[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

You guys agree, and you don't even know it. We all know driver skill is most important. If you spend your money on track time you will be faster than if you spend money on an ecu upgrade, tires, and suspension. So obviously Mario Andretti driving a 325i is going to kill me in my 335i. But give Mario both cars, and his laps times will be far better in the 335i.

Yes, I'm talking equal drivers. Ceteris parebus.

If you put Joe Beginner in a Arial Atom and he goes around T10 at 35mph because he's so spooked from nearly pushing into oblivion at T9 and you put an instructor in a Spec E30, who perfectly executes T10 with a 80mph exit speed, the Spec E30 will probably get to T11 faster.

The Spec E30 is therefore as fast as the Atom. That's a silly argument, don't you think?

[nicknaz]

westwest this will be a tough e-argument for you to win unless you show lap times in a competitive TT group that show the cars with statistically similar times

As a NA E90 driver I would love your argument to hold true in all cases but the reality I find is that in faster groups with a higher skill level such differences in corner exit speed are very hard to find. my $.02

leftcoastman, thanks for the input. Do you attend NASA norcal or HOD HPDE days? I'd love to pick your brain for some E90 specific tips if you have time. I came from AWD (WRX) and am still trying to feel my way around OWD

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Yes, I'm talking equal drivers. Ceteris parebus.

If you put Joe Beginner in a Arial Atom and he goes around T10 at 35mph because he's so spooked from nearly pushing into oblivion at T9 and you put an instructor in a Spec E30, who perfectly executes T10 with a 80mph exit speed, the Spec E30 will probably get to T11 faster.

The Spec E30 is therefore as fast as the Atom. That's a silly argument, don't you think?

Exactly

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by westwest888

I just thought of a relevant example. Ever have a "track buddy" in your run group at an HPDE who was roughly equivalent in speed to you all weekend? And then you notice in the last session on the last day of the event, he pulls ahead inexplicably?? Then when you come back to the paddock you look in his car and realize he had no instructor - he lost 165 pounds. Now multiply that by 2 and stick it over the front axle. That's the diff between a 325i and a 335i. For a beginner (it may be safe to say we're all beginners/students, save the CCA instructors who post here frequently) the extra weight is a handicap at least as much the extra horsepower is a bolster.

OK dude, now this is getting into a pissing match, clearly. You have resorted to spreading misinformation.

The 335i (3571 lbs) is a whopping 220 lbs heavier than a 325i (3351 lbs). Given the weight distribution:

49.9F / 50.1R for 325
51.2F / 48.8R for 335

You are looking at 1672 lbs on the front axle of a 325 and 1828 lbs on the front axle of a 335i. By my rudimentary math, that ain't 330lbs difference. That's 156 lbs.

That said, the whopping 220lbs total difference is backed up by bigger brakes, bigger tires and a near 50% increase in power.

[DrDomer]

2003 BMW 325i is roughly 3280lbs and has 184HP = 17.8 lb/hp

2007 BMW 335i is roughly 3580lbs and has 300HP = 11.9 lb/hp

Even if every extra pound was in the engine bay (which it isn't) the 335i HP advantage is soooo great that in the same hands I can't imagine a scenario where the 325i wins. Not to mention the weight distribution is similar (51.4/48.6 in 335i). I can't imagine the 325i can stop as well as the 335i with it's much larger brakes. The contact patch is much larger for the 335i also.

Just seems like there's no way for a 325i to win over a 335i. Wouldn't matter if I was driving or Mario was driving.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Can't say much. I've ridden in students' Evos and STis, but haven't driven one myself. Coming from my earlier open diff, I was very jealous of their ability to power out of turns.

They felt different. Fast, for sure. I don't like em because I couldn't (granted it was from the "other seat") get the car to rotate. I told him to lift lightly in a decreasing radius turn, where I normally lift to get the car to rotate. In his STi, the damn thing just kept pushing.

S4to335i went from an AWD to OWD (one wheel drive), so he'll be able to answer this question better. He'll be objective, as long as he doesn't start thinking about his one wheel peels on corner exit. At that point, smoke starts coming out his ears.

