[Payroll]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

and what do you propose we do with all the unemployment...you gonna pay them all?

No one pays them - they have to find new jobs. No one is suggesting that it won't be painful, but it's necessary and it will help us to emerge as a leaner, more efficient economy that's better prepared for the future of the world. The free market is always troubled by economic switching costs, but this is one that has been allowed to subsist for too long.

[Hedges]

Less competition , higher prices?

[TheSpungos]

Originally Posted by Payroll

No one pays them - they have to find new jobs. No one is suggesting that it won't be painful, but it's necessary and it will help us to emerge as a leaner, more efficient economy that's better prepared for the future of the world. The free market is always troubled by economic switching costs, but this is one that has been allowed to subsist for too long.

Agreed. It will clearly be painful. But the American car industry has been treading water for a long time now. GM needs to be a much smaller company to survive and compete. They've proved lately that they can design, engineer, and build a decent car again. Now they need to focus on that, and the only way to be able to do that is to get smaller, leaner, and better organized.

If it doesn't happen now, we're all going to be bailing them out for years to come.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by 328skidpad

Lets just say that I pay 10-12 per hour to factory workers (engineering technicians) that are just as qualifed as the workers that are paid 30-50 Per hour at GM. My employees work 8 hrs a day and are often 1099 independent consultants and are much more productive than the GM workers that work 8 hr days and play solitare for 1-2 hrs a day.

yeah, that guy who uses a 1 million dollar robot to put wheels and lugs nuts on GM cars gets paid 30-40 Per hour, plus benefits, external equity, pension etc. Go figure?

I dont think BMW will be affected, actually everyone will just go buy a Ford instead.

We can't really talk on this board about free markets and capitalism as our cars are German, where people-benefits supplied by the state are much greater than our own.

Let's keep it in perspective.

I only wish we had universal healthcare so, say, GM and Ford and Google and the local bookstore could focus on their core business instead of paying for health insurance.

[noro]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

and what do you propose we do with all the unemployment...you gonna pay them all?

I do understand what you are saying. But in essence keeping them working, building things that nobody wants seems a bit odd don't you think? I mean let's just pay them and not have them do anything (not being sarcastic). Really, why would you run a factory that consumes earth's resources to build giant metal objects on 4 wheels that sit on dealer parking lots.

[TheSpungos]

Originally Posted by Hedges

Less competition , higher prices?

GM's not going to "go away" completely. They just need to get smaller and more focused. If anything, this will make them more competitive. Think of the money they could put into R&D, quality control, and product development if they didn't have the huge debtload and employment issues they have now.

[BK]

Other than the obvious PR aspects, Chapter 11 is the best thing GM could do. It seems that they'll try to avoid it or they would have already done it -- but a restructure under the shelter of the b/r laws is IMO a very good thing. The problem is that it would send such a negative signal that purely through market panic, it could dramatically negatively impact other markets.

[av8thor]

Originally Posted by lem144

We can't really talk on this board about free markets and capitalism as our cars are German, where people-benefits supplied by the state are much greater than our own.

Let's keep it in perspective.

I only wish we had universal healthcare so, say, GM and Ford and Google and the local bookstore could focus on their core business instead of paying for health insurance.

What in the hell are you talking about? Of course we can talk about it, we live in a (nominally) free market and probably racked up the scratch to buy our German cars by BEING capitalists.

How the German economy works has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

As for the original discussion, new car sales are only a portion of the business that GM does. There are still millions of GM products on the road that are going to continue to need replacement parts.

The sub contractors that are smart will find alternate markets with other car makers for their parts. Those who can't adapt will die and that is the way the system is supposed to work.

[Lucky13]

It's not going to happen so why worry. They will split it into two companies Cadillac, Chevy, GMC and Buick (because of China) the "good" company and Saab, Saturn, Hummer and Pontiac will be auctioned off. Gov't will guarantee warranty work, bond holders take it in the shorts and union get's what they deserve (reality) like the rest of us. Obama is not going to let the union lose all their jobs he's already working on his re-election. Worry about US bankrupcy not GM.

[Mahhvinn]

probably. there could be plenty of reasons why it would and would not.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

It's not going to happen so why worry. They will split it into two companies Cadillac, Chevy, GMC and Buick (because of China) the "good" company and Saab, Saturn, Hummer and Pontiac will be auctioned off. Gov't will guarantee warranty work, bond holders take it in the shorts and union get's what they deserve (reality) like the rest of us. Obama is not going to let the union lose all their jobs he's already working on his re-election. Worry about US bankrupcy not GM.

