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      04-05-2013, 03:20 AM   #45
Hotcoupe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon View Post
Did seem odd the original thread was closed; perhaps we're not allowed to debate politics any more, despite there being no personal attacks that I saw.
Mmm I think I'll disagree with you there Ian,I'd imagine I had something to do with the thread being closed, and some of my comments were a little personal, and for that I can only apologise to you and the other two individuals- Phil & Fulcrum

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Originally Posted by fulcrum View Post
Latest stats here

http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/wor..._ibr_jan13.xls

So for the quarter ending May 12 out of 142600 assessments: 41900 were found fit for work. 4300 stopped claiming before their assessment. 7800 are still in progress i.e. appealed.Still high and causing issues for HMCS.
I've not looked at the link,anything that comes from the Govt is going to be skewed,and if you look at other data,released from charity and disability organisations,the figures differ widely, and there are a number of relevant factors why some people stop claiming ESA,one being that professional opinions are rarely sought by the DWP,and even when they are, it's ignored.

One question for you,of the 142,600 assessments you quote,the figures account for 54,000,what's happening with the remaining 88,600?

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Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
Fantastic post from Matt
As someone who has been through the mill in many respects, and is now classed as being disabled, I have seen at first hand how people who have no realistic chance of gaining employment through no fault of their own, and who will now suffer immeasurably as a result of the welfare changes,this subject is very close to my heart.
It doesn't take much to go from living a nice and comfortable life,to one where the future is bleak and far from certain,I'm very fortunate in comparison to some I've met.

Going back to the other thread, and a subject that started my less than diplomatic rants:

DLA,is NOT for life,it is NOT just a case of filling out a form without corroborative evidence from GP's and medical consultants.
My wife suffers from Multiple Sclerosis, and has done for twenty odd years.
She has been reassessed 4 times now,despite her condition being one that never ever goes away.

ATOS have discarded evidence from her GP and consultant neurologist on two occasions,the ATOS assessor who visited my house on two occasions whilst the reassessments were carried out used a laptop to carry out the assessment,it was nothing more than a tickbox exercise which results in points being awarded.
Su has been found fit for work twice,once when she was blind (albeit temporarily) and unable to use her hands,the other occasion was when she struggled to get out of bed in the morning,and also struggled to walk.

I have no problem with the shirkers/scroungers in life being targetted,bring it on,but not everyone claiming benefits is a Philpott,not everyone who gets support for medical conditions is leading a life of Reilly.

My concern with this attack on the Welfare system is for those who are in a far worse situation than those of mine and my wifes,the ones who can't fight their own corner,and who have no one to do it for them.
Many quite frankly just give up,they don't have the energy, or in some cases the where with all to fight a system that is so weighted against them.

Anyway,enough all ready.
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      04-05-2013, 03:38 AM   #46
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^ can't fault any of that. For the avoidance of doubt, I do not consider all claimants to be scroungers and I totally agree that the system does seem to make things difficult for the genuine and easier for the Philpotts of the world, but the sensationalist right-wing press probably reinforce that view.

Something needs to be done but I don't profess to have any answers.

I'll apologise too, especially if my flippant remarks seemed in any way include you or your wife when it is evident that they should not have done.
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      04-05-2013, 05:13 AM   #47
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Hotcoupe - apology accepted and one back from me if any of my comments rubbed.

As it happens I too am disabled - two shot knees from rugby- I limit myself to a Blue Badge. I could technically claim DLA but do not because I have adapted and it would be taking the piss.

I am sorry to hear about your wife. On the face of it she is getting a raw deal but ATOS Doctors do NOT make he final decision. DWP decision makers do and they do so purely on the evidence presented to them, by the individual, their GP etc and ATOS. I guess you have asked for and seen that evidence to ensure it is complete and correct.

I know little about MS other than it is a complex disease but in the most common type symptoms come and go for many years. I do know ATOS Doctors will take the view that these are often manageable and with the right reasonable adjustments under disability law - work is very possible. But I know nothing about your wife's personal circumstances so will leave it there.

