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Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?
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07-07-2009, 06:53 PM | #89 | |
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Just giving credit where credit is due I guess. It is a neat idea, but manipulating sensor data to get the desired result is still piggybacking; 'fooling' the DME as to what is really going on. |
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07-07-2009, 06:57 PM | #90 | |
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07-07-2009, 07:09 PM | #91 |
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Why argue with results though? Isn't that what i really all comes down to? Shiv and Terry both provide RESULTS with there products, so what difference does it make it if 'fools' the DME, or reads 100's of inputs from the sensors and other do dads on the car, it provides results and that's all most of care about... I'm happy with the PROcede and I am still testing it out, but I am happy with the results... People who buy the JB3 are more or less happy with the results they get as well... SO they (shiv and terry) don't offer a Flash, so what? Be happy with what you have and the results it provides, or don't be happy and keep posting meaningless garbage... These posts are starting to sound like another 'hater' called NetVader... Any relation?
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07-07-2009, 07:27 PM | #92 | |
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I just wanted to know why some companies are creating flash tunes whereas some companies are offering piggyback tunes? More specifically, I wanted to know why Shiv or Terry didn't start off by creating flash tunes. You are not adding anything to this thread but your pointless chatter. |
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07-07-2009, 07:34 PM | #93 |
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I was trying to start a civilized discussion and now it's turning into garbage. I appreciate some of your guys responses, but there are already some people that have nothing to do but complain and bitch.
I don't know why this forum brings out the worse out of people. I've read threads on n54 tech, and it seems much more friendly and Terry seems very chill. Is it just me? The only reason I go to this thread more often is because there is more information available and I frankly wasn't interested in the JB3 too much... The PROcede seems more innovative to me. |
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07-07-2009, 07:41 PM | #94 | |
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And I'll ask it again in a different way. Since the introduction of CANBUS with the Procede, does it mean that you are able to control most of the parameters (other than the rev limiter) and therefore making a flash insignificant? The only difference is that you are intercepting variables instead of creating or writing them directly to the DME? |
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07-07-2009, 07:47 PM | #95 | |
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07-07-2009, 08:15 PM | #96 | |
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I don't know, maybe I'm not technical enough, but I think I'm not getting my current question across. Shiv said there are more benefits with his PROcede than flashes. Fine, I agree with that right now. However, he said that with the introduction of CANbus to the PROcede that he is able to control/interpret hundreds of more variables. Sooo, I was wondering that if he is able to control most of the important variables, that in essence it's pointless for him to create a flash since his product controls just as much variables, albeit a different way which is intercepting and putting his own variables rather than writing directly into the DME? I am leaning more towards a flash tune for my personal reasons, and I was hoping and inquiring if Shiv would be creating a flash tune since the other flash tunes are disappointing to me. |
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07-08-2009, 06:24 AM | #97 | |
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07-08-2009, 08:12 AM | #98 |
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To be able to flash tune you need a constant auxillary stable battery supply as a starting point. When you flash the ECU you will always have a footprint with date, time and what program has been installed, it shows that the ECU has been flashed. This is also the case with deleting fault code memory. In most late model cases you only have an option in the DME for 14 flashes then it is expired and it can be binned. A failing DME ecu is common and are regularly replaced now even when doing progman updates. The DME is not the only ECU that intergrates either, when they do update the DME the likihood of another ECU's falling over is high. The inteface to be able to talk and modify the DME is way different to any other brand cars as others have posted above. The BMW DME just does not work like that for this car.
