[NoTempoLimitN54]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

...But I would say there are also pumping losses on the exhaust side by needing to push the turbo as well; the laws of thermodynamics say you can't gain free energy...

No free energy, just recovery of some of the lost energy vs. no lost energy recovery.

[NoTempoLimitN54]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

...NoTempo, you are obviously very knowledgeable about cars, but your comment regarding E85 is confusing for me. I have the understanding that Ethanol is bad for our engines, especially the seals and things like that. Are you saying that you are willing to trade off the negative effects of Ethanol for a higher octane? And if, so, is there any advantage adding a gallon of E85 to 93 octane fuel? Do you prefer this mixture to non-Ethanol fuel (which I have access to at a couple different stations for a price premium)?

Thanks!! From what I'm seeing, the problems with Ethanol are in BMW's made before adding ethanol to U.S. gasoline was mandated. Go take a look around in the N54 engine section of this site. There are guys running 100% E85 in tuned N54's. If anyone was going to have problems due to ethanol it would be those guys.

[insane79]

is there a web link to this article? or can someone scan it & post the pic of it?
its sad for e90 owners from the other side of the world who can't read this article

Thanks..

[NoTempoLimitN54]

Originally Posted by insane79

is there a web link to this article? or can someone scan it & post the pic of it?
Thanks..

From the quote below it sounds like I might have had it wrong about boost pressure and efficiency. But I know it has something to do with the energy efficiency of the gas exchange. I remember reading something to the effect that BMW felt that valvetronic was not needed with the turbo engine since the turbos reduced the pumping losses (obviously they changed their minds). Right now I can't remember where I read that.

Summed up the new Twin Turbo engine achieves a better fuel efficiency of 10% compared to turbocharged multipoint port-injection engines...At mid-range engine load a different wastegate position is adjusted: In order to reduce the fuel consumption the wastegates are partly opened to avoid undesired power loss by the turbine. Closing the wastegates at part load leads to a higher boost pressure, which has to be reduced by the throttle valve. Therefore the efficiency of the gas exchange process is reduced, when the wastegates are closed.

Source:
SAE Technical Paper Series 2007-01-1560
BMW High Precision Fuel Injection Conjunction with Twin-Turbo Technology: a Combination for Maximum Dynamic and High Fuel Efficiency
Cristoph Luttermann and Werner Mährle
BMW Group

Another point to note is that modern turbo engines make torque at low RPM than NA engines, allowing "taller" gearing to be used which improves fuel efficiency. The 335i N54/N55 and M3 S62 make nearly the same torque. The M3 with S62 uses shorter gearing, taking advantage of its higher redline. But the N54 powered 335i gets substantially better fuel economy.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NoTempoLimitN54

From the quote below it sounds like I might have had it wrong about boost pressure and efficiency. But I know it has something to do with the energy efficiency of the gas exchange. I remember reading something to the effect that BMW felt that valvetronic was not needed with the turbo engine since the turbos reduced the pumping losses (obviously they changed their minds). Right now I can't remember where I read that.




Source:
SAE Technical Paper Series 2007-01-1560
BMW High Precision Fuel Injection Conjunction with Twin-Turbo Technology: a Combination for Maximum Dynamic and High Fuel Efficiency
Cristoph Luttermann and Werner Mährle
BMW Group

Another point to note is that modern turbo engines make torque at low RPM than NA engines, allowing "taller" gearing to be used which improves fuel efficiency. The 335i N54/N55 and M3 S62 make nearly the same torque. The M3 with S62 uses shorter gearing, taking advantage of its higher redline. But the N54 powered 335i gets substantially better fuel economy.

If you are talking about the S65 V8 in the E9X M3, then you realize you are comparing the N54, which is a 3.0 L I6, to a 4.0L V8, with about 100 more HP. I'd hope the smaller, less powerful engine gets better fuel mileage.

[galahad05]

NTempo is correct: I read what he had read about BMW's reasons (read: excuses) for going double VANOS instead of valvetronic.

The truth was probably a mix of the above (valvetronic wouldn't bring as much to the table under boost conditions) and the fact that it would be difficult to make valvetronic work well under high RPM conditions with a turbo motor. Obviously they managed, hence the N55 2013 335i.

[accel]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/new-cars/go-news-new-cars-bmw-328i-vs-bmw-328i-65-1-roa0813

[NikosBM]

it's a no brainer really... the new f30 is not a bmw...

[cdgatti]

Originally Posted by NikosBM

it's a no brainer really... the new f30 is not a bmw...

I agree - it's like BMW set out with mantra - let's try to make a car like everyone else. It doesn't feel BMW special. If anyone cross shops these against the C class, which is a common occurrence, no one buys the BMW.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by accel

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/new-cars/go-news-new-cars-bmw-328i-vs-bmw-328i-65-1-roa0813

Thanks for posting the link.

Now having read the article, for the life of me I don't understand why R&T didn't compare the E90 with a sport package to the F30 with the sport package (and adaptive suspension). Chassis setup-wize it wasn't a fair comparison, and the writer still liked the E90 better. For some reason they then independently get in a sport-package E90 after the test and claim the E90 is hands-down the winner. Not sure why they even bothered writing the article in the first place.