You asked what happened to the other 88600 people in the statistics I supplied.49300 were placed in the work related activity group (not expected to look for work immediately but will be able to some in the future with support - placed on higher rate ESA after 13 weeks) and 39400 were judged to fall within the support group (not fit for work and not likely to be). So in summary 68% entitled to benefit and 32% not.

As for DLA - I have to disagree with you. Though it has been tightened up considerably in the last few years. Here are the 2010 statistics.

Evidence Used in DLA New Claim Decisions, 2010.

Claim Form Only 16%
General Practitioner Report 42%
Medical Examination Report 6%
Other Source of Evidence 36%

So only 6% of claimants had a medical examination.

In ten years, the number of people claiming DLA has risen by almost 35% (from 2.4 million to 3.3 million)

DLA can be awarded for a fixed or an indefinite period. People can continue to receive the allowance after reaching age 65 if they continue to satisfy the entitlement conditions. Most awards are indefinite. Reasons for stopping claiming are death, reduction in care needs or leaving the UK. And the most common cause is death. An unfortunately high number do not declare reduction in care requirements or that they have left the UK. Hence the daily media articles on fraudsters and why DWP has people in Spain, Portugal, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

You also doubt DWP statistics and prefer what the various lobby groups say. They are the same statistics! Interpreted differently. But the DWP's interpretation becomes a Parliamentary record in most cases.They are also verified by the UK Statistics Authority for National Statistics - they are an Independent body and are not particularly favorable to some Ministers interpretation of them.

As for the tick box - this is part of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA). DWP rightfully got real stick over this and committed themselves to ensure that the WCA is as fair and accurate as possible, As part of this, Professor Malcolm Harrington, a highly respected Occupational Physician, has carried out three independent reviews of the WCA. It has been almost totally revamped and he is happy with it now (cost DWP a fortune.) Though he did think the pace of implementation of these changes too slow.

Sorry for the long response.

Last edited by fulcrum; 04-05-2013 at 05:18 AM..
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      04-05-2013, 07:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by fulcrum View Post
Hotcoupe - apology accepted and one back from me if any of my comments rubbed.

As it happens I too am disabled - two shot knees from rugby- I limit myself to a Blue Badge. I could technically claim DLA but do not because I have adapted and it would be taking the piss.

I am sorry to hear about your wife. On the face of it she is getting a raw deal but ATOS Doctors do NOT make he final decision. DWP decision makers do and they do so purely on the evidence presented to them, by the individual, their GP etc and ATOS. I guess you have asked for and seen that evidence to ensure it is complete and correct.

I know little about MS other than it is a complex disease but in the most common type symptoms come and go for many years. I do know ATOS Doctors will take the view that these are often manageable and with the right reasonable adjustments under disability law - work is very possible. But I know nothing about your wife's personal circumstances so will leave it there.

You asked what happened to the other 88600 people in the statistics I supplied.49300 were placed in the work related activity group (not expected to look for work immediately but will be able to some in the future with support - placed on higher rate ESA after 13 weeks) and 39400 were judged to fall within the support group (not fit for work and not likely to be). So in summary 68% entitled to benefit and 32% not.

As for DLA - I have to disagree with you. Though it has been tightened up considerably in the last few years. Here are the 2010 statistics.

Evidence Used in DLA New Claim Decisions, 2010.

Claim Form Only 16%
General Practitioner Report 42%
Medical Examination Report 6%
Other Source of Evidence 36%

So only 6% of claimants had a medical examination.