Now as a viable option for the tuners why would you produce a flash when all the owner has to do is go back to the dealer or independent and get a service and updates done and then the tuner would have to offer free updates for his tuned files again. In the life of the car the tuner would then be married to that car for life. Hardly a good business practice. When the owner of the car gets DP's then he'd need to get a new flash, what about an exhaust or intake, new flash, your burning up the ECU slots. Talking to the Germans recently i know they have no plans at all to have home DIY'ers doing there own form of tuning through OBD, it is just too complex. If you want to talk about the the companies who have to send the ECU's off, then they are probably offering "ECU modification" burning directly to the chip rather than through the OBD. Just a few random thoughts in no particular order. What the future holds with new technology, no-one knows. |
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07-08-2009, 10:29 AM | #99 | |
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07-08-2009, 11:47 AM | #100 | ||
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The reason for this was the innovative way the N54 ECU (initially, MSD80) was secured. You could not just alter the parameter tables and flash it, since the whole ECU is protected by a cryptographic key - and not merely by a checksum like earlier ECUs usually used. BMW knew that a turbo gas engine would be THE target of choice for tuners and did not want to warrant the damages associated with "wild tunes". So, they protected their ECU in an almost uncrackable way. In Germany, BMW's partner Alpina was involved into N54 development at an early stage in order to develop their 360 HP B3. Rumor says that the former head of Alpina's engine development, Noelle, got hands on an unprotected pre-beta version of the engine software, which laid the basis for the Noelle flash tune. Maybe Dinan bought that version, frankly, I don't know. Matter-of-fact, those two companies were the first - and for a long time, only - ones that could actually flash an N54 ECU. BMW knew this and developed the MSD81 ECU, which used another cryptographic key - along with some tricky new mechanisms in the software to detect tuning measurements. This was the main reason, why at its advent, no flash tuner was able to flash the MSD81 ECU. This condition continued a few months. Then, an israeli company cracked the keys and put out a toolset which every tuner could buy and use to flash the N54 ECU (both types). Thus, for a tuner that entered the N54 arena later, there now was an option to tune the ECU in the "traditional" way. It is way easier and cheaper if you don't have to build hardware, so your profit is maximised. I doubt that any of the me-too flash tuners out there modify something more than parameter tables and limits (such as max speed or anti-tune detection). Alteration of the ECU software itself is most likely kept to a minimum. Given the long experience and new possibilities (think of CAN bus) of Vishnus piggyback solution, I can understand why Shiv does not re-invest just in order to bring forward a flash solution which might be more limited in terms of power than the Procede by the internal structure of the ECU software itself (even the most aggressive flash tunes make less power than the Procede). Analyzing and altering that structure would probably cause more cost than anybody would like to pay for, you included. |
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07-08-2009, 12:29 PM | #101 | |
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07-08-2009, 12:33 PM | #102 | |
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There have been flashing tools available for the MSD80/81 for nearly a year now. So there is no actual technical hurdle to cross when it comes to the actual read/write process. Even basic re-mapping, for most tuners, will only involve reading a stock ROM and that of a Dinan/Noelle/etc,. tuned car and doing a ROM image comparison to see what tables do what and re-tuning from there. And even then, we would be stuck with the same constraints that the current flash tuners are faced with. Of course, they wont tell you that. But results speak louder than words. Shiv |
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07-08-2009, 12:57 PM | #103 | |
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07-08-2009, 01:01 PM | #104 |
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So, the main reason that the PROcede is better than flashes is because the flashes out there can modify less parameters than the PROcede, especially with the introduction of CANbus?
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07-08-2009, 01:05 PM | #105 | |
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The PROcede approach is so much less evasive and invisible to the DME. It's here to stay. Shiv |
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07-08-2009, 01:47 PM | #106 | |
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Obviously as I said, the DME on this car is different and more complicated, but I still think that only means it's a matter of time, not an impossibility. dR |
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07-08-2009, 01:48 PM | #107 | |
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07-08-2009, 01:53 PM | #108 | |
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While the ECU may still be there in the morning, it's not unusual to actaully want the sensors to report to the ECU what's actually happening in real time, rather than altering the signal to please the ECU. I'm not worried about it's feelings, I simply prefer that the ECU actually see what sensors are reporting, and adjust fuel, timing etc. appropriately. Obviously the piggybacks are much more effective on the N54 than on the EJ20, but it's still an altered signal in order to achieve a goal, rather than a pure signal and a map designed to use that instead. I know you dismiss the difference though. I just think the current issues for flashing the N54 will eventually be solved, and it'll be a superior solution, just like it was on the DSMs, the subies, and the EVOs. Certainly not bashing your product now. It's clearly the class of the ECU tuning market right now (IMO). |
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07-08-2009, 02:07 PM | #109 | |||
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In order to get approval for a tune (and you need it, or otherwise you lose insurance protection along with heavy fines), it has to be scrutinzed by an appointed expert. Approved products have to fulfill emission regulations, among many others. Noelle has approval, as have some other flash tunes. Field-programmable tunes like the Procede have one very important feature too many: They cannot get approval, because they can easily and invisibly be modified after approval. That is the main reason why I don't have a piggyback on my car. Quote:
As Shiv put it: Quote:
Last edited by meyergru; 07-08-2009 at 02:35 PM.. |
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