|
|
|
|
|
|
BMW Garage | BMW Meets | Register | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
>
Racing Brake Slotted Rotors F/R + Cool Carbon
|
|
01-06-2012, 07:31 AM | #1 |
Captain
30
Rep 679
Posts |
Racing Brake Slotted Rotors F/R + Cool Carbon
Finaly!
All 4 of my Racing Brake two piece rotors arrived just before Christmas We installed them right after christmas together with a fresh set of cool carbon pads that I had and they were propely bedded. I have been experiencing some abnormal behaviour though. They seem to work fine when driving around the city. Two days ago I drove across Poland and Germany so I finally got a chance to get it up to motorway speeds. This didn't quite work as was expecting. When going above 160 km/h a mere touch of the pedal would cause extreme noise together with very strong vibration. However the behaviour didn't seem consistent. I thought it got a bit better after driving a few hundred kilometers, but then it would happen again. The only time my brakes behaved like this before was after three hard consecutive laps at the nurburgring..(stock rotors/cool carbon pads/all 6 goodridge brake lines) I'm pretty sure I am able to reproduce this now. I went for another drive yesterday. I got out on the motorway and got the car to around 180 km/h. First braking was amazing, great bite, great stopping power (60- 180- 60km/h). I tried repeating the procedure straight away and as i suspected just a touch of the pedal made it feel like the brakes were about to fall apart. At this point I was pretty sure it was temperature related. They only became functional again after at least 3-5 minutes of driving @ 160-180 km/h. I repeated this a couple of times... As I've read a few positive reviews praising the RB/cool carbon combo (didn't Mr 5 run this setup as well?) I was quite suprised with my findings. Please correct me if Im wrong- is it possible that due to the rotors being slotted there is more friction between the rotors and the pads which results in much higer temperatures, which the CC pads cannot handle anymore? Is there a known issue with the CC pads? Could it be something completely different? At the moment driving around the city is possible, but anything above 100km/h is scary to say the least. Please let me know what your thoughts are. Michal
__________________
335 - Öhlins//Swift//M3 front suspension//M3 subframe bushes//Quaife LSD//AR Design Catless//Forge Intercooler//Alcon BBK//Goodridge//AFE//RPI//Fenders - SOLD M4-Mineral Gray/Full Shakir Orange/DCT/M Ceramic/M Adaptive Susp. |
01-06-2012, 11:16 AM | #2 | |
Colonel
37
Rep 2,084
Posts |
Two things about this:
1. Lots of people complain about vibration problems with Cool Carbons. My experience is that using these pads without thorough bedding-in causes deposits, and that very hard braking when the pads are cold also causes deposits. So far I've always been able to resolve the problem by going through Cool Carbon's elaborate bedding-in instructions one more time. 2. Racing Brakes specifically warns about less aggressive street/track pads: Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 01:53 PM | #3 |
Brigadier General
153
Rep 3,730
Posts |
Cool Carbon pads are TRASH! Just about everyone I know who uses them hard has experienced horrible brake judder. I felt like I was going to crash into a wall and die the last time I had them on the track, and I had to pit after 2 or 3 laps (it was so bad my instructor didn't want to go back out with me - we used his car instead). I went back to stock and tossed them in the trash can, waste of $250 for s/t pads, they should be called "street only pads" IMO. I was really excited to ge them after I read Mr 5's review, not sure if he recieved free pads or what, but they don't hold up at the track. Before vendors come on here bashing me and saying "other customers love them", they were bedded in properly on my car and the other car at the track that day. They are OK for easy daily driving, they did reduce dust a little bit over stock, but that's about all they are good for and I still get judder on ocasions. Go get yourself some good Hawk pads, my opinion, anything with the word street in the pads name should be left off the track.