In ten years, the number of people claiming DLA has risen by almost 35% (from 2.4 million to 3.3 million)

DLA can be awarded for a fixed or an indefinite period. People can continue to receive the allowance after reaching age 65 if they continue to satisfy the entitlement conditions. Most awards are indefinite. Reasons for stopping claiming are death, reduction in care needs or leaving the UK. And the most common cause is death. An unfortunately high number do not declare reduction in care requirements or that they have left the UK. Hence the daily media articles on fraudsters and why DWP has people in Spain, Portugal, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

You also doubt DWP statistics and prefer what the various lobby groups say. They are the same statistics! Interpreted differently. But the DWP's interpretation becomes a Parliamentary record in most cases.They are also verified by the UK Statistics Authority for National Statistics - they are an Independent body and are not particularly favorable to some Ministers interpretation of them.

As for the tick box - this is part of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA). DWP rightfully got real stick over this and committed themselves to ensure that the WCA is as fair and accurate as possible, As part of this, Professor Malcolm Harrington, a highly respected Occupational Physician, has carried out three independent reviews of the WCA. It has been almost totally revamped and he is happy with it now (cost DWP a fortune.) Though he did think the pace of implementation of these changes too slow.

Sorry for the long response.
Sorry to hear of your troubles Fella,and thanks for the apology.

I can't imagine we'd make the best of drinking buddies,as I rather suspect that we would have very different views,certainly on this subject,if no other.

I'm an ordinary Joe,a very sceptical one, and you as you said in the closed thread,you advise MP's and other bodies on certain issues,and probably have access to certain information that I don't.

I'd imagine that perhaps we see things differently,you appear to prefer data and statistics put foward by Govt bodies and the ilk,unsurprisingly I don't.

Trusting Govt and any other politicians is extremely foolhardy,and I could list the genuine reasons as to why this is the case on all ten fingers/thumbs, and all ten toes,I have then run out of digits to use.

Coming back to DLA, you place great store in only 6% of claimants having a medical examination,why is this so important?

I see the reason as to why only 6% of claimants need a medical examination in a different way to the way you see it,perhaps I'm being naive,but given the fact that the reported fraud figure detected in DLA claimants is 0.5% of the total figure claiming,perhaps I'm not as naive as I might think.

I'll stop there,with the exception of making a comment about Professor Michael Harrington,I don't doubt his credentials,and on the whole his contributions to Govt policy has often sided on those who genuinely need help.

However it hasn't escaped my attention that Professor Michael Harrington was effectively sacked from his position, and the 4th review of the WCA is being carried out by Dr Paul Litchfield.

Why Govt policy needs quite so many reviews is interesting,and one can't help wondering just how much money these reviews cost.
The other interesting question to ask is why the Professor was replaced after carrying out three reviews,and why the feck is a fourth review needed and by a different professional.

Could it be that Professor Michael Harrington's recommendations favoured those that others didn't want to be favoured?

Trust a Politician?
Trust a Govt?

It would be like putting your savings in a Cypriot bank?
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      04-05-2013, 09:02 AM   #49
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You might be surprised - I try and do whats right and based on the evidence not what is the current political flavor - got me in trouble more than once but my conscience is clear.

You are absolutely right about the detected level of fraud in DLA, But the answer is simple. Most cases require surveillance evidence ie video and photos of individuals carrying out activities contrary to their claim. Getting it is expensive so unless the intelligence is good a full investigation is not carried out. What is more likely to happen is a telephone call or an appointment for a chat. If the claim is then ceased or changed then there is usually no over payment and hence no debt to count as fraud in the statistics. Even if there is unless there has been a full investigation and and an interview under caution -any overpayment would be classified as error rather than fraud.

On the other hand DWP has powers to access some of the best data sources across the public and private sector. So data matching can be done on the other benefits which are impacted by income, pensions, capital, work etc unlike DLA. This is cheap and very successful with the resulting over payments recorded as fraud.

On which - as I said the statistics are the same everyone uses but with all statistics interpretation can differ. I use my own in formulating policy.

Yes, you are right about the Professor. He was originally appointed by the last Government. I cannot comment more on that but it was probably time for a fresh set of eyes to look at it.

