[Joshboody]

Spool would be more related to volume and pressure drop flow... but I am no fluid dynamics expert.

If you review ETS comprehensive data, you will see that hot side temp between stock and ETS are very similar... this would allude to pressure drop being very similar.

disclaimer: BUT if pressure drop was the same, the hotter IAT would require less air volume and thus theoretically slightly lower hot side temp.

Ask ETS if you can review the data in excel format, or for them to specify the colors on the graph.

http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/E...tercooler.html

EDIT: if you conclude that ETS has similar pressure drop to stock I would NOT consider this a good option based on CPE white paper testing, as their pressure drop is less than stock. Anyway, these are my thoughts and hopefully puts you on the right track. There are better choices depending on the final goal, instead of just "picking one".

[cloud_connected]

Here's a couple logs i have of my car with the ETS 5".
These logs are 2nd to 4th gear pulls using an ATR 93 octane map i've made. The meth is there just to provide a data point to show how good of a job of IAT suppression it does.

This log starts with an IAT of 91F and finishes at 126F or a 35F increase.



The only difference here is that meth is on and it was immediately after the first pull so the starting IATs are 4 degrees higher. Starting IATs are 95F and finish at 99F. So that's a 4F increase.



On meth the ETS 5" works beautifully.

[ETS Michael]

I would go with our 5.0" intercooler.

Check out this guys post for a non bias review.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637380

If you have questions in regards to pressure drop, IAT or anything else don't hesitate to ask me. We assemble and build more intercoolers then anyone on this board for several markets ranging from 100hp applications all the way to big water/air setups for 2000hp+

A couple things to look at when ordering your intercooler.

1.) Fin Density
2.) Surface Area (Exposed Charge Rows)
3.) Radiator Blockage (You don't want to have lower temps with increased coolant temps )

Good luck on your search and if you have any direct questions, don't hesitate to PM me.





If you want to see one of our intercoolers in action, check out this thermal test using a fluke imaging device (done by Garrett and the guys over at RRE)

Thanks!

Michael

[Joshboody]

ok, OP just to show you how a log on Meth means nothing. See my Helix log below through 2 gears similar to above log on Meth. NO temp increase, only reduction. Not easy to choose huh? You can't base anything off what anyone else says or even datalogs... have to decide yourself by reviewing everything!!
BTW: 35deg increase off meth for 2 gears is huge. See link, AMS and Helix (non-Meth on the same graph... kinda hard to see at first)... Helix was very minimal increase with an actuall cooling profile at the first of a run. But more pressure drop to get these results. See AMS on meth

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...92&postcount=8

Ok, I think I'm done posting for now... phew.

[cloud_connected]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

BTW: 35deg increase off meth for 2 gears is huge. See link, AMS and Helix (non-Meth on the same graph... kinda hard to see at first)... Helix was very minimal increase with an actuall cooling profile at the first of a run. But more pressure drop to get these results. See AMS on meth

35 degree increase is a big increase(technically it was through 3 gears, 3K rpms in 2nd to ~6Krpms in 4.) Keep in mind that it was a VERY humid(70% IIRC) and i'm running 4psi more boost than you were on those logs. Not making excuses or anything, just giving as much info as possible.

[drfrink24]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

ok, OP just to show you how a log on Meth means nothing. See my Helix log below through 2 gears similar to above log on Meth. NO temp increase, only reduction. Not easy to choose huh? You can't base anything off what anyone else says or even datalogs... have to decide yourself by reviewing everything!!
BTW: 35deg increase off meth for 2 gears is huge. See link, AMS and Helix (non-Meth on the same graph... kinda hard to see at first)... Helix was very minimal increase with an actuall cooling profile at the first of a run. But more pressure drop to get these results. See AMS on meth

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...92&postcount=8

Ok, I think I'm done posting for now... phew.

I want to make sure I understand this:

Without meth, the above ETS 5" log had a net 35F increase in IATs, with meth, net 5f increase. I believe in most cases, stock would have been 40F+

Your logs with AMS vs. Helix, your AMS went from ~75f to ~88f (13F increase), while your Helix went from 81 to ~81, no net increase. This came at an expense of about 9% higher WGDC. However, your boost onset actually looks a bit better with the helix vs. the AMS, unless i'm confusing the two.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by drfrink24

I want to make sure I understand this:

Without meth, the above ETS 5" log had a net 35F increase in IATs, with meth, net 5f increase. I believe in most cases, stock would have been 40F+

Your logs with AMS vs. Helix, your AMS went from ~75f to ~88f (13F increase), while your Helix went from 81 to ~81, no net increase. This came at an expense of about 9% higher WGDC. However, your boost onset actually looks a bit better with the helix vs. the AMS, unless i'm confusing the two.

Well as cloud said, you have to really decipher the info… I am running less boost and I’m in a very dry climate which effects temp changes greater and also makes ICs look more efficient. But my opinion, is that Helix outperforms everything in IATs, and I “suspect” AMS will yield lowest pressure drop based on my experiences and basically visually seeing the design differences to others.