- Hey Gary, CC's elaborate bed process has you turn off ABS. I was told mine were bedded wrong because of this, funny thing is we can't turn our ABS off
__________________
2008 BMW 335i e90 - Sold - Rob Beck Turbos / PROcede V5 / Aquamist HFS-4 / AR Downpipes / AE Exhaust / ER Comp FMIC / ER CP / TiAL BOV / Custom Intake / RPI Scoops / Quaife LSD / Swift-Koni Coilovers / DSS HS / Morr VS8.2 Sig Black / Michelin PSS / P3 Boost Guage / M3 body / M3 steering wheel / Adam's Rotors / Hawk HPS / SS lines /
Last edited by Syndicategt; 01-06-2012 at 01:59 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 02:41 PM | #4 |
Freight Dawg
102
Rep 2,103
Posts |
You can bed your brakes with ABS on, just don't activate it. You can brake plenty hard and not activate ABS. Also, if you disable ABS and manage to lock a wheel, that's basically the same thing as stopping with the brakes applied. No bueno if you're bedding pads.
__________________
--Marcelo
'06 Arctic Metallic 325i | Sport Package | 6MT | Dinan Stage III suspension | Dinan exhaust | 330i manifold swap! Click here! | Active Autowerke tune | 135i Brake Calipers | Deiselboost caliper brackets | E46 M3 front rotors |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 03:13 PM | #5 | |
Brigadier General
153
Rep 3,730
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2008 BMW 335i e90 - Sold - Rob Beck Turbos / PROcede V5 / Aquamist HFS-4 / AR Downpipes / AE Exhaust / ER Comp FMIC / ER CP / TiAL BOV / Custom Intake / RPI Scoops / Quaife LSD / Swift-Koni Coilovers / DSS HS / Morr VS8.2 Sig Black / Michelin PSS / P3 Boost Guage / M3 body / M3 steering wheel / Adam's Rotors / Hawk HPS / SS lines /
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 03:20 PM | #6 |
Colonel
37
Rep 2,084
Posts |
Haha, I don't think Cool Carbons are trash. I've done 21 track days on them and haven't had any problems. If I start getting some vibration and it doesn't go away by the end of my run, I just bed in again, and that always fixes it.
About ABS, you don't need to threshold brake to do the bedding in. You should start with moderate braking and work up to hard braking but not threshold. If you slip up and activate the ABS, just let them cool for ten minutes and start over again. That said, true race pads like Hawk DTC series are much better if you're willing to swap them in and out for every event. But Hawk HPS or HP+ are not better. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 03:29 PM | #7 |
Captain
81
Rep 741
Posts |
I have cool carbon pads and brake performance slotted/drilled rotors.
I miss my OEM brakes. Yeah the dust was ridiculous but at least it didn't feel like I was braking a semi.
__________________
['13 X3 SGM] [20" XXR550's in Black Chrome] [Lamin-X Tails/Fogs] [M-Sport Rear] [FOX Exhaust][H&R Sport Springs][RaceChip Ultimate][BMS N55 Intake]
SOLD-['06 325i TiAg] [19" VMR VB3 HYPERBLACK] [Blacklines] [OEM Xenon Conversion] [35% Tint] [M-Tech Rear] [M-Tech Front] [Black Vinyl Roof] [Slotted/Drilled Rotors, Cool Carbon Pads] [PBX] |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 07:19 PM | #8 |
Captain
30
Rep 679
Posts |
I dont think the cool carbons are as rubbish as some of you say, ive had some very good experience with them, both atthe track and atacking mountain passes- but that was on stock rotors. Either way this should not be happening. What I described above happens after one/two high speed brakings on the motorway. This isnt even close to track conditions..
I need a pad I can live with on a daily basis. Id rather replace my pads more often than switch before every event. Aren't Hawk DTC 60/70 a track specific application?
__________________
335 - Öhlins//Swift//M3 front suspension//M3 subframe bushes//Quaife LSD//AR Design Catless//Forge Intercooler//Alcon BBK//Goodridge//AFE//RPI//Fenders - SOLD M4-Mineral Gray/Full Shakir Orange/DCT/M Ceramic/M Adaptive Susp. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 07:35 PM | #9 | |
Freight Dawg
102
Rep 2,103
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
--Marcelo
'06 Arctic Metallic 325i | Sport Package | 6MT | Dinan Stage III suspension | Dinan exhaust | 330i manifold swap! Click here! | Active Autowerke tune | 135i Brake Calipers | Deiselboost caliper brackets | E46 M3 front rotors |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-06-2012, 08:31 PM | #10 |
Brigadier General
743
Rep 4,427
Posts |
Cool Carbons ruined my first set of c/d rotors! I replaced with new c/d rotors and factory brake pads, way much better!
