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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wheels and Tires Forum Sponsored by The Tire Rack > Square Up the Tire Sizes



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      09-14-2007, 08:28 AM   #1
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Square Up the Tire Sizes

What do people think of running 245/40/17 on all four corners? I think the staggered set up looks good, but you lose front/rear rotatability and you promote understeer. Car is a 335xi, so gotta get the balance a little more neutral.

For the e46, I've read that a lot of advanced drivers would "square" up their set up and ditch the staggered set up. I don't see why it would be different here. Any thoughts?
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      09-14-2007, 09:04 AM   #2
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staggered is better.... square all around gives you less handling but the ability to rotate all 4 corners....
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      09-14-2007, 09:09 AM   #3
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Staggered looks better, but I believe it promotes understeer since the fronts will lose traction before the rears.
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      09-14-2007, 09:17 AM   #4
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I think I found my answer in the tracking subforum. Thanks!
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      09-14-2007, 01:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal_bimmer View Post
staggered is better.... square all around gives you less handling but the ability to rotate all 4 corners....
uh, not exactly. the same size on all four corners is a much more balanced set up and in the case of our cars actually reduces understeer. This better for handling not worse. The problem is fitting the same width up front as the rear without rolling fenders, etc.

Next I am going to read less camber on the front is better for handling cause it wears you tires more evenly....
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      09-14-2007, 02:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealm3 View Post
uh, not exactly. the same size on all four corners is a much more balanced set up and in the case of our cars actually reduces understeer. This better for handling not worse. The problem is fitting the same width up front as the rear without rolling fenders, etc.

Next I am going to read less camber on the front is better for handling cause it wears you tires more evenly....
on rwd, staggered setup handles better than non-staggered... its a proven fact...
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      09-14-2007, 02:42 PM   #7
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I think we're all on the right track here.

Everything else equal...staggered setups will tend to understeer more than a non-staggered setup. But my personal experience is that this can be quickly adjusted by playing with tire pressures (higher PSI in the front than the rear tires).

Staggered setups have the main advantage of looking aggressive...but also provide extra traction for the rear drive wheels. I believe this probably more important on a high powered 335i as opposed to my lowly 325i. This undoubtedly will help in handling and allowing one to power out of corners with more authority.

Non-staggered setups will not look as nice, but you save some money on the intial cost of tires as smaller tires cost less...and you will be able to rotate the tire prolonging life.

IMHO...I think the cost savings from going non-staggered is not worth it. I'd rather have the aggressive look instead.
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      09-14-2007, 03:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal_bimmer View Post
on rwd, staggered setup handles better than non-staggered... its a proven fact...

Really? where is that proven? On internet message boards by people who know about as much about car set up as my 2 1/2 year old? What criteria is this based on?

Give me a break. You prove your ignorance by making such a blanket statement as the one above. A RWD car does not need a staggered set up to handle well and putting a staggered set up on a rwd car does not make it better than a set of matched size tires on the same car. So much more goes into "handling" that just tire size.

I will give you my 335 if you can lap faster in a 335 with 225's up front vs. 255's of the same tire.
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      09-14-2007, 03:07 PM   #9
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FWIW, if the suspension calibration is correct, non-staggared setup will handle better.

The original 95 M3 came with 235/40/17's all around. The car handled extremely well but in inexperienced hands could become tail happy too quick. Thus in 96+, they went with a staggared setup to induce understeer quicker creating a safer driving situation. Many people went aftermarket and back to non-staggared on the car to provide the very neutral handling the car was meant to have.
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      09-14-2007, 03:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealm3 View Post
Really? where is that proven? On internet message boards by people who know about as much about car set up as my 2 1/2 year old? What criteria is this based on?
Well...a staggered setup with a properly set suspension will provide more traction and be faster around a track than a non-staggered setup. But in stock form...yes our cars will understeer more with staggered setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealm3 View Post
I will give you my 335 if you can lap faster in a 335 with 225's up front vs. 255's of the same tire.
Wow...this I would pay $10 to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
FWIW, if the suspension calibration is correct, non-staggared setup will handle better.
I agree...I think staggered will induce more understeer on our cars in stock form. But I still feel you can counter this by playing with PSI. Or...and an aftermarket rear sway bar will also help.
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      09-14-2007, 03:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
I think we're all on the right track here.
Most of us are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
Everything else equal...staggered setups will tend to understeer more than a non-staggered setup. But my personal experience is that this can be quickly adjusted by playing with tire pressures (higher PSI in the front than the rear tires).
True. You can dial out some understeer with tire pressure, but for serious track time you'll feel more comfortable and the car will be better off with a bigger size up front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
Staggered setups have the main advantage of looking aggressive...but also provide extra traction for the rear drive wheels. I believe this probably more important on a high powered 335i as opposed to my lowly 325i. This undoubtedly will help in handling and allowing one to power out of corners with more authority.
Correct. More horsepower (335) needs more tire at the rear to have enough traction to put the extra power to the ground. But equally increasing the size up front will add extra grip that will make the car even quicker. BMW does not do this for liability reasons. A car that understeers is much safer than a neutral car. Look at what happened with the E36 M3: 1995: 235’s all the way around = excellent handling car that was very balanced, but people were crashing them and BMW lawyers said to the engineers: do something before we get sued. 1996: Car comes with 225’s up front and 245’s in the rear = safer in the hands of the average American who doesn’t know how to properly control a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
Non-staggered setups will not look as nice, but you save some money on the initial cost of tires as smaller tires cost less...and you will be able to rotate the tire prolonging life.

