[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

At times I think of a new Z06 as a track car. A Viper is more enticing of course but the reviews say it is very, very hard to drive fast.

Lol, watch this review. The "hard to drive fast" stuff came from a test of pre-production car that had a toed out rear tire and unbedded brakes. The car in this test is a post-production car (the ones customers actually receive) with all the kinks worked out. I'm not saying it's easy to drive, but it's no harder than any other high-hp, high-torque, relatively lightweight RWD car. At least it has traction control, unlike my now sold 996 GT2!

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

Lol, watch this review. The "hard to drive fast" stuff came from a test of pre-production car that had a toed out rear tire and unbedded brakes. The car in this test is a post-production car (the ones customers actually receive) with all the kinks worked out. I'm not saying it's easy to drive, but it's no harder than any other high-hp, high-torque, relatively lightweight RWD car. At least it has traction control, unlike my now sold 996 GT2!

Bottom line is the new viper lost in a comparo to an out of production Corvette ZR-1 and after specifically gunning for it barely beat it . It's fastest TA version also was less than a second faster at VIR vs the Camaro Z28 . The C7 Z06 will destroy it on track . Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the base viper wasn't faster than a C7 Z51 . Dodge screwed up for the price pretty bad initially and that's why it sat on lots and sales will continue to be low once the Z06 comes out .

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Bottom line is the new viper lost in a comparo to an out of production Corvette ZR-1 and after specifically gunning for it barely beat it . It's fastest TA version also was less than a second faster at VIR vs the Camaro Z28 . The C7 Z06 will destroy it on track . Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the base viper wasn't faster than a C7 Z51 . Dodge screwed up for the price pretty bad initially and that's why it sat on lots and sales will continue to be low once the Z06 comes out .

The real bottom line is that a N/A Viper TA on street tires and steel brakes beat a S/C ZR1 on R-compounds and carbon brakes. Top Viper vs top Corvette (which was not out of production at the time), Viper won.

The same TA, on a similar tire the Z/28 runs, was 2.8 seconds faster than the production car record time it just set at Laguna Seca, so no comparison to a Z/28 at all. Without those tires, the Z/28's times wouldn't even be talked about. Also, the post-production base Viper is only .8 seconds slower than the T/A on the SRT test track on the same street tires. Vipers are simply faster around a track than Corvettes are, even with inferior tires and brakes. I also own a C7 Z/51 Stingray and have no problem admitting that fact.

The new Z06 only makes 10 more HP the the ZR1 did, yet weighs almost 200 lbs more. The only Z06 that will have a chance beating the Viper will be the Z06 with Z07 package (cup tires, carbon brakes and a lot of aero), but even then, the new TA 2.0 is already available to order with much better aero, and if they decide to slap a set of the same cup tires that the Z06 runs on the TA, it's game over for the Corvette.

Can't wait!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

Lol, watch this review. The "hard to drive fast" stuff came from a test of pre-production car that had a toed out rear tire and unbedded brakes. The car in this test is a post-production car (the ones customers actually receive) with all the kinks worked out. I'm not saying it's easy to drive, but it's no harder than any other high-hp, high-torque, relatively lightweight RWD car. At least it has traction control, unlike my now sold 996 GT2!

Very interesting

They don't specify which 'slicks' they used though.

The base z51 was already compared vs the regular viper and it lost by a ton of time even though they didn't have the skill to push the viper

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Very interesting

They don't specify which 'slicks' they used though.

The base z51 was already compared vs the regular viper and it lost by a ton of time even though they didn't have the skill to push the viper

I think they used Hoosiers, but I'm not 100% positive.

However, at 10:20 in this different video, SRT themselves explains that they tested Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on the Viper TA and were 2.5 seconds faster with them on the TA than the standard Corsa street tires the cars come with. Even Pobst says in the video that Cups are essentially as fast as racing slicks when he states they are "almost a pure race tire". The technology of R-compounds has really come a long way, which explains why the Z/28 runs the times it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=k-ItYO0LoMU

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

The real bottom line is that a N/A Viper TA on street tires and steel brakes beat a S/C ZR1 on R-compounds and carbon brakes. Top Viper vs top Corvette (which was not out of production at the time), Viper won.

The same TA, on a similar tire the Z/28 runs, was 2.8 seconds faster than the production car record time it just set at Laguna Seca, so no comparison to a Z/28 at all. Without those tires, the Z/28's times wouldn't even be talked about. Also, the post-production base Viper is only .8 seconds slower than the T/A on the SRT test track on the same street tires. Vipers are simply faster around a track than Corvettes are, even with inferior tires and brakes. I also own a C7 Z/51 Stingray and have no problem admitting that fact.

