[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I disagree with first point. First, I maintain that Xdrive offers no real advantages in wet.

Well, see my post a few above. I maintain in real world conditions, you are wrong.

As far as the MPG issue, AWD will definitely be a little worse, but once again this argument is a bit bogus. I think in EPA testing, it's about 1mpg, but they use rounded numbers, and the difference could be as little as .5mpg. In real world conditions, .5mpg is nothing -- that's about the difference in mpg between going 70 and 73. If mpg is that big of a concern, I certainly hope you aren't driving a 335, where the real world difference is likely greater than 1mpg vs a 328.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Well, see my post a few above. I maintain in real world conditions, you are wrong.

As far as the MPG issue, AWD will definitely be a little worse, but once again this argument is a bit bogus. I think in EPA testing, it's about 1mpg, but they use rounded numbers, and the difference could be as little as .5mpg. In real world conditions, .5mpg is nothing -- that's about the difference in mpg between going 70 and 73. If mpg is that big of a concern, I certainly hope you aren't driving a 335, where the real world difference is likely greater than 1mpg vs a 328.

I agree with the poster whom you say is wrong. Let's face it, AWD is better for many people because it's about how they feel about their purchase, not their driving. It makes them feel better and more secure especially when the weather is bad. They seem to be of the thinking how could anybody not get AWD when it's only 2k. That's very nice.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Well, see my post a few above. I maintain in real world conditions, you are wrong.

As far as the MPG issue, AWD will definitely be a little worse, but once again this argument is a bit bogus. I think in EPA testing, it's about 1mpg, but they use rounded numbers, and the difference could be as little as .5mpg. In real world conditions, .5mpg is nothing -- that's about the difference in mpg between going 70 and 73. If mpg is that big of a concern, I certainly hope you aren't driving a 335, where the real world difference is likely greater than 1mpg vs a 328.

In EPA testing, the difference in a 328 rwd vs awd for Highway MPG is 3 mpg (28 vs 25). Combining city and highway, it's probably slightly higher. 4-5mpg difference per tank will be noticeable. Again, i'm not knocking awd at all. My other vehicle has 4wd and the benefits are great. But i'm also enough of a realist to know that the differences in mpg between rwd and awd will be noticeable.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I'm not going to argue about what happens at the track, because I personally a bit more focused about what happens on the road under real world conditions (and I suspect the OP is as well). So, what happens at the track or in GT races is not of a whole lot of interst to me.

I will contend that traction under most circumstances is largely about tires. What AWD does is send power to a tire that has traction. That is a huge help in conditions where you are trying to climb up a hill under conditions of low traction (like climbing up a long snow covered driveway).

In rain, the traction issue is about minimizing the water that is in-between your tire and the road, and I don't believe AWD add much if anything in that circumstances. The traction issue in that circumstance is entirely about your tire.

The Audi system is a whole different ball of wax. Because it is a torque vectoring system (like the system on the X6 and on most Audis) it has a wider impact on handling.

None of that detracts from your original point, with which I totally agree. It is silly to compare AWD with all seasons to RWD with snow tires. Like apples to oranges....

What happens on a track is a direct reflection of how a car actually performs when you need - like emergency situations. You are correct that contact patch is the issue and tires play a huge part in the rain. What helps with AWD is being able to shift that power where traction exists, maximizing the potential control of the car.

Audi's systems are not a different ball of wax. Torque vectoring is not standard with quattro. In fact it was just introduced with the new S4. Audi's run open diffs front and rear on most of their cars.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by John 070

I agree with the poster whom you say is wrong.

Did you actually read my post above? I have real world proof he is wrong (or as close to real world proof as possible). A corner I drive virtually every single day, with no AWD/RWD difference dry, but oversteer every time in the wet, even when I take it easy. I suppose I could take it at 5mph, but I'm not sure if the people behind me would be too happy. It's trivial to tell the difference between AWD and RWD in the wet. I'm not trading in my convertible just because I get some oversteer occasionally, but I'm also not going to blow smoke up someone's a** and say snow is the only time you'll ever notice AWD.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

In EPA testing, the difference in a 328 rwd vs awd for Highway MPG is 3 mpg (28 vs 25).

I'm not sure why the 328 has such a difference (maybe different gearing), but with a 335i/xi auto, the difference is 17/25 xi, 17/26 i. ZERO difference city, 1mpg difference highway. At least for us 335xi drivers, I'd be shocked if the difference is more than 1mpg real world. The situation might be a little different with the 328, but truth be told, with only 230hp, RWD would be more tempting. At 300+hp, not so much, at least not in a daily driver.

[noro]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Are you even for real? Do you know how full of crap you come across (at least to us AWD "fanboys"), when I see that statement in your post, and look right below it and see those two cars in your sig. Most with the least -- why aren't you driving a RWD 128, if you want to talk about most with the least.

If my point isn't immediately obvious, let me break it down for you. There are a lot of components of your 335i that aren't really necessary -- hello, 18"/19" wheels, power seats, runflats, etc. Deciding to just single out AWD as the one unnecessary component is a silly. Hell, most people would say twin turbos are unnecessary, and no BMW should have forced injection. Those turbos and assocatied hardware add an awful lot of weight to the front end.

Go now, trade in your 335 on a MINI Cooper, then come back and start preaching about most with the least.

Sorry dude, you've got some weak arguments. The E30 M3 is the epiphany of less is more, in fact I don't think it will get ever repeated to this extent by BMW. As far as the 335i goes it too for a given performance level I was after is the most efficient package. All I have for options are sports seats/wheels, heated seats and sirius. The only 2 mods I have are Jb1 (most conservative, again less is more) and the car is debadged so that every time some moron goes "it's an xi right" I go "no, I know I am dumb"

[cgpublic]

For those of us in the Northeast, who among us is taking their BMW out on the road? And who is leaving the BMW in the garage?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

What happens on a track is a direct reflection of how a car actually performs when you need - like emergency situations. You are correct that contact patch is the issue and tires play a huge part in the rain. What helps with AWD is being able to shift that power where traction exists, maximizing the potential control of the car.