__________________
ModeCarbon V1 CF lip/PF AG CF SS ext./ARKYM CF Diffuser/OSS AE's/B&G Springs/CF Performance Spoiler/V2 Led Performance SW/Meisterschaft GT exhaust
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-10-2012, 05:01 PM | #11 |
Supreme Allied Commander
3758
Rep 54,070
Posts
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Barbara, AP, Brembo, GIAC, Koni, Ohlins, Performance Friction, www.hpautosport.com
|
It's tough to beat the oem pads if you don't mind the dust. Very few street brake pads out there are actually better in terms of braking performance and noise.
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-11-2012, 12:53 AM | #12 |
Lieutenant
28
Rep 553
Posts |
True, I do swear by my HPS pads though. Much better braking than stock with far less dust.
__________________
[SIZE="2"]335 E92 Space Gray/Coral/Aluminum/6MT
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-17-2012, 01:36 PM | #14 |
Captain
127
Rep 638
Posts |
Hmm... I just installed Cool Carbons, and I really can't tell if they suck yet. I did notice that they are a bit less grabby than the stock pads, though I won't know if this is good or bad until I take it to the track.
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-17-2012, 02:59 PM | #15 |
Lieutenant
28
Rep 553
Posts |
CC's are not track pads, they will fade easily and you will use up most of the material after several sessions.
__________________
[SIZE="2"]335 E92 Space Gray/Coral/Aluminum/6MT
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-17-2012, 03:39 PM | #16 |
Brigadier General
153
Rep 3,730
Posts |
Not to mention they glaze over and can crack easily. Leave them off the track, I found out the hard way and nearly killed myself, it was only light track use and lost braking power on only my 2nd lap(I was not the only CC pad user to have issues that day). Use the CC's for daily driving and swap out with track pads (or OEM).
__________________
2008 BMW 335i e90 - Sold - Rob Beck Turbos / PROcede V5 / Aquamist HFS-4 / AR Downpipes / AE Exhaust / ER Comp FMIC / ER CP / TiAL BOV / Custom Intake / RPI Scoops / Quaife LSD / Swift-Koni Coilovers / DSS HS / Morr VS8.2 Sig Black / Michelin PSS / P3 Boost Guage / M3 body / M3 steering wheel / Adam's Rotors / Hawk HPS / SS lines /
Last edited by Syndicategt; 01-17-2012 at 04:34 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-17-2012, 04:19 PM | #17 | |||||
543
Rep 5,695
Posts |
Quote:
CC does not stipulate turning off the ABS but rather that it is best to avoid activation during the bedding process to avoid localized deposits during the critical portions of the material transfer process. There are some that may prefer the initial bite (grabbyiness) of the OE pads that provide about 20% of full braking capability initially with little/no ability to modulate from 0-20%; We prefer the CC pads which allow a much greater and more linear ability to modulate from 0-20% and 0-100% all the way to ABS. Overall stopping capability has been found by many to be a good increase over OE and with a friction coefficient that increases with temperature. Several have repeatedly criticized CC pads on the forums and we would suggest that any issues real or perceived from those that have actually used the CC pads be resolved through contacting CC or EAS directly to try and resolve any legitimate concerns. Following the OP original complaint about one year back, CC contacted OP and worked to resolve their issue. The complaint was related to some type of rust color residue build up on the rotor after washing the car and allowing car to set for several days. Several high speed stops were required to remove this residue as we recall. Car was driven on good weather days only and put up in between plus stored during winter months. This residue was only on the front rotors and only on the outboard side of the rotors as it was indicated that the inboard side of the rotors never got wet during washing. Photos were provided, which did show some surface irregularities, but also that appeared to show only partial pad contact only on the upper/outer rotor surface. Cool Carbon tried to replicate this complaint by repeating the described events on several different vehicles (335i and E46 M3) and also on uninstalled pad/rotor combinations but with no success. It was suggested to OP to explore the lack of full pad/rotor contact as the calipers had apparently been removed for painting and reinstalled and the car also had been put up or stored for both short and longer term periods. We never eliminated the possibility of the CC pads as a possible cause, but as the OP was not willing to investigate or consider the possibility of contamination on the caliper mounting surfaces during reassembly after painting or that the guide pins could be binding, further investigation by CC was finally placed on hold. EAS and Cool Carbon are willing to revisit this complaint and invites OP to contact directly but after first checking possible causes of poor pad contact as previously requested. Quote:
