[AlanYoro35i]

Haha...i litted up fire!! so did anyone actually sign the petition to hope for that guy to live with 50 pounds a week and see what it feels like?

[fulcrum]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

It's a pity it's closed and Fulcrum had the last say in the matter, as they have clearly never had to claim genuine benefit from the Government of the day.

What is wrong with me having the last say! And I have claimed benefits before both for me personally and others. Actually, I must have helped thousands to do so now!!!!!

Having an opinion is one thing and we are all entitled to have one and express it. Dealing with facts and the evidence is another.

[MEGA]

I don't know why his thread was closed but to see the same comment saying "make him do it" is pretty pitiful.

There were some good, well measured arguments in the topic. To come up against this kind of "lulz, that wud b well funnie" mentality to politics from certain members, especially when they are quite affluent people - is terrifying. An indictment of the issues this country has.

F*ck sake.

Dave

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by fulcrum

What is wrong with me having the last say! And I have claimed benefits before both for me personally and others. Actually, I must have helped thousands to do so now!!!!!

Really?. Then how do you explain someone with acute depression taking a hand written letter from their GP and a specialist. to a DWP "Doctor" only too be told they're not under depression and fit for work.

After all you said.

The individuals GP's view is sought.

[RCUK]

Going to the benefits debate... transpires that unwashed kid killing twat currently in the news was on £68k benefits!

Thats £100k salary had he worked - and put him in the top 2% of earners in the country.

He is the poster child with all thats wrong in this country.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

The opposite also applies to the last few posts. I'm too young to retire but have been looking for a job in my line of work for several years now and even though I have applied for jobs going down to half of what I used to earn, I still get no takers.

The problems are
1 In Scotland where the construction industry has half collapsed.
2 Ageism by companies (or at least the middle manager types who do the interviewing)
3 Fear of said middle managers that I would take their jobs from them because I am more qualified and more experienced than they are.
4 If it's a lower level job then they assume that I wouldn't find it a challenge, or I would be bored, or as soon as the market picked up (aye, right) I would leave for a job more suitable to my experience.
5 Now that several years have passed since I last had a full time job they assume I would not be up to speed (yeh, right, the previous 36 years don't count!?)

SO instead I sit using up the remaining life savings, the State doesn't pay me one single penny (despite my previous 5 figure tax & NI annual contributions) and end up with a total of 7 interviews out of 400 applications - oh, and I'm not an average or sub-par surveyor, and my CV shows some work that demonstrates that.

Yet I get nowhere.. (and I don't really know why I've posted this - something in some posts must have sparked it off.)

Funnily enough, if you look at statistics ageism shows that it is the young being discriminated against and the older age groups are far less unemployed. This is true in the UK and America. Older people have been favoured over the young by far.

[fulcrum]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

Really?. Then how do you explain someone with acute depression taking a hand written letter from their GP and a specialist. to a DWP "Doctor" only too be told they're not under depression and fit for work.

After all you said.

I cant obviously. Especially, when I do not have the details of the case. It would not be fair or right to generalise either or comment on a case I do not know nothing about.

I guess that is why there is an appeal system in what is by no means a perfect system.

On the facts though - on those cases where the appeal is won only 0.3% were due to a mistake by ATOS.

And I am no supporter of ATOS!

The media focus on this issue is outrageous on both sides of the debate. Worse than usual and very polarised - as this thread is becoming. It is disgusting to tarnish all benefit recipients as shirkers.

There are of course desperate and vulnerable people who need support - some have moved me to tears with their courage in adversity.

However, there are too many people who think of a benefits as an entitlement and a way of life. I know of families where no one has ever worked, great grandparents, grandparents, parents children. How many great grand parents do you know around 50!! I mentored one young guy who wanted to do well in his GCSEs etc and go onto Uni but his parents were actively trying to stop him because they worried about the impact on their benefits! What sort of society condones that.

No doubt we could all recount cases at either end of the extremes. The fact is that both are wrong and we should be ashamed that we let this happen. The current system is unaffordable. If was working correctly those who can work should be in work - any work - or actively looking for work. Those who cannot work should be BETTER supported. If the system was right then better support for the genuine would be affordable. And by better I do not just mean given more money and left to it!!!

If you think this is bad wait until 2016 when the public wake up to the impact of the Pension reform and pensioner benefits for the more wealthy (but not that wealthy) are cut and cut hard.