The thing about STi/Evo/Audis...you can get back on throttle sooner (before APEX)...if something pushes..its because it wasnt set up properly to begin with.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by S4to335

The thing about STi/Evo/Audis...you can get back on throttle sooner (before APEX)...if something pushes..its because it wasnt set up properly to begin with.

Some Subaru owners hose the car's ability to corner by adding aftermarket bits try and 'fix' the body roll..

S4to335 any thoughts on reliability of these modified turbo/AWD cars? I'm thinking of getting back into a turbo subaru at some point and i'm trying to gather tech on how well the cars last when modified. Having a hard time finding sample since most track users seem to succumb to the allure of chip/turboback exhaust/etc

[longodj]

wait a minute...are we honestly discussing whether a 325i would beat a 335i around a twisty track? Not to be a 335 fan boy or anything but even the reasonable NA drivers (Nick) will say that there's no way... The 335 DOES stop better, it has a crap ton more power. Yes the weight has a marginal effect, but the 335xi weighs more than a 335i...does that mean that the 335i will beat the xi regardless of the conditions? No! If you want to talk about reliability, fine, but the 335i puts E46 M3s to shame every day, i doubt the same can be said about the 325i...

[satakal]

I was hoping it wouldn't resort to this...


________
Medical Dispensaries

[LOLrance]

Very interesting arguments here + a wealth of knowledge. subscribed for future reading.

[S4to335]

I dont like hitting blue armco...and besides..I am like a zillion miles from there.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by westwest888

You've had your car corner balanced. What did the sheet say?

I'm reading 3277 with 3 gal of gas. I don't have power seats.

Just as I don't think my car is a fair comparison because of the track prep I've done, I don't think your car is a fair comparison either.

That said, I'm reading 3480 with 10 gallons of gas.

That's less than 200lbs difference. I have power heated seats. With standard seats, the difference would be less.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by westwest888

We can settle this at Watkins Glen, with sportsmanlike conduct:

http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...35341150AA3313


Audi Club NA - Northeast Chapter
Saturday Oct 25 - Sunday Oct 26
Watkins Glen Int'l , Watkins Glen, NY


Not sure if that club sucks or not, but I was looking at going to this event.

lol ok. I didn't mean any disrespect. It's just...many other NA E9x drivers have openly admitted their cars are great (which I agree with!) but purely in terms of on track speed they cannot keep up with E46 M3s and E9x 335s...

Here's my schedule if you'd like to meet

August 23-24th NASA/PDA - Pocono South
August 27-28th BMWCCA - Watkins Glen
September 6-7th NASA/PDA - Pocono North (Maybe...)
September 27-28th BMWCCA - Watkins Glen (O'Fest)
October 4-5th NASA/PDA - Watkins Glen
November 8-9th NASA/PDA - NJ Motorsports Park

Although I'll include the caveat that I'm not nearly as experienced as leftcoastman or S4to335 I just know from seeing this first hand, and personally passing M3s with no real effort...

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by longodj

wait a minute...are we honestly discussing whether a 325i would beat a 335i around a twisty track? Not to be a 335 fan boy or anything but even the reasonable NA drivers (Nick) will say that there's no way... The 335 DOES stop better, it has a crap ton more power. Yes the weight has a marginal effect, but the 335xi weighs more than a 335i...does that mean that the 335i will beat the xi regardless of the conditions? No! If you want to talk about reliability, fine, but the 335i puts E46 M3s to shame every day, i doubt the same can be said about the 325i...

Yea, I don't understand why the discussion is on going. This is pretty clear cut. If there any type of meaningful acceleration zone involved, a 335 will run away and hide from a 325/328/330 (I am thinking of T11 exit at sears point as I type this.. no matter how badly a big power car pooches that corner exit I can't hang going down the 'straight' no matter how nicely I exit that turn... if I pass someone between T10 and T11 its because the other guy decided to back off going into T10, not because my car is magically super fast)

Some of the other stuff like braking, and in corner speed is pretty tire dependent, I'm not as sure there is a meaningful difference there... but really .. it isn't even worth discussing on-line.