[accel]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Thanks for posting the link.

Now having read the article, for the life of me I don't understand why R&T didn't compare the E90 with a sport package to the F30 with the sport package (and adaptive suspension). Chassis setup-wize it wasn't a fair comparison, and the writer still liked the E90 better. For some reason they then independently get in a sport-package E90 after the test and claim the E90 is hands-down the winner. Not sure why they even bothered writing the article in the first place.

The article could have been better.

But I think one can compare non sport e90 vs spot f30 - just do not turn f30 sport mode on. I.e. - do not press the button.

And that's my biggest complaint regarding f30 - it's not sports car. It's sports gadget.

[Wrngway]

Originally Posted by accel

The article could have been better.

But I think one can compare non sport e90 vs spot f30 - just do not turn f30 sport mode on. I.e. - do not press the button.

And that's my biggest complaint regarding f30 - it's not sports car. It's sports gadget.

I thought the following was included in the f30 sport package. It's more than just a sport mode.

non-adaptive M Sport suspension is 0.4 inch lower
larger anti-roll bars
firmer shocks and dampers

[edit] Sorry...it looks like the car in the article has the adaptive M Sport suspension and not the one offered on sport line

[galahad05]

Let's set the record straight: the f30 is a very very good performing sports sedan. It just doesn't have the same driver's-car feel as the last gen.

[Philz BMW]

I let magazines make all my decisions for me. I need to buy the car that coincides with whatever opinion some 100k per year journalist publishes. Yes, that is what I need to do to increase my manhood. And..next year if they love a different car, I will trade mine in so that I fall in line with their opinion! Dear god I want I be loved.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Philz BMW

I let magazines make all my decisions for me. I need to buy the car that coincides with whatever opinion some 100k per year journalist publishes. Yes, that is what I need to do to increase my manhood. And..next year if they love a different car, I will trade mine in so that I fall in line with their opinion! Dear god I want I be loved.

LOL - Seriously though, what annoys me about motojournalists is how they praise the newest thing out, then do a comparo of it with other cars in it's class six months later and then diss on it for the exact thing they originally liked the car for. For example, when the current gen Mustang (new) chassis came out, most of the magazines commented on how well Ford did upgrading the live axle setup that virtually eliminated axle hop in mid corner bumps. The when the new Camaro comes out with IRS, the Mustang's major fault was the live axle.

Buying a car is a lot like buying loudspeakers, buy what YOU like, not what some magazine edidiot likes.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by galahad05

Let's set the record straight: the f30 is a very very good performing sports sedan. It just doesn't have the same driver's-car feel as the last gen.

So is the Cadillac ATS, but a lot of Members here shit on it because it is an American car.

[08*E90*328i]

Just had a '13 328i loaner and couldn't get back in my E90 328i fast enough. It felt so generic, almost like driving my fiancés '13 Accord Sport. It's a nice car, but too much electronic involvement in the driving experience. Steering feels too easy and the interior is junk.

[M4LF]

Originally Posted by 08*E90*328i

Just had a '13 328i loaner and couldn't get back in my E90 328i fast enough. It felt so generic, almost like driving my fiancés '13 Accord Sport. It's a nice car, but too much electronic involvement in the driving experience. Steering feels too easy and the interior is junk.

That's funny. A couple months ago my brother was looking for a new car. He's been talking about the BMW 335i forever. I had an '07 335i so he's driven that one a few time. I figured it was a no brainer that he would pick up the new 335i. After test driving the '13 335i sport package. He ended up buying a '13 Honda Sport. He said he was not impressed with the way the new 3 handles, and that the interior is nothing special.

[shata]

Had 3% drop in value 2 days ago on my 330i. Poor thing. I have kbb.com tracker on my car for value.

[derrick603]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Now having read the article, for the life of me I don't understand why R&T didn't compare the E90 with a sport package to the F30 with the sport package (and adaptive suspension). Chassis setup-wize it wasn't a fair comparison, and the writer still liked the E90 better. For some reason they then independently get in a sport-package E90 after the test and claim the E90 is hands-down the winner. Not sure why they even bothered writing the article in the first place.

Probably because they can only test what they can get their hands on at the time of the test. In a perfect world, the e90 and f30 would have been equivalently equipped, but if they can't arrange that, then to them it's better to write an article about an imperfect comparison rather than not write an article at all.

[carve]

I've yet to drive the F30, but I haven't heard much good about it. I really hate the longer front overhang and upright pedestrian-friendly grille. My neighbor, who has an '08 335i but doesn't know a ton about cars, recently drove one when her fuel pump went out. She said she hated it and told the sales guy he was out of her mind if he thought she'd ever "trade up".

It's so bad that even consumer reports, while revieing the new Lexus IS, said it didn't compare to a real drivers car such as "...the previous generation 3-series..." LOL- no mention of the F30.

I hear Audi's are getting more fun to drive, and they're also sorting out reliability. That'll be where I look when the time comes.

[DC_Oldboy]

Wow disappointing reviews on the new F30. After all these years I think BMW is no longer the "benchmark" for sports sedan. When it's time to upgrade, I will either get into a LCI E90 or any other last generation BMW.. Maybe it's a good time to venture out on the Audi side lol.