The disability lobby is powerful but is no match for the grey vote.

The fact is that we all vote and support cuts for others but when we are effected - by heck do we moan me very much included.

[dobbo99]

Originally Posted by Palmnuts

[*]and is it just me or is the c) situation actually getting worse and we're seeing a decline in capability in general?[/LIST]

I think its more a decline in personal responsibility and self esteem.
People are (or could be) capable, but just simply cant be arsed as there are easier ways to 'live' than to go out, work hard and earn a decent living.

We all know that's not the welfare system, the actual meaningful and competent welfare system seems to have been entirely lost.
I'm happy to contribute to a welfare system that actually works, and benefits those that are in need (I say happy, I have no choice really!).

Its beyond my way of thinking that anyone can think that its acceptable to have another child (to add their collection) in order to increase there weekly payout or get a larger council house.
Im just not programmed to think that way. By my parents or society.

I would imagine that there are a good number of people incapable of working for whatever genuine reason, and they utilise the benefit system for its intended purpose, and those same people would put others to shame with there application and effort were they able to work or be given the opportunity.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by fulcrum

On the facts though - on those cases where the appeal is won only 0.3% were due to a mistake by ATOS.

Got to wonder just how many appeal.

My experiences are the polar opposite. Good hard working people who find themselves in need of help, get told to "do one" and those who have no intention or working, get all that's available. And once they qualify for one type of benefit, get a lot more by default.

[Sportplus]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

Really?. Then how do you explain someone with acute depression taking a hand written letter from their GP and a specialist. to a DWP "Doctor" only too be told they're not under depression and fit for work.

After all you said.

This is what pisses me off. They make it way too easy to have an excuse not to work.

I'm depressed because my boss shouted at me for being crap at my job.
I’m depressed because my pet died.
I'm depressed because my big toe is sore.

Were folk depressed in the last century?? Probably but they carried on
because they had no option.

The UK is full of free loaders quite happy to sit back and sponge off the government. Why should I have to pay a fortune in tax to provide a nice comfy home for these clowns.

As I've said before, I'm more than happy to pay tax to provide for ones in real need.

[fulcrum]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

Got to wonder just how many appeal.

My experiences are the polar opposite. Good hard working people who find themselves in need of help, get told to "do one" and those who have no intention or working, get all that's available. And once they qualify for one type of benefit, get a lot more by default.

Almost everyone at the beginning of the conversion from Incapacity benefit to ESA because you remained on the higher rate until your appeal was heard. That has now changed so appeals are reducing.

Latest stats here

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/wor..._ibr_jan13.xls

So for the quarter ending May 12 out of 142600 assessments: 41900 were found fit for work. 4300 stopped claiming before their assessment. 7800 are still in progress i.e. appealed.Still high and causing issues for HMCS.

I am afraid your last comment is often true. Those who know how to play the system often do very well which is this debate I think.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Sportplus

This is what pisses me off. They make it way too easy to have an excuse not to work.

I'm depressed because my boss shouted at me for being crap at my job.
I’m depressed because my pet died.
I'm depressed because my big toe is sore.

Were folk depressed in the last century?? Probably but they carried on
because they had no option.

The UK is full of free loaders quite happy to sit back and sponge off the government. Why should I have to pay a fortune in tax to provide a nice comfy home for these clowns.

As I've said before, I'm more than happy to pay tax to provide for ones in real need.

You're making the classic mistake of confusing real depression with being "fed up" I used to see them as one and the same thing. But having a Mate who has real depression. I now know they are very different.

[Sportplus]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

You're making the classic mistake of confusing real depression with being "fed up" I used to see them as one and the same thing. But having a Mate who has real depression. I now know they are very different.

How do you tell them apart? My ex partner fell to bits when her dad died. its hard to watch. Its still no excuse not to work, or i'm I just a heartless b*****??

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Sportplus

How do you tell them apart? My ex partner fell to bits when her dad died. its hard to watch. Its still no excuse not to work, or i'm I just a heartless b*****??

Did she manage to get out of bed each day?

Did she still wash herself?

Did she leave basic jobs half done around the house?

Did the curtains stay shut all day?

Did she have to let her job go?

Did absolutely nothing interest her?