The new Z06 only makes 10 more HP the the ZR1 did, yet weighs almost 200 lbs more. The only Z06 that will have a chance beating the Viper will be the Z06 with Z07 package (cup tires, carbon brakes and a lot of aero), but even then, the new TA 2.0 is already available to order with much better aero, and if they decide to slap a set of the same cup tires that the Z06 runs on the TA, it's game over for the Corvette.

Can't wait!

The TA had R compound tires too . A brand new version of the Pirelli corsa R comp 60 tread wear specifically for it . Street tires LMAO .

[gmd2003]

295 /355 60 tread wear r comps yeah it def was under tired .

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

295 /355 60 tread wear r comps yeah it def was under tired .

Zr1 sport cups DOTR as well but 80 tread wear and smaller

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

295 /355 60 tread wear r comps yeah it def was under tired .

I can see that you're trying very hard, so I'll help you out a little.

The Viper TA runs Pirelli P-Zero Corsa System tires. They are very good tires (outstanding), but they are not true R-compounds. The next stickiest tire Pirelli makes is the P-Zero Trofeo, and the stickiest one they produce is called the P-Zero Trofeo Rs, which are true R-compounds. Trofeo Rs are the tires that the Z/28 comes with.

Michelin's comparable tire to the Trofeo R is called the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup or Cup ZP (the run-flat version). These are also true R-compounds. These are ZR1 OEM tires and are of course what the ZR1 used in the test against the Viper TA.

Not only did the Viper TA on non R-compounds beat the ZR1 running true R-compounds, but SRT also tested the ZR1's Cup tires on their TA, and they ran 2.5 seconds faster lap than they did with the OEM Corsa Systems, so obviously the ZR1's Cup tires are MUCH faster track tire than the Corsa Systems are.

So you can call the Viper's tires whatever you want, point out treadwear ratings, size, whatever....but the fact is they are 2.5 seconds slower on the same car than the Cup tires the ZR1 uses, which is why tens of thousands of track rats around the US use Cups on their track cars every weekend instead of Corsa Systems.

The C7 Z06 (Z07 package) will be running the exact same tires the ZR1 ran, Cup ZPs. The non Z07 version will run the Pilot Super Sport 2 ZPs (non R-compounds).

Hope this helps.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

and if they decide to slap a set of the same cup tires that the Z06 runs on the TA, it's game over for the Corvette.

Can't wait!

i agree - it will be a great comparison. however, based on the reviews i've seen of each, i believe the vette will still be the preferred car to own, just a hunch. HOWEVER, that's not to say that those who DO own a viper aren't absolutely elated with the car. i just think that seems like it has been the trend and what has been ingrained in our minds with previous vipers and vettes which is why i see about 10 vettes a day and have seen like 1 viper in the last year. whether or not you think it's true, i think the general public sees the viper as a car that wants to be beat you into submission until you have no choice but to spin it into a tree.

once again, i'm definitely not knocking your choice … i'm playing it REALLY safe by getting a white M3, not even any funky colors… talk about pedestrian! and if there were a viper and a vette side by side and i were to rent one for a weekend, i'd definitely choose the Viper.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

I think they used Hoosiers, but I'm not 100% positive.

However, at 10:20 in this different video, SRT themselves explains that they tested Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on the Viper TA and were 2.5 seconds faster with them on the TA than the standard Corsa street tires the cars come with. Even Pobst says in the video that Cups are essentially as fast as racing slicks when he states they are "almost a pure race tire". The technology of R-compounds has really come a long way, which explains why the Z/28 runs the times it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=k-ItYO0LoMU

It would not be a bad idea for them to update the TA 2.0 with proper tires.
All of its competition will be using the PSC2, no reason a 'time attack' Viper shouldn't have them as well.

I hope to own a Viper one day!

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

I can see that you're trying very hard, so I'll help you out a little.

The Viper TA runs Pirelli P-Zero Corsa System tires. They are very good tires (outstanding), but they are not true R-compounds. The next stickiest tire Pirelli makes is the P-Zero Trofeo, and the stickiest one they produce is called the P-Zero Trofeo Rs, which are true R-compounds. Trofeo Rs are the tires that the Z/28 comes with.

Michelin's comparable tire to the Trofeo R is called the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup or Cup ZP (the run-flat version). These are also true R-compounds. These are ZR1 OEM tires and are of course what the ZR1 used in the test against the Viper TA.

Not only did the Viper TA on non R-compounds beat the ZR1 running true R-compounds, but SRT also tested the ZR1's Cup tires on their TA, and they ran 2.5 seconds faster lap than they did with the OEM Corsa Systems, so obviously the ZR1's Cup tires are MUCH faster track tire than the Corsa Systems are.

So you can call the Viper's tires whatever you want, point out treadwear ratings, size, whatever....but the fact is they are 2.5 seconds slower on the same car than the Cup tires the ZR1 uses, which is why tens of thousands of track rats around the US use Cups on their track cars every weekend instead of Corsa Systems.