The reviews are not expensive - the work flowing out of them is. For instance a minute longer to undertake the WCA costs thousands.
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      04-06-2013, 12:27 AM   #50
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For the last 12months I've been doing a lot of work on healthcare statistics, and I can take the same raw data about a disease and produce two completly different headline death rates, 15% vs 35%. Both are correct, but it purely depends on how the data is 'adjusted' and presented.

Sales of the Nissan Leaf is a good example, environmental lovers are claiming the Leaf is a sales sensation with year on year growth of 100%, but actually your talking about Nissan selling 100 cars a year compared to 50 cars a year....

Therefore I take any statistics issued by the government as a rough guide, at best about any particular situation. The problem with looking at statistics is you quickly forget its people lives that make up the numbers, and I can guarrente even if two numbers look the same on a piece of paper the real life situation of those two individuals may be miles apart.

Hence people (quite rightly) become emotional when politicians come out quoting random numbers. The pediatric heart surgery review in England is a perfect example of what happens when policy makers are seen to be compelty disengaged from the human side of things. Personally I hate statistics with a passion, you need to understand the data yes, and you need data to guide policy, but when politicians who have no idea how the real world works start quoting random percentages it becomes a pointless excercise.

Clearly some people abuse the benefits system, but having traveled to just about every continent in the world, as UK citizens we should all be thankful should any of us fall ill/sick/loss work unexpectly we aren't going to end up sleeping rough, riffing through rubbish bins, or begging for healthcare.

The system does need changing, but anyone who pretends to understand the situation fully, or thinks they have a solution, is either very very intelligent or just deluded

Last edited by gangzoom; 04-06-2013 at 12:37 AM..
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      04-06-2013, 03:34 AM   #51
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I was more worried about being called a daily mail reader!

Atos have been widely criticised for their handling of the assessments. 38% of their decisions were overturned at appeal at huge cost to the tax payer and emotional turmoil for the claimant.

It's fair to say we all agree on one thing - the system is failing those most in need.
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      04-06-2013, 09:57 AM   #52
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Benefits and subsidies

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
I was more worried about being called a daily mail reader!

Atos have been widely criticised for their handling of the assessments. 38% of their decisions were overturned at appeal at huge cost to the tax payer and emotional turmoil for the claimant.

It's fair to say we all agree on one thing - the system is failing those most in need.
I think its also fair to say that A system could work fine IF it was restricted to those who need it most. Instead, the attempt is to collect as much tax as possible and hook as many people on benefits as possible, regardless of what they earn
If you look at the entire benefit and subsidy system, UK plus EU, it makes no sense whatsoever....the really needy are a minor percentage of the overall bill but so many people are entitled to handouts including massive payouts to the UK's largest and wealthiest landowners.

Its not just the benefit system that needs to be overhauled, the whole taxation, and subsidy systems needs a radical overhaul. The real needy simply get buried then loose out because the overall system is unsustainable
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      04-07-2013, 09:09 PM   #53
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...akfast-1810086
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      04-08-2013, 02:58 AM   #54
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Don't see how that is relevant? He probably spends more than that on fuel too? I'm sure he could not declare most of his income like the trader and live in 53 a week
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      04-08-2013, 03:36 AM   #55
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Those types of articles infuriate me. Firstly I don't have to believe its true because they tend to write so much shit, even if it is true anyone who has worked hard all their life deserves to have niceties like this from time to time.

All papers like this try to do is smear names in mud to rally the masses for some type of witch against the "other side".

I read another article how they are stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. What utter bollox.

They simply aren't told that 70% of income taxes come from 20% of the population. 5% of population the super rich pay 45% of the total taxes, way way more the vast majority of the population. Almost twice as much.

So if they knew they would see screwing them over would have large affects. The rich didnt pay as much tax when the upper rate was increased, they just loaned themselves the money at the going rate, so they had to bring the rate back down.

They also create opportunities and employment for the masses and even though some companies are seen to play the system this envy culture is getting boring.