EDIT: let me know how the meet goes guys, I'm on the wrong coast or else I'd love to join as well

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Uhhhh, 325i stops faster in every scenario. Less weight is less kinetic energy which needs to be converted to heat energy via the brakes to stop the car. Larger brakes dissipate more heat energy better over a length of time, but not at a given moment. If you can pulse the ABS at any given moment, you're using maximum brake power.

It takes as much force to bring a 325i from 75 to 0 as it does to bring a 335i from 82 to 0, measured in joules. If they were going the same speed the 325i would simply stop first. On the track, he can brake later, take a tighter line, or both.

You are focusing on heat dissipation. You imply that it is not important. However, last I checked, my sessions were 20 mins long and heat dissipation was very important.

Ignoring that - would you disagree that bigger rotors provide more brake torque? Violating physics is a tough argumentative position to take.

And given your challenge of someone in a 335i coming to your track to do a comparison to your 325 ---- you are nuts. Your car is modified to hell. If you are using your car as a specimen for 325, let me use my 335i as a specimen. On a typical 1.75-2.5 mile course, I'm posting faster times than instructor driven 997S.

Are you telling me your 325, with coilovers is posting faster times than a 997S? Please dude, quit digging a hole for yourself.

I will fully admit that I cannot keep up with a C6 Z06. There is no shame there. Just as there should be no shame for you to admit that your car, with nearly 100 less horsepower, skinnier tires and smaller brakes, cannot keep up with a 335i.

[leftcoastman]

My last post in this silly thread is going to be a quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Yea, I don't understand why the discussion is on going. This is pretty clear cut.

[BMWdrmz]

Originally Posted by westwest888

I will end this thread by saying that a 2700 pound gutted 1996-1999 e36 M3 would kill both of our cars, and that the OP should buy one. That thing is a beast.

A gutted and sorted E46 M3 is also a beast. I'm a bit torn wrt this thread. I will admit that when I tracked my 335i (its modded) I passed my share of stock e46 M3s and some modded ones. However, I think it had more to do with being a little better driver and more familiar with the course then my car being better. The 335 IS A VERY COMPETENT vehicle, however, compared to my M3 (which is built to NASA TTB specs; totally gutted just under 3000 pounds with me and 1/8 tank of gas, consistently puts a dyno tested 295 HP to the ground) it just doesn't compare on any track I've run. I have yet to have any 335i with suspension and power mods pass me in my run groups if I'm pushing. Granted this is probably an apples to oranges comparison comparing my tracked out M3 to a stock or slightly modded 335. To the OP, you may also want to consider a S2000. The couple of guys that race and do TT with them are insanely fast, plus they're reliable.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by BMWdrmz

A gutted and sorted E46 M3 is also a beast. I'm a bit torn wrt this thread. I will admit that when I tracked my 335i (its modded) I passed my share of stock e46 M3s and some modded ones. However, I think it had more to do with being a little better driver and more familiar with the course then my car being better. The 335 IS A VERY COMPETENT vehicle, however, compared to my M3 (which is built to NASA TTB specs; totally gutted just under 3000 pounds with me and 1/8 tank of gas, consistently puts a dyno tested 295 HP to the ground) it just doesn't compare on any track I've run. I have yet to have any 335i with suspension and power mods pass me in my run groups if I'm pushing. Granted this is probably an apples to oranges comparison comparing my tracked out M3 to a stock or slightly modded 335. To the OP, you may also want to consider a S2000. The couple of guys that race and do TT with them are insanely fast, plus they're reliable.

Haha! Your E46 M3 is a beast, are you kidding? That's an apples to diamonds comparison

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by westwest888

How about you go race leftcoastman? Get a point by on video. lol.

keep me out of this e-argument man

I'm the first to admit when my machine or my skills are insufficient (tip: this kind of self honesty helps keep you on track and away from walls)

random comment 1: E90 328/335 come with same width tires stock, and can fit the same tires/wheels

random comment 2: compare area under curve of 325/328/330 vs 335 dyno chart instead of peak values.. big power difference is more obvious that way

random comment 3: i suspect when you move from DEs to TT/club race you will get surprised by how much harder it is to get point bys and how many more you will be giving when the big power cars get combined with better drivers

[deve]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Uhhhh, 325i stops faster in every scenario. Less weight is less kinetic energy which needs to be converted to heat energy via the brakes to stop the car. Larger brakes dissipate more heat energy better over a length of time, but not at a given moment. If you can pulse the ABS at any given moment, you're using maximum brake power.