I could go on, but it gets grizzly

[Sportplus]

Originally Posted by fulcrum

I am afraid your last comment is often true. Those who know how to play the system often do very well which is this debate I think.

This is the real issue, How do you stop it?? We're relying on the population being honest

[Sportplus]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

Did she manage to get out of bed each day?

Did she still wash herself?

Did she leave basic jobs half done around the house?

Did the curtains stay shut all day?

Did absolutely nothing interest her?

I could go on, but it gets grizzly

I did see all of that with my partner and I managed to get her to see someone. I also kicked her out of bed and told her to go to work after a month of watching her cry her eyes out.

3 of them would sit and stare at each other for hours. What use is that?? get of your arse and do something. YOUR STILL ALIVE get on and live your life.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Sportplus

I did see all of that with my partner and I managed to get her to see someone. I also kicked her out of bed and told her to go to work after a month of watching her cry her eyes out.

3 of them would sit and stare at each other for hours. What use is that?? get of your arse and do something. YOUR STILL ALIVE get on and live your life.

Good for you. but you might have helped or helped store up problems for later.

I fully realise everyone is different. For some, telling them to "get a grip" is the worst thing you can say.

Depression from a lost loved one is also different from depression from them thinking they are shite and worthless.

[Sportplus]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

Good for you. but you might have helped or helped store up problems for later.

I fully realise everyone is different. For some, telling them to "get a grip" is the worst thing you can say.

Depression from a lost loved one is also different from depression from them thinking they are shite and worthless.

Very true!! (I did pay for her to see a specialist in grief counselling)

At the end of the day, If someone needs help of any kind it should be there no matter what. It's trying to come up with a compromise so the UK isn't going down the drain trying to support an ever increasing benefit bill.

[JLR1969]

40,000 families in the UK with 5 or more children claiming benefit. It's a fucking disgrace. If you can't afford kids don't have them.

[RagingKileak]

This is a nightmare thread for a close community like this because it is absolutely polarised. So many people are right here that even I (wild and outrageous as my views might be) can't agree with any of the polar views.

Here are a few bullets which sum up what I think, many of which have been stated by others already:

1 - There is no doubt that people want more money for less work. Both a colleague of mine at work and my missus employ people at the low end (£15-20k p/a) of the job market. They work in very different industries. Both have complained to me recently about the fact that they can't hire good people at this level - they get 10 (for arguments sake) applications for every role and both say that about 0.5 people are actually suitable.

Now, me and bloke at work doing the complaining both used to work on the service desk together (I hired him 7 years ago) and we used to handle up to 150 technical calls a day between the two of us, when we were meant to handle 60 at most. I design the service desks which he delivers and I do it (broadly speaking) based on each analyst handling 30 technical calls a day. He is now telling me his guys can't handle 30 a day each because they can't be arsed. Guess what... Our prices go up and we don't win business if I have to dimension things differently. How can the business grow? It's a simple example, but it shows how the wrong attitude of someone earning £15k can lead to the loss of contracts worth (sometimes) in excess of £1m per annum.

The same bloke at work has had people go off sick with depression because they were taking back to back calls or similar. Now that is absolute bollocks - I say sack the fuckers, but apparently HR won't allow it, so we end up with people who are GENUINELY a waste of space sat in jobs that they can't do anyway. Even when we get rid of them, we get people walking up to us asking if we can push the salary up because "it's not worth me bothering for £20k mate" or similar.

All the above is true. It's fucking madness.

2 - People on benefits are absolutely not universally scroungers, nor are they all saints/martyrs who should be elevated on golden thrones of taxpayers money. A huge number of people who wouldn't normally be associated with 'being on benefits' now are because of whatever has happened to their industry or to the economy or because of whatever other excuse their £200k P/A CEO needed to hit his bonus - or because of a personal issue which might have happened regardless of the state of things. Are these people scroungers or are they exactly the kind of person which the benefits system is supposed to assist?

I say, these are the people who should benefit from benefits (ahem) however meagre they may be. The point of them is that they should be there to tide you over between jobs. They should be there to supplement the money that we have (or should have) each saved away for just such an eventuality. They are meant to MINIMISE the damage of being unemployed and not to REPLACE EMPLOYMENT.