IMHO...I think the cost savings from going non-staggered is not worth it. I'd rather have the aggressive look instead.
Yep. Sounds like you are buying the staggered set up for the right reasons.
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      09-14-2007, 03:19 PM   #12
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For winters, I think I'm going to try 245/40/17 Dunlop 3D's mounted on Kosei K-1 Racing 17x8.5 on all 4 corners. I think the offset is 40mm. If the rear looks too tucked, I guess I can use a spacer...
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      09-14-2007, 03:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
The original 95 M3 came with 235/40/17's all around. The car handled extremely well but in inexperienced hands could become tail happy too quick. Thus in 96+, they went with a staggared setup to induce understeer quicker creating a safer driving situation. Many people went aftermarket and back to non-staggared on the car to provide the very neutral handling the car was meant to have.
Hahaha. You beat me to it. I was typing my response while you posted. Great minds think alike...
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      09-14-2007, 03:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealm3 View Post
True. You can dial out some understeer with tire pressure, but for serious track time you'll feel more comfortable and the car will be better off with a bigger size up front.
Do you mean that the handling is more predictable?

If you dial out the understeer on a staggered setup, shouldn't that still handle nicely in comparison to a non-staggered setup? Or does a sorted out staggered setup still have more problems (like snap oversteer?)???
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      09-14-2007, 03:25 PM   #15
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Here are the calculations if I get the Kosei K-1 Racing with 40mm offset to replace the staggered 18" sport package rims on a 335xi:

Front:
12mm LESS clearance on the strut side, and the outside edge of the wheel will extend to THE SAME point as the stock wheel

Rear:
3mm LESS clearance on the strut side, and the outside edge of the wheel will RETRACT 3mm

Would I be okay with the fronts, or should I use spacers all around (maybe 10mm spacers...)
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      09-14-2007, 03:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by who's ur daddy? View Post
For winters, I think I'm going to try 245/40/17 Dunlop 3D's mounted on Kosei K-1 Racing 17x8.5 on all 4 corners. I think the offset is 40mm. If the rear looks too tucked, I guess I can use a spacer...

Well, I live in CA and I only see snow 2-3 times a year so I am by no means an expert in what works well for cold climates, but I thought the general school of thought was a narrower tire works better in the snow? Like 225/45/17?

I would not worry too much about the looks of the tire in the fender during the winter. I’d be more concerned with keeping the salt/sand/snow/ice off the car. That crap destroys paint.
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      09-14-2007, 03:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
Do you mean that the handling is more predictable?
Yes. The wider tire will have to work less hard to brake, accelerate, and corner (less heat). And will last much longer into a session/race before it gets greasy. Not too mention with more contact patch it will brake more efficiently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedogg View Post
If you dial out the understeer on a staggered setup, shouldn't that still handle nicely in comparison to a non-staggered setup? Or does a sorted out staggered setup still have more problems (like snap oversteer?)???
Yes it will handle nicely and if done properly with suspension mods and alignment changes you really would not notice much difference. Heat may be a factor for the front tires though. Personally if I were setting my 335 up for track days/racing, I would go the other direction and try to make the rubber as close in size as I could and then work the kinks out via suspension parts and settings.
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      09-14-2007, 03:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealm3 View Post
Well, I live in CA and I only see snow 2-3 times a year so I am by no means an expert in what works well for cold climates, but I thought the general school of thought was a narrower tire works better in the snow? Like 225/45/17?

I would not worry too much about the looks of the tire in the fender during the winter. I’d be more concerned with keeping the salt/sand/snow/ice off the car. That crap destroys paint.
Yep, narrower to cut thru the snow. But I want more traction in days without snow!

I don't care about salt/sand/snow/ice - leased car... :P )
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      09-14-2007, 03:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by who's ur daddy? View Post
Here are the calculations if I get the Kosei K-1 Racing with 40mm offset to replace the staggered 18" sport package rims on a 335xi:

Front:
12mm LESS clearance on the strut side, and the outside edge of the wheel will extend to THE SAME point as the stock wheel

Rear:
3mm LESS clearance on the strut side, and the outside edge of the wheel will RETRACT 3mm

Would I be okay with the fronts, or should I use spacers all around (maybe 10mm spacers...)
Hard to say without mounting the wheels and checking clearance. (on paper and real world can be different, you know?) I have not messed with my E90 at all so I really can't say how much wiggle room BMW put in there. The rear should be fine based on what you have posted, but I would be cautious with the front. A ten mm spacer would get you closer to factory offsets, but may not be needed. I honestly would call tire rack (Gary) and pick their brains to see what works and what doesn't. Cause honestly, they are way more knowledgeable that us on the board when it comes the wheel/tire fitment. Tell them your goals: non-staggered 18’s, light weight, winter tires; and I am sure they’ll put together a package that works.
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