It takes as much force to bring a 325i from 75 to 0 as it does to bring a 335i from 82 to 0, measured in joules. If they were going the same speed the 325i would simply stop first. On the track, he can brake later, take a tighter line, or both.

Also, we're talking about a North American e90 325i with a 3.0L block, not a 170 hp 2.5L 325i from 2003.

Before making this kind of silly statements why not to look up info on internet? There tonns of test results out there.
For example (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...del=3%20Series)
335:
60 - 0 (ft): 109
Slalom (mph): 69.5
1/4 Mile (sec @ mph): 13.4 @ 104.3

330:
60 - 0 (ft): 112
Slalom (mph): 67.4
1/4 Mile (sec @ mph): 14.7 @ 96 mph

335 brakes better (due to bigger brakes), carries more speed through slalom (due to bigger tires and maybe suspension), eats out 330 in quoter mile test (hps).

[jahwerx]

Originally Posted by westwest888

You've had your car corner balanced. What did the sheet say?

I'm reading 3277 with 3 gal of gas. I don't have power seats.

Mine is 3417 lb
871 - 845
848 - 853

~ 7 gal fuel, no driver.

I have power everything, all goodies except iDrive

(Edit: weight reducing mods are 10 lb per corner - wheels, and perhaps slightly less weight with the BBK)

[longodj]

Originally Posted by westwest888

Firstly, I'm disappointed this kind of ignorance is coming out of the SF Bay Area. I thought there was a high concentration of talented engineers there. 1/4 mile time - keep it. Braking I'll debate you on.

3 feet is within the margin of error. Those tests were conducted on two surfaces with a different coefficient of friction. Humidity, temperature, tire wear, tire pressure, and even the condition of the brake pads and the consistency of pad transfer to the rotor all matter.

Take one 335i and one 325i on a road course. Swap the wheels from one car onto the other for each test to take out a non-brake variable. The 325i will stop quicker every time until its brakes literally fail from overheating. 3277 pound vehicles stop more quickly than 3577 pound vehicles every time. Caveat: after perhaps 100 stops in rapid succession the fluid will boil, and the lines will fill with air. The 335i's 350mm discs might bleed the heat off slightly longer than the 300mm discs, or they might have already overheated from converting that much extra kinetic energy into heat energy (stopping).

80 mph = 35.7632 meters / second
3577 pounds = 1622 kg
3277 pounds = 1486 kg
kinetic energy = (0.5) * m * v^2

K335i = (0.5) * 1622 * 35^2
K335i = 993,475 joules
K325i = 910,175 joules

This calculation is rather generous, because the 335i according to everyone on this board is moving A LOT FASTER. Because velocity is squared, a marginal increase in speed like 8 mph makes it MUCH HARDER to stop the vehicle and will overheat your brakes MUCH SOONER:

88 mph = 39.33952 meters / second
K335i@88mph = 1,255,101 joules

The speed increased 10% but the energy you're carrying went up 26%. By some measure, that's your danger coefficient.

With race pads on my stock rotors, I can pulse the ABS at any speed and at any time on the track. Even on stock pads, you can engage ABS for many, many stops in a row until your brakes fade. You can make some BMW-marketing-inspired claim that the 335i's larger calipers have more clamping power, but you NEVER want to lock a wheel on the track or on the street. Both cars in stock variety can clamp until the wheel locks. You want to apply pedal pressure just shy of the point where ABS sends you one pulse, letting you know you screwed up.

Anyone else want to copy and paste marketing jargon into the thread, and declare applied physics null and void with respect to driving?

Can we stop this? The thread is about the best track car...if he can't afford a 335 and still wants a bimmer, sure get a 328. If he can, get a 335 and make sure it has an O/C. The stupidity of proving a 325's worthiness over a 335's should be taken to the track.