edit:
Instead of just making claims about the JB3, test them like you suggested. It was 115 here yesterday, plenty hot to test your theory.
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Last edited by SD135i; 07-18-2009 at 12:32 AM.
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      07-18-2009, 01:55 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD135i View Post
If you're not here to sell your product, what are you here for? A crusade to educate the world about the evils of BMS? Honorable, but I have to call
They are both guilty as charged to some degree. We don't need any BMS flag waving either as anyone who has been on E90post over the last couple of years knows and can attest that Terry is no tuning angel who doesn't sledge other tuning companies products...........as for who started it, how far back do you want to go?
Before anyone calls out Shiv for starting this to and thro contest with BMS, have a look at what was posted last week at Terry's N54tech forum where an OP requested information on the Procede and Coolant Pumping. A reply from WOPALX quickly turns into a full on assault about the unecessary and risky evils of using the Canbus to monitor oil and water coolant temperature to accordingly and proactively adjust boost ................It's funny to read how they try to turn this feature into a negative.
Go here for all the diatribe presented by Terry and his followers:http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4567
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      07-18-2009, 02:16 AM   #42
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I didn't waive the BMS flag. I gave props to both tunes.

I don't really want to go back to wherever it began, I was just commenting on what I was seeing in this particular thread. One's behavior does not excuse the other's anyway.

"But he called me a name first mom!"

*shrug*
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      07-18-2009, 02:25 AM   #43
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Sorry wasn't trying to single you out. Just used your post to showcase to the brethren that Terry also has a dark side but it seems to be less obvious since he started up Burgertuning.........conveniently lol
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      07-18-2009, 02:31 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
This is good. So let's say we conduct some testing on a real engine in a real car. And have a mutually agreeable 3rd party confirm or debunk some of our respective claims. Would BMS be willing to participate in such a fact finding mission? Maybe we can start another thread and see who would like to participate.

Shiv
I'm not entirely sure what the discussion is about here. The JB3 uses a "boost pivot" as a means for limiting boost as a function of the factory curve. It is tuned a certain way. It could be changed to be more aggressive, or more conservative. I think it is set at a pretty reasonable level, and in the case of the OP it is working exactly like it should. If he would like it to be "less aggressive" or "more aggressive" with respect to oil temperatures we can make that happen for him with a custom map or tuning gauge option.

BMS has a 335i without the oil cooler, and they report on the stock map they can get oil temperatures up to 300 pretty easily. I'm not sure if they have timed how long it takes to get there compared to say JB3 map 3.. but if you can get there in a few minutes stock I'm willing to bet they can get there just as fast with the PROcede or JB3.

Also it is very likely the OP is actually experiencing high IAT temp boost pullback. It is set more aggressively than the oil/water temp pullbacks.

Mike
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