[Artmasterx]

Even though I am living in Europe at the moment, I am American at heart (and hopefully in physical presence in another year or two).

I see articles like these and think of the these new proposed CAFE standards... we need to get more diesels over here.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/au...ngle_tank.html

In the good ole USA measurement system, this equates to about 816 miles on 16.9 gallons.

This works out to be 48.3 mpg (highway-ish) in a car with nearly 190 hp/330 lb-ft torque and a 8.0 second 0-60 time... all in a car weighing 3850 lbs (based on Jag UK website).

But I guess unless gas prices go up quite a bit and regulations allow them to pass emissions in every state, the US will still get shafted on this type of car...

I'm not saying everyone would want one, but they make excellent DD's and family vehicles.

So sad.

[TK-421]

i borrowed a 335d for a while and was blown away at the gas mileage i got while still having a blast with it. the perfect dd in my opinion

[ptack]

I had a 335d loaner and I was so unimpressed I had to double check the badge to make sure. I'm sure the mileage was great, but I thought the performance was nothing special.

To the OP - gas taxes in the US are way lower than in most of Europe so there isn't as much of an incentive for people to want diesels. If there was a much greater difference in price then more people would want them and car companies would sell them. You can still get German diesels, but I think that's about it for cars.

[Artmasterx]

Originally Posted by ptack

I had a 335d loaner and I was so unimpressed I had to double check the badge to make sure. I'm sure the mileage was great, but I thought the performance was nothing special.

To the OP - gas taxes in the US are way lower than in most of Europe so there isn't as much of an incentive for people to want diesels. If there was a much greater difference in price then more people would want them and car companies would sell them. You can still get German diesels, but I think that's about it for cars.

ptack, I am sure you have a much higher standard of acceptable performance than the average person (which is completely cool)... and the fact that you don't call it unacceptable probably means that most people would think it good or great.

They generally can't/won't supplant performance cars, but I think you could take 80% of the cars in America and put a decent diesel in them and the drivers wouldn't notice. Well, at least they wouldn't really care except it's a bit louder.

I totally agree with the tax issue. I think the gas tax alone in most of Europe is more than US consumers pay per gallon total.

With all the CAFE increases planned, we are either going to have to seriously sacrifice performance, get some diesels, and/or get heavily into hybrid/electrics. In Europe, there is certainly a sacrifice in performance (via hefty taxes on high-output cars) and diesels. I guess the US is starting down the hybrid/electric route, but unless cars get a lot lighter-weight and/or we will have to give up performance.

Of course, I am referring to the mainstream cars. As CAFE goes up, car companies won't be able to sell as many high-performance cars, which means they will be able to charge more.

At least it today and not 2025...

[maswastage]

I'm right there with you, op. If I had the option I'd probably be driving a 123d 5 door, getting 55mpg and doing 0-60 in about 7 seconds. If that's not the best of all worlds I don't know what is.

That said, I do love my 335d and I'm glad they at least had the sense to bring it over. With modern diesels there's pretty much no compromise in performance or drivability. You just get mountains of torque and tons of miles for your gallons.

[blue2fire]

Not really. I want to drive petrol cars till we lose the cheap prices that we are blessed with, then maybe switch to Hydrogen or something.

You just don't need to, in the US unless you fancy yourself a massive eccentric. A 335d needs to go more than 100k mi to justify the difference over a 335.

Originally Posted by ptack

I had a 335d loaner and I was so unimpressed I had to double check the badge to make sure. I'm sure the mileage was great, but I thought the performance was nothing special.

Quite brave of them to loan out a d. I wonder how many times it was misfueled.

[mtla4]

Diesel are ok nothing to blow me away. If I want fuel economy Ill get a Sentra or Corolla. Just way cheaper unless you drive a gazillion miles per year. The torque is great with diesel but like I said not really worth it.

[maswastage]

Originally Posted by blue2fire

A 335d needs to go more than 100k mi to justify the difference over a 335.

Incorrect. There is no price increase that needs to be justified. The 335d is cheaper than the 335i thanks to the Eco credit. Depending on how much you drive, you can also save thousands per year on fuel. I've run numbers for myself, and I'm saving $1000 on fuel alone compared to my previous gas powered 3 series.

Diesel may not make sense for everyone, but it certainly does make sense for a lot of people.

[blue2fire]

Originally Posted by maswastage

Incorrect. There is no price increase that needs to be justified. The 335d is cheaper than the 335i thanks to the Eco credit. Depending on how much you drive, you can also save thousands per year on fuel. I've run numbers for myself, and I'm saving $1000 on fuel alone compared to my previous gas powered 3 series.

Diesel may not make sense for everyone, but it certainly does make sense for a lot of people.

Where is this eco credit? It's not on the BMW Website like it used to be.

[TimZ]

I really wish we had the diesels in America. I would be all over a nice 1 series diesel for the city

[dcorn]

I got a 335d loaner once. The torque was amazing compared to my tuned 335i.