The C7 Z06 (Z07 package) will be running the exact same tires the ZR1 ran, Cup ZPs. The non Z07 version will run the Pilot Super Sport 2 ZPs (non R-compounds).

Hope this helps.

Dude the michelin sport cups are a DOT R Streetable competition tire as well . I have used both tires on track and they are certainly equivalent , the cups might be quicker but not 2 seconds quicker . Keep dreaming , neither tire is a true track only Slick like a Hoosier R7 . Randy Probst the driver in the comparo sure thought it was the brakes and the magnetic suspension of the ZR-1 that made it faster , not tires .

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Dude the michelin sport cups are a DOT R Streetable competition tire as well . I have used both tires on track and they are certainly equivalent , the cups might be quicker but not 2 seconds quicker . Keep dreaming , neither tire is a true track only Slick like a Hoosier R7 . Randy Probst the driver in the comparo sure thought it was the brakes and the magnetic suspension of the ZR-1 that made it faster , not tires .

Dude, the TA is 2.5 seconds quicker on Cups than it is on the stock Corsas. No amount of arguing or wishing it wasn't true is going to change that fact.

In the first comparo, the pre-production Viper had problems with suspension alignment and the brakes weren't bedded in yet. Once they used an actual production Viper, the Viper won, and Pbost was raving about it in two different videos. Everything I'm saying is in the videos posted in this thread. The Cup discussion starts at 10:20 in the round-table video that I posted.

The Viper currently holds 9 production car lap records on tracks throughout the US because it's simply a faster track car than the ZR1 is, even though it has inferior track tires. Corvette better do wonders with the Z06, because it has almost 3 seconds to make up again the TA on the same tire.

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

i agree - it will be a great comparison. however, based on the reviews i've seen of each, i believe the vette will still be the preferred car to own, just a hunch. HOWEVER, that's not to say that those who DO own a viper aren't absolutely elated with the car. i just think that seems like it has been the trend and what has been ingrained in our minds with previous vipers and vettes which is why i see about 10 vettes a day and have seen like 1 viper in the last year. whether or not you think it's true, i think the general public sees the viper as a car that wants to be beat you into submission until you have no choice but to spin it into a tree.

once again, i'm definitely not knocking your choice … i'm playing it REALLY safe by getting a white M3, not even any funky colors… talk about pedestrian! and if there were a viper and a vette side by side and i were to rent one for a weekend, i'd definitely choose the Viper.

You're correct about the perception. I actually prefer that the general public see it that way. Part of the reason I canceled my Z06 order is because the C7 Z06 will be so common, coming in four different iterations; coupe, convertible, auto and manual. Just another one of a million Corvettes on the road. No thanks.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

Dude, the TA is 2.5 seconds quicker on Cups than it is on the stock Corsas. No amount of arguing or wishing it wasn't true is going to change that fact.

In the first comparo, the pre-production Viper had problems with suspension alignment and the brakes weren't bedded in yet. Once they used an actual production Viper, the Viper won, and Pbost was raving about it in two different videos. Everything I'm saying is in the videos posted in this thread.

The Viper currently holds 9 production car lap records on tracks throughout the US because it's simply a faster track car than the ZR1, even with inferior tires. Period.

It went from a Viper GTS to a the 'new" T/A variant , both were production models. They ran the TA on R7's after the test and picked up 2.5 seconds , not sport cups. You are wrong about the sport cups period! lol . The Viper is a very fast unique car but I am certain you will be making all kinds of excuses shortly when it goes up against the new Z06. The C7 ZO6 will come with the PSS ZCP or the optional DOT-R the new Michelin sport cup 2 which has a 180 tread rating this time around. It is supposed to last twice as long as the old sport cups and be better in the rain.

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It would not be a bad idea for them to update the TA 2.0 with proper tires.
All of its competition will be using the PSC2, no reason a 'time attack' Viper shouldn't have them as well.

I hope to own a Viper one day!

I agree with you completely.

I think they 'might' do a comparison between the C7 Z06 and the TA 2.0 with the TA on the stock Corsas first, and then with a set of Cups on it, because of the massive amount of controversy that surrounded the first test when different tires were used. We'll see.

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

It went from a Viper GTS to a the 'new" T/A variant , both were production models. They ran the TA on R7's after the test and picked up 2.5 seconds , not sport cups. You are wrong about the sport cups period! lol . The Viper is a very fast unique car but I am certain you will be making all kinds of excuses shortly when it goes up against the new Z06. The C7 ZO6 will come with the PSS ZCP or the optional DOT-R the new Michelin sport cup 2 which has a 180 tread rating this time around. It is supposed to last twice as long as the old sport cups and be better in the rain.