On the issue of the long term sick, depressed, disabled or genuinely unlucky - well for me I have no issue with these people. As a demographic the number of people who are genuinely in this category is low, and where the opinion swings wildly against 'benefit scroungers' is when you get people like these Philpott scumbags who unfairly occupy this category when actually, they are just scum. To reiterate - the long term unemployed are NOT ALL scum; they are a mixture of temporarily sick, disabled and unlucky people with an unfortunately high number of fucking scumbags making the total percentage high enough to be worthy of discussion. It is our duty (even the most conservative of us cannot argue that Britain leads the way globally on social welfare) to protect and assist those who cannot support themselves, if they deserve it. It is the scumbags abusing this position who are fucking this up for everyone.

3 - In relation to the above point, the current technologies, processes, people, companies and other administrative overheads which manage benefits need to be discussed in order to assist in the proper categorisation of the long term unemployed.

I'm saddened to read about the personal experience(s) of people I know and have met like Alan, Del and Ian in this thread because I don't believe they would knowingly become involved in anything which even approached a benefit scam on the scale of the Philpott's and their like. It sounds to me like the system has failed for them in some way and it shouldn't have - but I don't believe that it is DESIGNED to punish or penalise the genuinely long term unemployed, it's just that sometimes things don't work as they should. For what it's worth, that makes me sad - because I want my tax money to help genuinely troubled people in that kind of position.

On the other hand I don't often read stories about benefit frauds being caught, or punished, or imprisoned, or kicked out of their homes. You tend to see the political statements like 'I will kick cheats out of council houses' or similar - but you never see it happen. Does that mean it doesn't happen? No, it does - trust me. But most of us here are not in the right demographic to see it happen. On Facebook RIGHT NOW there will be several rants between people on council estates ranting about the injustice of them being kicked out of their homes - in reality though, they broke the rules, took the piss and the government took action. It's not news though. It's not sensationalist enough.

4 - In summary then, I would suggest everyone calm down a little bit and try to see things in a more balanced way. Balance is good for your soul and trust me, I know what extreme anger does to the wrinkles on your forehead

People like the Philpott's will always exist and we just have to hope and expect that they will be caught in the net sooner or later. We have to keep pushing for that net to be tightened and vote accordingly or remember to report benefit scroungers, criminals and other ne'er do wells. We need to stop turning a blind eye to this kind of bollocks (back to point 1 - I think someone mentioned personal responsibility earlier too) and take back our communities from people like this. If it wasn't seen as OK by 9/10 people then people wouldn't do it - they would be ostracised into submission.

We also need to take a moment to think about people who might find themselves in trouble. You'd be surprised how quickly savngs vanish with even a single breadwinner out of work. You'd also be surprised how quickly the morale of a person out of work will fall and how the cycle of failure becomes more viscious the longer it goes on - returning to employment therefore becomes tougher and tougher. This could happen to you or someone you know. It's happened to an ex partner of mine that many of you know and at present, Jenny is suffering from a debilitating eye infection which may leave her blind. she is now so worried about losing her job that I think it is affecting her healing - if she loses her job and her sight, would you see her as a benefit scrounger just because I still have a job?

Trust me guys, I will NEVER make excuses for scum like the Philpotts. I have an interest in history and some of the methods of torture used in the middle ages would be too good for them, but rather than penalise all benefit claimaints, I would urge all good people to band together to support each other and to push out those who don't deserve it - a few years of that and they'll be back in work before you know it. Granted, I know it won't happen again in our lifetime.

Finally, as for a political view, there is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that the current crop of fucking layabouts was dragged (probably not kicking and screaming because that requires effort) from Thatcher's tory womb about 30-40 years ago and then immediately slapped upon the fat, debt swollen tit of a labour government who were only too happy to nurture them through their teens into the crop of scumbags we now see claiming that we owe them a living. Who's fault is it then? Fuck knows. Who can fix it? Well I think the Tory's are the only ones with a plan right now, even if it's not a great one.... Labour have no fucking chance of fixing this country up at the moment... Not that it will stop them coming in at the next election. That is the benefit of giving people what they want and not what they need of course. This Tory government was destined to fail, that's why they are doing what they can while they can, and that takes courage which I honestly didn't think Mr Cameron had.

Phew.

Matt

[SteveC]

Feel better with all that off your chest?

Good to have a little rant sometimes

[RagingKileak]

There wasn't actually much RANTING in there.... Gets a bit ranty at the end though. I get carried away!

Matt