CC does not recommend cross drilled rotors as they can have a tendency to crack around the drilled holes, holes can fill with friction material and they can warp with heat. We have seen OE C/D rotors warp with less than 10k miles and street driven only and with various pad brands including OE.. Many shops however confuse rotor deposits with warped rotors in order to sell new rotors, when re-bedding or a light cut on a lathe can rectify. Generally OE pads will fade before they will see sufficient heat to cause warpage. The subject of re-bedding to resolve vibration issues has been discussed on many previous occasions and applies to other pad brands as well. We are presently investigating the original RB rotor issue for possible solution. As RB advises against other brands of pads than their own, it is possible that the NVH characteristics of this rotor is such that not all pads may work effectively including some of the track pads they mention. We checked with Mr 5 who indicated that he did have slight vibration during bedding with CC pads on the RB rotor and that this stopped once sufficient heat was added. He originally tried the RB pads but he decided to go the CC route after experiencing the noise characteristics of the RB pads. His experience may differ from that of others however. Neither EAS or CC had any input as to which pads Mr. 5 choose to use and were advised after the fact as to which pads he tested the RB rotors with. Cool Carbon pads are offered as a street performance pads and have never been represented as a dedicated track pad. Many have used them as a light duty track pad, including ourselves and have been most happy with their performance, but again they are not a pure track pad. EAS and Cool Carbon suggest that an alternative be considered if one is looking for the performance of a full track pad and you are willing to change out pads before each event plus are willing to put up with track pad characteristics for street usage. Quote:
Quote:
We would however be most happy to answer any questions and/or to address any issues and request the opportunity to do so. Last edited by EAS; 01-17-2012 at 07:10 PM.. |
|||||
Appreciate
0
|
01-17-2012, 04:38 PM | #18 |
Brigadier General
153
Rep 3,730
Posts |
David,
You guys are a great company and I would not hesitate to purchas from you guys, however, you might want to look into your customers complaints a little closer. You say "several" have repeatedly complained, there might be a reason for that. I understand you are the primary vendor for CC on this forum, but this is a public forum and the "several" people with issues can come on here to speak openly and not just go to the source directly (just like companies like Tire Rack use a customer review section). I gave the pads a fair chance, used them for almost 10,000 miles, I wanted to like them but to my expense they had to go. Maybe I got a faulty set? I'll never know as Waste Management owns them now.
__________________
2008 BMW 335i e90 - Sold - Rob Beck Turbos / PROcede V5 / Aquamist HFS-4 / AR Downpipes / AE Exhaust / ER Comp FMIC / ER CP / TiAL BOV / Custom Intake / RPI Scoops / Quaife LSD / Swift-Koni Coilovers / DSS HS / Morr VS8.2 Sig Black / Michelin PSS / P3 Boost Guage / M3 body / M3 steering wheel / Adam's Rotors / Hawk HPS / SS lines /
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-18-2012, 09:55 AM | #19 |
Brigadier General
783
Rep 3,942
Posts |
I am the one that supplied the photos about the rusting to the rotor issue and the CC guys are the ones that stopped contact with me. They basically by their questions treated me like a dummy and like I don’t know how to do brakes when I have done 500+ over 30 years. As far as looking at the inside of the rotors, that is insulting to me and a waste of my time when the car is not driven in the rain especially on a newer car. Also, I am not the only one with these problems in my area. There is no paint, or contamination on any of the surfaces where the pad ears make contact with the pad carrier and the calipers were painted before the installation of the CC pads anyways (at 400 miles) and the stock pads did not have any issues. The CC pads went on the car at 3100 miles (at the time) and the pins are all fine on a car with 3100 miles. Give me a fxxking brake. The rears also exhibit the same issue, but not to the same degree. To this date the car only has 6700 miles on it. No one should have to worry about getting the pads wet and getting pad impressions / collection of pad material on the rotor even after parking the car after driving it to dry off the rotors. I do not appreciate a vendor telling me that the problem may be due to bad parts on new car. There is no other pad that I have used over the years that exhibits this issue from OEM, Hawk, Axxis, etc. None of my other cars that do get wet in the rain all the time sitting outside and yes I know they get a slight rust layer until driven, but there is no rusting to the rotor / pad impression or the need to re-bed the pads.