Audi's systems are not a different ball of wax. Torque vectoring is not standard with quattro. In fact it was just introduced with the new S4. Audi's run open diffs front and rear on most of their cars.

Post is an example of why this board rocks. I learn something everytime I come by...

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

I'm not sure why the 328 has such a difference (maybe different gearing), but with a 335i/xi auto, the difference is 17/25 xi, 17/26 i. ZERO difference city, 1mpg difference highway. At least for us 335xi drivers, I'd be shocked if the difference is more than 1mpg real world. The situation might be a little different with the 328, but truth be told, with only 230hp, RWD would be more tempting. At 300+hp, not so much, at least not in a daily driver.

It is funny how badly even the new EPA MPG ratings capture real world performance.

MY RWD E91 hasn't been getting great MPG. I shudder to think what it would be with AWD.

[jopa489]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

For those of us in the Northeast, who among us is taking their BMW out on the road? And who is leaving the BMW in the garage?

It's my daily driver, not the garage queen.

[DJKhan85]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

For those of us in the Northeast, who among us is taking their BMW out on the road? And who is leaving the BMW in the garage?

Every day here. It's not even garaged. Just a car.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by jopa489

It's my daily driver, not the garage queen.

x2

[blacksail337]

i average 23 to 25 mpg

and snow tires are far from mandatory imo, i was out last night lowered on h&r race springs, with nitto 555's in about 6 inches and did outstanding

main thing i love about it is launching on dry pavement/at the drag strip!

xdrive + steptronic = basically perfect idiot proof launches every time

[Schmed]

Originally Posted by blacksail337

and snow tires are far from mandatory imo, i was out last night lowered on h&r race springs, with nitto 555's in about 6 inches and did outstanding

God help me... if somebody rear-ends me and they are driving on Nitto 555s in the snow....

Originally Posted by blacksail337

xdrive + steptronic = basically perfect idiot proof launches every time

You said it.

[blacksail337]

haha this is the first real snow we've had where i live in 12 years, so i didn't exactly purchase them with that kinda driving in mind, BUT they got the job done for a short trip home.

need for snow tires obviously very dependent on where you live, but x-drive gets a thumbs up in my book

now as for the last part i can't tell if you actually agree with me, or are calling me an idiot

[Schmed]

I'm in agreement with the earlier post where a lot of people buy AWD and don't think they need to put snow tires on the car. When one of those people hit me, I'll be PO'd.

Nahhh - not calling you an idiot - just joking around. Nothing wrong with Auto or AWD or whatever. Let's face it - we all ponied up the big $$$ for the BMW because we appreciate the handling/looks/performance/features/etc. No point in arguing the merits of auto/6MT vs. AWD/RWD any longer. Just drive and be happy!

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by John 070

I agree with the poster whom you say is wrong. Let's face it, AWD is better for many people because it's about how they feel about their purchase, not their driving. It makes them feel better and more secure especially when the weather is bad. They seem to be of the thinking how could anybody not get AWD when it's only 2k. That's very nice.

The same argument could be made for many people who purchase cars which can not be driven to half of their capability even when driven 15 mph greater than the highest posted speed limit allowable in the United States. Let's face it, there are people who purchase M3s and drive majority of their miles on city streets.

And it's only 25K more than a 328.

What an epic failure of an argument.

[Fzara2000]

So let's see: 335xi + sport pkg, & snow tires

or

335i + sport pkg +snow tires


I think the choice is pretty obvious, especially since sport pkg on the E90 is required, and you wouldn't want to be caught found driving on summer tires

[philsteroni]

I never thought I would see douzens of people argue about 1-3 mpg on a forum where the average price of a car is 60 000$(+mods)...

[Amdahl]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

Now, if you want to drive 75mph in the snow, then by all means, get the xdrive.

Maybe this (75mph) was an exaggeration, but for those drivers who don't know that:

I have an xi with snow tires, and I wouldn't recommend driving 75mph in the snow. 40mph is probably your top speed when you are on straight areas with no traffic. Just because your car is stable in the snow, doesn't mean you can stop fast enough. Everyone's mileage here will vary. But you don't know if you're too fast until you have to stop.

In Cali, the posted speed limit in chain control areas is 25mph.

Originally Posted by greg007

OK but if you're on a budget - will u get better handling with x-drive and no snow tires or snow tires and no x-drive? The latter I suspect?

Tires are more important. But you still need 4 of them on RWD.

[Crisp]

My 335i wasn't going anywhere with summer tires in the snow.
My 535xi with summer tires could get around just fine unless it got stuck in a ditch/hill with more than 8" of unplowed snow.
However, I spun out with my 335 doing 5-8mph with traction ON, while the 535xi, although traction control was going crazy, by braking some wheels, and managing the power to others, it kept the car "under control" in turns.
The 335i could not do this since it could not distribute the power to the front wheels, or even to one rear wheel completely (lack of LSD).

I now have snow tires on the 535, and thus far, it has been unstoppable.

I didn't just get the xi for the snow though.
I also got it for the rain, and since I live in NYC, I got it to have traction 100% of the time in uneaven/ rough surfaces around the city, where as the traction control would go off numerous times in the rain and dry in the city with the 335 (also due to the very stiff suspension, while my 535 does not have sport suspension).

Again, winter tires are a must in either car.
You can get by with all season tires though, unless you have constat snow on the ground and don't live in the city.