[gqmd]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The "stock" map isn't a stock ROM image. The check sums might be the same as stock but the ROM image itself isn't stock. And BMW NA is already working on procedure to determine if the DME is flashed or not, regardless of checksums. The only sound thing to do would be to actually flash the DME back to stock. Which takes 30-45min and isn't exactly risk-free or invisible. It took BMW all of 1 day to determine how to catch Dinan flashes at the dealership level. How long do you think it will take them to catch other flashes too?

Shiv

One of my patient's husband works at the NJ BMW technical support office (I believe the main US headquarters is in NJ), that is where they send their field engineers out to dealerships. I happened to mention an "invisible" flash to him and he laughed at the idea of BMW not being able to pick up a flash tune. So take as bluffin' or take it as a warning. Who knows.

I guess it could become an issue if you need major warranty repairs. For regular maintenace, no one will bother you. The dealership wants your business most of the time.

[gqmd]

Originally Posted by discostick

A good friend of mine works for BMW and has told me that BMW engineers are aware that piggyback tuners are reading and deleting the tuner detection codes. He said they changed the software so that these codes will be shadow stored in an area that can not be deleted by dealer level software and only when connecting to the FASTA system. He could not tell me when that update is coming out so beware out there BMW is still on our tails. I asked about flashing and he said BMW was not that concerned, they don't believe anyone can do it yet with their encryption except Dinan and some small European tuners. Piggybacks are very much the biggest thing on the radar there.

Congrats on your first post. Welcome to the Bimmerpost.

[gqmd]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There have been rumors of this, and lets be honest it makes sense from BMW's perspective. This is something BT is on top of and the BT Cable will be worth its weight in gold with ALL piggyback and flash owners if/when BMW moves forward with it.

As always, the first line of defense for tuner invisibility is not to trigger those hidden codes in the first place. The backup to that is having a company dedicated to unlocking BMW's DME with the tools available to access every part of it. Including overwriting BINs and shadow memory directly. That is just some of what BT brings to the table.


Mike

Just wondering...is there anything the Procede cannot read/write that the BT tool can?

I don't have either, so it is not meant to take sides, but to just ask a simple question.

[Ilma]

Both the APR and REVO flashes on my GTI had a stock-like map that came along with the performance flash.

It returned boost levels etc to stock, but it was not the original stock OEM map.....just an emulation.

The only way to get the original OEM map back was to go to the dealer and get the stock software flashed over the tune.

I changed my mind about the APR flash within the 30 day money back period and the vendor said he uninstalled the flash and returned me back to stock, but the car did not feel the same as the OEM stock software.

Of course it was a moot point because I got the REVO software installed that same week.

To add even more doubt, a friend of mine with a flashed GTI, had his car in to the dealer and they had to update his software.

As he sat waiting for his car, the service advisor came and asked him if he had a flash installed, because they were having trouble updating his ECU.

I can't speak for GIAC, but APR and REVO are two of their biggest competitors and also offer the map switching capability to revert to a stock map.

But to this day, I don't believe it's the same as the OEM one.

And also consider this - that if BMW updates their software, it will be a while before the flash tuners can adapt their maps to any changes made by fatherland.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I do think that flashes are somewhat better integrated and smoother in power delivery.....but the piggys have come a long way to closing that gap.

[shifterboy45]

since i dont have any tune _yet_ i dont want to skew the result total

my bad!!!!!

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Both the APR and REVO flashes on my GTI had a stock-like map that came along with the performance flash.

It returned boost levels etc to stock, but it was not the original stock OEM map.....just an emulation.

The only way to get the original OEM map back was to go to the dealer and get the stock software flashed over the tune.

I changed my mind about the APR flash within the 30 day money back period and the vendor said he uninstalled the flash and returned me back to stock, but the car did not feel the same as the OEM stock software.

Of course it was a moot point because I got the REVO software installed that same week.

To add even more doubt, a friend of mine with a flashed GTI, had his car in to the dealer and they had to update his software.

As he sat waiting for his car, the service advisor came and asked him if he had a flash installed, because they were having trouble updating his ECU.

I can't speak for GIAC, but APR and REVO are two of their biggest competitors and also offer the map switching capability to revert to a stock map.

But to this day, I don't believe it's the same as the OEM one.

And also consider this - that if BMW updates their software, it will be a while before the flash tuners can adapt their maps to any changes made by fatherland.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I do think that flashes are somewhat better integrated and smoother in power delivery.....but the piggys have come a long way to closing that gap.

I had an MKV GLI with the APR tune and the only problems that I remember was when people were going back to stock for the dealer visit and the dealer was flashing their ECUs with the newest software. The dealers weren't having problems putting the OEM software on, but once the customer got into their car and tried to revert their ECU back to APR, they couldn't.
So, the customers had to wait for APR to come up with a newer flash for the newer OEM program.
I don't remember GIAC having issues with this.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I'm definitely interested in the GIAC flash because there's so much that they can do that a piggy cannot.
For example, I've heard that the GIAC flash closes the wastegates at idle the same exact way as the pre 29.2 programing, which means that the throttle response will be extremely better than the piggys.
Yes, there are lagfix maps with the piggys but the lag fix maps don't close the wastegates completely, and this is the reason for the wastegate rattle.

LET Motorsport flashes have a similar feature as well. Some cars with post 29.2 programing had excessive wategate rattle at idle, but the LET flash was able to reduce it and fix the turbo lag as well.

[gian335]

thankfully im one of the lucky ones that still running pre-29.2......