I do like the CC pads for the way work over stock for pedal modulation and the slight increase in fade resistance. The correct course of action should have been the offer to refund my money when I return the pads and not assume I am an idiot. Here are some pics of what my problem is. You guys be the judge. Now when I wash the car I do the rims by hand and do not get the pads wet and no problem that way, but I shouldn’t have to do that.
__________________
2021 M2 Comp Sunset Orange |Black with orange Stitching Dakota Leather|Executive Pkg|DCT
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-18-2012, 04:43 PM | #20 | ||
543
Rep 5,695
Posts |
Quote:
Surface cracking is not particularly unusual with track usage on many pads and glazing on any pad brand is often due to too fast of a bedding process that allows the resin to come out of the pad rapidly causing green fade aka glazing. It is possible this has occurred with others but we are not aware. Glazing is easy to eliminate (surface sanding) but the pads must be removed to do so. We believe the forums are a great venue for expressing product experiences but we believe also that it is fair to represent not only the negatives but also the positives for which we have many for the Cool Carbon product line. Please do keep us in mind for any/all future needs for which we may be of assistance! Quote:
It does appear from the photos that there is better contact at the upper portion of the rotor surface so I would not see the request to investigate the possibility of parallelism as unreasonable and also we were flying somewhat blind at this stage and even new BMW’s can have issues. Thanks for the further input and glad you like the modulation and fade improvements. We have found the CC pads almost impossible to induce fade on street usage. Again, there was not intent to treat anyone like a dummy and apologies from both EAS and Cool Carbon. Please keep us in mind for your further requirements and feel free to pm with any further concerns. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-27-2012, 12:32 AM | #21 |
Second Lieutenant
86
Rep 195
Posts |
just swapped out my cool carbons...incredibly disappointed! completed the full brake in process and still got crazy chattering!
__________________
2017 M2|LBB|Manual|Executive Package|Fabspeed SportCat|Dinan S4 Tuner w Big Turbo|Remus Exhaust|Dinan Intake|Dinan Intercooler|Dinan LPFP Upgrade Kit|Ultimate Clutch Pedal|BMS Clutch Stop
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-27-2012, 09:50 AM | #22 |
Private First Class
38
Rep 119
Posts |
With all the back/forth on this thread, it's hard for a guy like me (= mechanical newb) to know which way to turn. I will share that I purchased a full set of CC pads for my 2007 335i last October (replacing original OEM pads at 44K), and now have about 3K miles on them, including two HPDE days (Intermediate group). After following the bed-in procedure (apparently correctly) I have nothing but high praise for them on the street and track, for all the reasons mentioned in others' posts.
I now have a decision to make as my front rotors are at "minimum" depth according to my dealer. After reading all the posts above, it seems to me that finding true braking utopia is about discovering the right combination of pads and rotors (not that all calipers are equal either). With the great results I've had with OEM rotors on CC pads, I'm tempted to fatten my delear's wallet ($600 for two front rotors installed) though I long to have a slotted rotor look (and assumed better track performance). The thing is, I can't say on the track I've found myself thinking "I need better brakes" as I'm probably only driving the car at 8/10 (if that). One day I hope to purchase a BBK and wheels that will show them off, but that $5-10K spend is a long way off as I'm hoping to purchase a dedicated HPDE car (e36 M3). With all that said, any suggestions on my rotor replacement? (apologies if I've jacked this thread, but seems like a relevant question) |
Appreciate
0
|
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|