As far as boost onset, I'm not sure... unfortunately this something I thought about later. It does seem AMS is better in the logs (I'll look more closely later). Butt impression, potentially, but I really don't remember the feel of the AMS now.

[ETS Michael]

I love comparing multiple logs on different vehicles at different elevations like they are apples to apples.

[drfrink24]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Well as cloud said, you have to really decipher the info… I am running less boost and I’m in a very dry climate which effects temp changes greater and also makes ICs look more efficient. But my opinion, is that Helix outperforms everything in IATs, and I “suspect” AMS will yield lowest pressure drop based on my experiences and basically visually seeing the design differences to others.

As far as boost onset, I'm not sure... unfortunately this something I thought about later. It does seem AMS is better in the logs (I'll look more closely later). Butt impression, potentially, but I really don't remember the feel of the AMS now.

Its tough because the timescale is different between the two, and you shifted faster, it appears.

[ar design II]

+1 for ETS. We use them, they work perfectly, fit and finish is always perfect. IMO not a better design or product for the 5".

[sickem]

So if I can summarize the conclusions one can draw from this thread:

Originally Posted by ETS Michael

I would go with our 5.0" intercooler.

Check out this guys post for a non bias review.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637380

If you have questions in regards to pressure drop, IAT or anything else don't hesitate to ask me. We assemble and build more intercoolers then anyone on this board for several markets ranging from 100hp applications all the way to big water/air setups for 2000hp+

A couple things to look at when ordering your intercooler.

1.) Fin Density
2.) Surface Area (Exposed Charge Rows)
3.) Radiator Blockage (You don't want to have lower temps with increased coolant temps )

Good luck on your search and if you have any direct questions, don't hesitate to PM me.





If you want to see one of our intercoolers in action, check out this thermal test using a fluke imaging device (done by Garrett and the guys over at RRE)

Thanks!

Michael

Hey if you've got a wall of cores to show off, then why the hell's my 5" ETS a 3 week delay?!!

[ETS Michael]

You see any 5" cores LOL! We had this huge heat wave and everyone decided to jump on getting a front mount intercooler. I really wasn't expecting it. Next we should be all stocked up and shipping out orders. Tanks are pretty much completed already.

[nailer335]

I apologize for not searching, but perhaps part of the reason why there is so much confusion with respect to FMICs in this community is because people want to claim that their data is empirical- representative of all end user's experiences upon purchasing the product being tested.

I'll be the first to say that I don't know as much about FMICs as many here do...but that being said, I read the threads... and there seems to be many factors of consideration that would make someone in this miserable AZ climate have a different experience than someone would in the northern midwest region of the country, where not only the conditions are completely different, but the vehicles aren't the same either- same FMIC being tested or not. It almost seems like a crap shoot unless you can find someone in your area of the country with a set up that is very similar to yours, whose data would best pertain to your concern.


I recall someone claiming that there are gains to be had (nitehawk?) with an upgraded FMIC while running meth. The reason I haven't installed an upgraded FMIC is because with my cm 3s in each intake snorkel and the cm10 in the elbow... My IATs are such that I find it hard to believe that an upgraded FMIC would further contribute to the degree of worth that vendors charge for these products. Is there data (remotely close to apples to apples...ish) to disprove my suspicion? Granted, I am not confident in my own suspicion- if there are locations that would need
upgraded FMICs the most, AZ, TX and FL would probably all be at the top...

Thanks FMIC gurus.

[drfrink24]

Originally Posted by nailer335

I apologize for not searching, but perhaps part of the reason why there is so much confusion with respect to FMICs in this community is because people want to claim that their data is empirical- representative of all end user's experiences upon purchasing the product being tested.

I'll be the first to say that I don't know as much about FMICs as many here do...but that being said, I read the threads... and there seems to be many factors of consideration that would make someone in this miserable AZ climate have a different experience than someone would in the northern midwest region of the country, where not only the conditions are completely different, but the vehicles aren't the same either- same FMIC being tested or not. It almost seems like a crap shoot unless you can find someone in your area of the country with a set up that is very similar to yours, whose data would best pertain to your concern.


I recall someone claiming that there are gains to be had (nitehawk?) with an upgraded FMIC while running meth. The reason I haven't installed an upgraded FMIC is because with my cm 3s in each intake snorkel and the cm10 in the elbow... My IATs are such that I find it hard to believe that an upgraded FMIC would further contribute to the degree of worth that vendors charge for these products. Is there data (remotely close to apples to apples...ish) to disprove my suspicion? Granted, I am not confident in my own suspicion- if there are locations that would need
upgraded FMICs the most, AZ, TX and FL would probably all be at the top...

Thanks FMIC gurus.

I think there are gains related to off meth performance, starting IATs and run to run recovery. But again, that is why I started this thread; get ideas on the best cores when running meth.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by ETS Michael

You see any 5" cores LOL! We had this huge heat wave and everyone decided to jump on getting a front mount intercooler. I really wasn't expecting it. Next we should be all stocked up and shipping out orders. Tanks are pretty much completed already.

haha, good point. To be honest I didn't look that carefully at what was there! Just wanted to break your stones!!!!