Can we throw Obama back into the pond where we found him?

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Maybe they'll finally put a proper transmission on the 328.

[BMW335icDDS]

GM sucks. We need to save them only to save some jobs, but honestly all the people who are hired by GM need to take massive pay cuts. Otherwise kill off this company.

[tekieru]

If BMW merged with VW/Audi/Porsche that would be insane. Four major car companies that are technically one = not good.

Secondly, although my knowledge in economics is very limited, GM dying probably isn't a good thing. I agree with the idea of letting GM become smaller and let them try to produce cars that are fuel efficient and reliable but the company cannot die as a whole. That will surely spell "doom" for the US.

[E90 ANdy]

Originally Posted by Pedal2Floor

Let them fail!

Short term it will be painfull -- long term it will be better. Unless they can shed the legacy costs and thinking, nothing can go forward.

If there is money to be made and a void is created, new money will come in to fill that void.

In any free market system, failure is required to clean up the mess. It is creative destruction at work -- just let it happen!

For most modern companies, nothing changes until they have a heart attack or worse!

+1

[ucdbiendog]

I would imagine that the majority of us here on this board that are fortunate enough to drive BMWs are not quite as affected by GM going under as say the thousands of workers that would lose their jobs if it did. So it's very easy for people to say let the free market kill GM when it has little effect on them.

Funny how this went from a "how is BMW affected if GM goes under" thread to "lets discuss the politics and economics of keeping GM alive"

[fwmcb]

yup, no suppliers = no parts.

[pony_trekker]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Ahh, the cornerstone of any capitalist economy.... Except for this one of course. Stupid government.

Yes, maybe we will see a Saab driver or two over here when they can't find replacement throttle bodies.

As far as our economy:

Capitalism when the tickers are green
Socialism when the tickers are red.

Hoard profits.
Share losses.

What a system.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Can we throw Obama back into the pond where we found him?

Yes. Please do.

[Pedal2Floor]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

and what do you propose we do with all the unemployment...you gonna pay them all?

Maybe you should examine a little history

There have been many companies and industries that have gone under, workers will move to new jobs and new industries.

At one time before cars there were over 500 companies making bycycles -- what happened to those workers?

At one time, most of the US worked for the railroads -- what happened to those workers?

New England has plenty of previous ghost towns of brass, copper and textile mills -- what happened to those workers? Some of the brass mills have been turned into malls, some of the copper mills are now doing food processing and many of the textile mills are now converted to low cost office space for small businesses especially in the high-tech industries.

There is currently a very high demand for people who can do CNC machining -- many of these people who are displaced could learn and already have many of the skills needed for CNC. Same goes for good auto mechanics, transmission specialists etc. Jay Leno even has a special scholarship fund for these jobs and there is a major deficit in skills in these areas as well as a high demand.

People will move to other industries and jobs -- the only things that stops anyone is a) stubborness to change b) inflexibility to move.

If you have a brain and a will -- nothing will stop you from getting a different job.

We owe these people oppurtunity in terms of education for job retraining and yes some unemployment in the short term -- long term it is up to them. I fail to feel totally bad for many these people who where making 100K/yr as reported by the Detroit News or who sat in Job Pools making 70% of their pay doing nothing but playing poker and now many of those same people are getting 60% of their pay on unemployment. I have no empathy and sympathy for the financially stupid.

Only unions believe you should be guaranteed the exact same job at the same company for life.

As a country, we will all take a hit but it is necessary to flush the system and restart -- prolonging what would have occured naturally serves nobody and will make it worse for everyone. This is problem that has been buliding for years -- sucks is the timing but it was ineveitable and not a surprise.

[noro]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Can we throw Obama back into the pond where we found him?

Are you feeling lonely in your little pond?

[darkcloud]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Can we throw Obama back into the pond where we found him?

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Yes. Please do.

You really aren't hearing much from the people who voted for him anymore either.

Sure there are the people who understand and are just keeping their mouths shut, but where are all these crazy smart 18-25 y/o's and african americans that voted for Obama simply because he was the popular or black?

BTW... Anyone watching the current season of Real World on MTV? It's good laughs. One of the kids was in the military and he was soooo pumped about not going to be called backto Iraq if Obama was elected and he was going to pull troops. Well Obama got elected, he got his letter to be reinstated to the army and Obama is sending even more troops over. Ain't that a bitch haha