I drive 80 miles a day, mostly highway, so I'm really thinking about jumping ship to a TDI of some sort. Can't even afford a used 335d at this point, and I want a manual.

[NYC6]

Good ole hi test gasoline for me. Diesel is for trucks and buses.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by blue2fire

Where is this eco credit? It's not on the BMW Website like it used to be.

I thought that the eco credits were tiered and capped.

[///M3THOD]

Originally Posted by dcorn

I got a 335d loaner once. The torque was amazing compared to my tuned 335i.

I drive 80 miles a day, mostly highway, so I'm really thinking about jumping ship to a TDI of some sort. Can't even afford a used 335d at this point, and I want a manual.

I had a 335d as a loaner as well. While I was impressed with the car's drivability and power delivery... it in NO way compared with the tuned N54 in my car.

I liked that I could drive it aggressively and not be rewarded with low teens returned in fuel mileage avg's.

What I did not like about it was the price of diesel, the racket.. even though far more subdued than most diesels, of the engine... and the fact that EVERY single time I pumped fuel there was sticky diesel residue all over the pump handles and consequently my hands. I mean every single time.

[MikeyV]

Originally Posted by maswastage

I'm right there with you, op. If I had the option I'd probably be driving a 123d 5 door, getting 55mpg and doing 0-60 in about 7 seconds. If that's not the best of all worlds I don't know what is.

Tis a pity you can't get a 123d 5 door, only the coupe and convertible get the tt 2.0d.

[attbimmer]

We've Had an X5d for a little over a year and we love it. Over 50% better milage than our previous 4.8 X5 and it has plenty of power/torque. Don't miss the v8 at all. Diesel is slightly more than premium, but the percentage is still very small compared to the improvement in gas milage. Total fuel cost for the year has gone down significantly and to make things even better it was much cheaper than the v8 x5 and came with a tax credit.

[Shafz325]

Originally Posted by MikeyV

Tis a pity you can't get a 123d 5 door, only the coupe and convertible get the tt 2.0d.

Really?

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/b.../summary/53753



Diesels more expensive than petrol here in the UK too, but seems to be extremely popular..

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by attbimmer

We've Had an X5d for a little over a year and we love it. Over 50% better milage than our previous 4.8 X5 and it has plenty of power/torque. Don't miss the v8 at all. Diesel is slightly more than premium, but the percentage is still very small compared to the improvement in gas milage. Total fuel cost for the year has gone down significantly and to make things even better it was much cheaper than the v8 x5 and came with a tax credit.

Ditto.

Just completed a 600 mile trip in the X5 on one tank with gas to spare.

I do find it interesting that the guys in the US face higher prices for diesel. Since we've had both of our diesels, it has cost anywhere from 25-90 cents less than premium fuel (currently 68 cents less). Our ML gets slightly better mileage than the X5.

[Artmasterx]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Ditto.

Just completed a 600 mile trip in the X5 on one tank with gas to spare.

I do find it interesting that the guys in the US face higher prices for diesel. Since we've had both of our diesels, it has cost anywhere from 25-90 cents less than premium fuel (currently 68 cents less). Our ML gets slightly better mileage than the X5.

I assume it has something to with refining capacity for diesel relative to demand... taxes on diesel in the US are only about $0.05/gal more than gasoline (~$0.50 per gallon total taxes), so that doesn't account for it. Europe generally taxes diesel significantly less that gasoline, presumably to push consumers towards more efficient cars, e.g.:

Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded petrol, plus Value Added Tax (19%) on the fuel itself and the Fuel Tax. That adds up to prices of €1.03 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €1.22 per litre (approximately USD 6.28 per US gallon) for unleaded petrol (March 2009).

The diesel market in the US is probably a bit less elastic because most diesel is consumed by commercial trucking, which will buy diesel more-or-less regardless of the price. I truck driver can't really choose to a gasoline tractor like a consumer could cross-shop cars. There is also competition in the refinery for producing various products, and diesel may be less profitable than some other, forcing supplies down and prices up (because demand is relatively inelastic).

In Europe, the base diesel fuel is slightly more expensive than gasoline, but they use the tax structure to make the net price of diesel cheaper. Typical western-European taxes for diesel are 10 - 30 eurocents less per liter than for gasoline. I bet Canada has a similar fuel tax system that favors diesel. Another fun fact, the VAT must also be paid on the excise tax, lovely! So you pay value-added tax on the excise tax that you pay... how an excise tax can be something that adds value, I have no idea, considering the definite of a VAT:

It is called Value Added Tax because it is charged on the Value which a merchant adds to his merchandise i.e. the difference between the selling price and the cost price or cost of materials if manufactured. To achieve this aim, the merchant charges VAT at the appropriate rate on Sales (Output Tax) and pays this to the Customs and Excise after deducting the VAT which he has paid on his purchases (Input Tax). The exception to this rule is that VAT paid on the purchase of cars may not be deducted as Input Tax.

This is an interesting site for European data:
http://www.energy.eu/

I'm not bitter though...