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I had an MKV GLI with the APR tune and the only problems that I remember was when people were going back to stock for the dealer visit and the dealer was flashing their ECUs with the newest software. The dealers weren't having problems putting the OEM software on, but once the customer got into their car and tried to revert their ECU back to APR, they couldn't.
So, the customers had to wait for APR to come up with a newer flash for the newer OEM program.

That was my experience also....when my GTI got it's software updated by the dealer, I had to wait for REVO to analyze the changes and revise their flash.

So in effect, I was without tune until a revised map was available.

My friends experience of dealer not being able to flash over his tune is more recent, so maybe things have changed in the VW/Audi arena.

I'm sure they are getting pissed with warranty claims on tuned cars and have not been standing still on this issue. I wonder if they have found a way to detect flashes just as BMW is apparently doing according to rumour.

So far, the piggy's used with code clearing software have been slipping through BMW radar.

By way of comparison, signal interception is a much different methodology than writing and storing code into the ECU.

[335fourdoor]

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

LET Motorsport flashes have a similar feature as well. Some cars with post 29.2 programing had excessive wategate rattle at idle, but the LET flash was able to reduce it and fix the turbo lag as well.

is it still going for $499.00

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by uhcoug2011

+1 I also do not think he realizes nobody getting the flash is going to expect to be sending the ECU in or going to their local flash dealer to revert back to stock because when this flash was originally advertised a big part of it was the fact that we would be able to flash back to a "stock" map on our own.

The dealers will have no issues figuring out the ECU was flashed when they decide to attempt to update your firmware. If your HPFP fails with the flash in, you'd be retarded to not get your ECU reflashed stock (not just 'switching').

As with the local flash dealer, there is only one in Washington state.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by gqmd

Just wondering...is there anything the Procede cannot read/write that the BT tool can?

I don't have either, so it is not meant to take sides, but to just ask a simple question.

The BT system is capable of accessing every part of the DME, including overwriting the entire program. It can even access special memory areas. What makes it so powerful is that it is supported by a team of engineers who know this DME and its programming inside and out. So say they discover BMW is hiding information like tuner codes somewhere in the next progman update, they have the tools and staff to take care of business quickly. It's not so much a hardware thing, but an encryption and know-how thing.

Mike

[chumley]

Not to be Mr. Negative, but if the consensus is that BMW is really ramping up their ability to check for flash tunes, even though they have such small market share (other than Dinan), why wouldn't the obvious and logical next step be for them to go after the piggy-backs by sealing/securing the ecu area?

Really, how hard would it be to install a tamper clip or even a $.02 piece of security tape to determine if the cover was removed? Send each dealer a couple rolls and install them as the cars come in for service. What then? Try and source the BMW security tape? Or do the same with the harnesses or something. It would cost next to nothing and be pretty hard to hide if you've been in there.

If you guys really believe they are paying engineers figure out ways to detect flash tunes, then all of the aftermarket tune's long-term viability for people who want a warranty is in question. In short, they aren't going to ignore the piggy-backs forever if they go after the flash tunes.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by 335fourdoor

is it still going for $499.00

Stage 1 still at that price.

[undecided]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The "stock" map isn't a stock ROM image. The check sums might be the same as stock but the ROM image itself isn't stock. And BMW NA is already working on procedure to determine if the DME is flashed or not, regardless of checksums. The only sound thing to do would be to actually flash the DME back to stock. Which takes 30-45min and isn't exactly risk-free or invisible. It took BMW all of 1 day to determine how to catch Dinan flashes at the dealership level. How long do you think it will take them to catch other flashes too?

Shiv

MSFT detected them, then the hackers changed the firmware to make it "behave" as stock. Eventually, there was nothing MSFT could do to detect the hacked firmwares. MSFT eventually gave up and shipped unflashable DVD-ROM drives.

[kjrulz]

Can we get some comparisons already!!!???

All the flashes/piggybacks pros+cons.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

Can we get some comparisons already!!!???

All the flashes/piggybacks pros+cons.

They're already here. All over the place.

[bubbletea 4 me]

eventually there will be more and more flash available, just like on VW, Audi, Porches. and for many in the VW/Audi crowd, GIAC is not even the best option .. there are so many different choices out there, GIAC is just one of them. the only reason it's even a debate here is cuz we dont have as many options for our 335 yet..

i'll take the wait and see approach until the flash way is more mature and more data is provided/available either from GIAC and/or other tuners.

[discostick]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Hrmm, newly joined (this month and we are only a four days into the month) and from the Northeast, New Jersey perhaps.

No moles here, I am "one of you". I only commented because posters seem to think BMW is hot on flash detection and has given up on detecting piggybacks, and from what I have heard nothing could be further from the truth. I have no doubt that BMW can also stop flashes if they want. People just need to remember that BMW is a big animal and these modification devices are like flies. It takes a lot of flies to accumulate before they swat their tail. It is only now 3 years later that they are coming up with mechanisms to 100% detect piggybacks. Will it take 3 more years for flashes?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by discostick

No moles here, I am "one of you". I only commented because posters seem to think BMW is hot on flash detection and has given up on detecting piggybacks, and from what I have heard nothing could be further from the truth. I have no doubt that BMW can also stop flashes if they want. People just need to remember that BMW is a big animal and these modification devices are like flies. It takes a lot of flies to accumulate before they swat their tail. It is only now 3 years later that they are coming up with mechanisms to 100% detect piggybacks. Will it take 3 more years for flashes?

I'll accept your standpoint.

I just wish others would accept mine; if they are concerned about warranty issues, do not modify. Otherwise accept that the powertrain warranty is gone and sleep better at night.