I can't comment with confidence on this welfare cut because I don't read and study things I don't need to know, I keep focused on stuff that is important to me. My view on the cuts is if you genuinely need it you should be protected and helped. If not you need to work harder. I don't care and don't want to hear excuses, people need to do whatever it takes. They need to make sacrifices. I've seen it first hand how lazy people can be then quick to moan.

I have people employeed who turn up late, put in minimum effort, moan to colleagues, disrupt ethos and show no willing to progress in their career then moan how they aren't getting paid enough. When I was employed I was in every day on time, worked as many hours as it took to get the job done. Pushed myself well outside my comfort zone on many occasion.

The world might change one day and I could no longer have a business. When that day comes I will get my lawn mower put it in the car and go and cut grass, I will paint houses and I will figure out routines and methods every day to get quicker and more efficient. When I get home I will figure out a new business plan for my next Internet adventure. I will do whatever it takes. 9-5 means nothing to me.

Last edited by briers; 04-08-2013 at 03:45 AM..
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      04-08-2013, 05:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briers View Post
Those types of articles infuriate me. Firstly I don't have to believe its true because they tend to write so much shit, even if it is true anyone who has worked hard all their life deserves to have niceties like this from time to time.

All papers like this try to do is smear names in mud to rally the masses for some type of witch against the "other side".

I read another article how they are stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. What utter bollox.

They simply aren't told that 70% of income taxes come from 20% of the population. 5% of population the super rich pay 45% of the total taxes, way way more the vast majority of the population. Almost twice as much.

So if they knew they would see screwing them over would have large affects. The rich didnt pay as much tax when the upper rate was increased, they just loaned themselves the money at the going rate, so they had to bring the rate back down.

They also create opportunities and employment for the masses and even though some companies are seen to play the system this envy culture is getting boring.

I can't comment with confidence on this welfare cut because I don't read and study things I don't need to know, I keep focused on stuff that is important to me. My view on the cuts is if you genuinely need it you should be protected and helped. If not you need to work harder. I don't care and don't want to hear excuses, people need to do whatever it takes. They need to make sacrifices. I've seen it first hand how lazy people can be then quick to moan.

I have people employeed who turn up late, put in minimum effort, moan to colleagues, disrupt ethos and show no willing to progress in their career then moan how they aren't getting paid enough. When I was employed I was in every day on time, worked as many hours as it took to get the job done. Pushed myself well outside my comfort zone on many occasion.

The world might change one day and I could no longer have a business. When that day comes I will get my lawn mower put it in the car and go and cut grass, I will paint houses and I will figure out routines and methods every day to get quicker and more efficient. When I get home I will figure out a new business plan for my next Internet adventure. I will do whatever it takes. 9-5 means nothing to me.
Yeah but that is all irrelevant because if you reduce the top tax bracket by 1% the super rich get a £50,000 tax cut but the poor don't get a £50,000 a year increase in income?! HOW CAN THIS BE?
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      04-09-2013, 03:58 PM   #57
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To Matt:

Hope Jen's eye gets better for her and she makes a full recovery. But if the worse does happen to her eye, then keeping her job surely would still be viable given disability legislation and the like?

On the old scroungers front etc....my idea is this, any none medical reason for not working isn't given anything....period. Now hear me out, instead of them being given anything why don't we have a system of "public works" the government employs you for 10hrs per week to carry out a manner of simple tasks that need doing in society. There is some element of choice but ultimately you have to pick job todo inorder to get paid. You are paid (not given) minimum wage for your time. So, the amount it costs the state is roughly the same. If you carry out public works you still have 30hrs per week to find a proper job as such. Society benefits from these public works that previously didn't get done or even money could be saved by moving some state jobs over to public works. The image of public works would be one of sympathy and appretiation rather than disdane. People that never wanted to work would now have to. If people refused these works then they would have the option of moving into some sort if hostel that would provide a very basic existance but still within the human rights act etc.
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