Negative. The Viper GTS they used in the test was NOT a production car. It was a pre-production car that should have never been used, but SRT fell behind on time (their own fault) and had no other options.

You are only half-right on your second point. Yes, MT ran the TA on R7s after the test and picked up 2.8 seconds on Laguna Seca. However, in addition to that, SRT themselves ran their TA on Michelin Cups and picked up 2.5 seconds on their test track over the OEM Corsas. So the Cups were almost as fast as the R7s were, and even Pobst admits it on video (again, all of this information is available elsewhere in this thread). You have been wrong over and over again, and you're making yourself look more and more clueless with every post.

I was #1 on the Z06 list and removed myself because GM is killing innocent people with faulty ignition switches (19 so far, could be upwards of 125 people killed), they can't seem to stop having cars recalled (Gen V Viper has had zero recalls), the Z06 will be overweight and its cachet diluted by offering auto and convertible options, and it's just another Corvette in a sea of Corvettes with no exclusivity at all. The Viper being the better performance car (and a lot better looking to boot), is just icing on the cake for me.

The funniest part about this argument is that you aren't even a Corvette owner or a Viper owner like I am. Nut-swing much?

[SYT_Shadow]

Divv, I do think the new Z06 with Z07 will be faster than the new Viper, even if the tires are the same.

I still prefer the Viper as it is the only american supercar.

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Divv, I do think the new Z06 with Z07 will be faster than the new Viper, even if the tires are the same.

I still prefer the Viper as it is the only american supercar.

That's cool. I think the Z07 on Cups will beat the TA on Corsas, but I think a TA on Cups will beat the Z07. I also think Corvette will have their best shot to dethrone the TA using an auto Z07 package car, rather than a manual, but I still don't think it will be enough assuming they are on the same tire.

But, we'll have to wait to see. You might be right. If so, if a TA on Cups loses to the Z07, I'll eat crow

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

Negative. The Viper GTS they used in the test was NOT a production car. It was a pre-production car that should have never been used, but SRT fell behind on time (their own fault) and had no other options.

You are only half-right on your second point. Yes, MT ran the TA on R7s after the test and picked up 2.8 seconds on Laguna Seca. However, in addition to that, SRT themselves ran their TA on Michelin Cups and picked up 2.5 seconds on their test track over the OEM Corsas. So the Cups were almost as fast as the R7s were, and even Pobst admits it on video (again, all of this information is available elsewhere in this thread). You have been wrong over and over again, and you're making yourself look more and more clueless with every post.

I was #1 on the Z06 list and removed myself because GM can't stop having cars recalled (Gen V Viper has had zero recalls), the Z06 will be overweight and the cachet diluted by using auto and convertible options, and is just another Corvette in a sea of Corvettes with no exclusivity at all. The Viper being the better performance car (and a lot better looking to boot) is just icing on the cake.

The funniest part about this argument is that you aren't even a Corvette owner or a Viper owner like I am. Nut-swing much?

Which is why I am impartial . GM's chassis engineers really has been killing it lately . I have driven the C7 Z51 and it's an amazing package . One with just aero and R7's making stock 460 hp set the NASA TT2 time trial record at my local track Roebling road . Which was 5 seconds faster than a gen 4 viper ACR on michelin full slicks at the same track .

[Divexxtreme]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Which is why I am impartial . GM's chassis engineers really has been killing it lately . I have driven the C7 Z51 and it's an amazing package . One with just aero and R7's making stock 460 hp set the NASA TT2 time trial record at my local track Roebling road . Which was 5 seconds faster than a gen 4 viper ACR on michelin full slicks at the same track .

You claim to be impartial, but you're swinging hard on the Corvette. You've also been dead wrong, and continuously negative about most of the stuff we've talked about so far regarding the Gen V Viper. That doesn't show impartiality at all.

I will admit that I also think the C7 is a fantastic car. I really can't complain about it at all (except the shift-feel, not a fan). If they had kept the C7 Z06 close to the weight of the C7, I'd be thrilled. But it's damn near 250 lbs heavier than the C7 is. Then they add convertible and auto options? I'll pass. I know why GM is doing it, for more sales, but it takes away from the Z06 brand IMO.

Anyway, let's just see how things play out between the Viper TA 2.0 and the Z07 package C7 Z06. It'll be interesting to say the least.

Have a good one.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Divexxtreme

That's cool. I think the Z07 on Cups will beat the TA on Corsas, but I think a TA on Cups will beat the Z07. I also think Corvette will have their best shot to dethrone the TA using an auto Z07 package car, rather than a manual, but I still don't think it will be enough assuming they are on the same tire.

But, we'll have to wait to see. You might be right. If so, if a TA on Cups loses to the Z07, I'll eat crow

Oh yes definitely the auto! It will be interesting for sure!