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ETS Michael

I love comparing multiple logs on different vehicles at different elevations like they are apples to apples.

Exactly

Different cars, different conditions (Heat soak, temperature humidity), different boost levels, different mods, etc.

Oh and for the guy who asked there is a benefit to an intercooler with meth, it's just not as large as someone not running meth.

Arbitrary numbers: If the aftermarket intercooler cools the hot side air from 180F down to 110 at the cold side; Then methanol only needs to cool down 110 degree intake air temps down to maybe 95 or so.

If you have a stock intercooler out of efficiency and your hot side is 180F and it can only cool the intake temps down to 150 or; then your methanol would need to cool down 150 degree intake temps so it won't be as efficient.

The argument is probably well can methanol get the intake temps down to 95 from 150? Maybe? but which would be a more efficient way of doing it.

This also falls back to the argument of a CAI. A lot of people say well just let the intercooler cool the air cause that is the most important. <--- This is true partially, but if you feed your turbo's cooler and denser air then they will be spinning less to meet target and therefore your hot side temps will be starting lower, and your intercooler will have to cool down 180 degree temps as opposed to 200 degree temps (again arbitrary numbers). This is just theory and physics.

[drfrink24]

Ordered the AMS FMIC from n54tuning, its on sale for $689, should be here on Friday (tomorrow).

I felt that their end-tank design, 3" inlet/outlet, replacing the factory connectors (eliminating the 1.5" bottleneck), and overall industry reputation made this a good choice. As everyone said, anything is better than stock.

I'll attempt to get some before and after logs in similar conditions, some 2nd and 3rd runs (my car is limited to 135, plus I don't want to goto jail) to post up, perhaps in a different thread.

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Well as cloud said, you have to really decipher the info… I am running less boost and I’m in a very dry climate which effects temp changes greater and also makes ICs look more efficient. But my opinion, is that Helix outperforms everything in IATs, and I “suspect” AMS will yield lowest pressure drop based on my experiences and basically visually seeing the design differences to others.

As far as boost onset, I'm not sure... unfortunately this something I thought about later. It does seem AMS is better in the logs (I'll look more closely later). Butt impression, potentially, but I really don't remember the feel of the AMS now.

Josh,

As we have spoken about in other threads we ran this data through a calculator and of the 10% difference in WGDC 6-7% of that was due to the denser air and the pressure drop related to this. What end users need to understand and realize is the n54 and n55 make more power at lower aits due to submaps that increase timing and calculate load. all the major tuners shiv,terry,Cobb have also said this. WGDC has no effect on ultimate power production... Here's a very easy breakdown of both scenarios and their effects on heatsoak and ultimate power production.

Fmics with better ait suppression will generally...
- have higher power numbers and lower boost levels at the same airflow
- have more repeatable power run to run
- have higher pressure drop mostly due to the denser air charge but partially due to a tighter fin density
-take longer to heatsoak due to increased thermal mass

Fmics with lower wgdc will generally...
- have lower power numbers and higher boost levels at the same airflow
- lose more power run to run as heatsoak occurs
- have lower pressure drop due to a less dense air charge and less dense fin density
-heatsoak more quickly due to less thermal mass

[Joshboody]

While I agree with most of what you said in general. The OP was curious about using meth in conjunction with an IC. All the above still holds true except with meth (and the higher boost targets associated with it) the priority will shift from IAT suppression to flow. Meth will basically reduce the differences in IC efficiency. And the earlier calcs in air mass were (IIRC) closer to about 0.25psi for 10degF... This is very minimal WGDC.

Anyway, unless you are doing sustained high speed runs, my opinion if you want to maximize power on meth is to put more priority on flow instead of efficiency.

BTW: I do love the Helix IC

[drfrink24]

Got the intercooler today, installed on ramps. Fitment was perfect, but was a pretty big PIA to install alone. Initial driving impressions so far have been "wtf did I go all this time without upgrading!?" run to run feels identical, pulls harder up top. I'll log sometime and share.

[spool twice]

For DD use, if you ever log the car, it stays about 5-10degrees above ambient temperature (at least mine does in hot FL summers) so long as you're not stuck in stop-n-go where you'll see IAT's reaching above 140F. In those cases, as soon as the car gets moving, the IAT drops have to 5-10 degrees above ambient temperature. In this type of case, the OEM intercooler does a fine job, at least enough not to warrant a replacement, especially if you have methanol injection. I wish there was a seperate trigger switch a small mist of water/methanol into the charge pipe pre-boosting.

If you do tracking where you'll constantly working the turbo's, then yes, by all means, get a FMIC.

[messi]

So not meaning to thread jack but didn't want to start a new thread and when I searched this thread came up. Debating my next mod. I live on a small island. I do no tracking nor drag racing street or otherwise. Most of my useable power are on short highways. Its 90 degrees all year round. Is an fmic really worth it for me with just a tune? It's all about short quick pulls here so I am not sure that heats soak will be too much of an issue here. Pure weekend warrior here. Lots of traffic.