ESS Supercharger Update

Cdutch513 · 09-02-2016, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

What would you like me to try?

Click the start button without your foot on the brake and see if you can hear the throttle body clicking.

From the driver's seat I did not hear any clicking.

Your throttle body is the problem. Most people would never know about the problem because the N52 doesn't use the throttle body unless valvetronic fails, but the ESS tune must know the position.
Mine was doing the same thing so I pulled it off, sprayed down the electrical connector, and using my hand made the throttle plate do a full cycle of open and close. After that try it again, if no clicks still I would say it's your throttle body. You can find them used on eBay for like 100 bucks.

Thank you, I will give it a try.

No problem. I hope everything works out for you!

Tom Droze · 09-02-2016, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

No AA headers here, but I have a brand new set of AFE catted headers I'll sell you.

He was kidding

I know.

Dan Bilzerian · 09-03-2016, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

No AA headers here, but I have a brand new set of AFE catted headers I'll sell you.

Promise they won't explode like yours?

Ruddigger · 09-03-2016, 12:41 PM

Wont you be putting headers back on once the supercharger is removed?

Cdutch513 · 09-04-2016, 03:05 PM

Did you try messing with the throttle body?

Tom Droze · 09-05-2016, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Did you try messing with the throttle body?

Not yet, as I had a pretty full weekend. Because it is going back to the shop tomorrow for the fuel pump replacement, I was planning on having them R&R the throttle body to make certain it is working correctly.

Cdutch513 · 09-05-2016, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Did you try messing with the throttle body?

Not yet, as I had a pretty full weekend. Because it is going back to the shop tomorrow for the fuel pump replacement, I was planning on having them R&R the throttle body to make certain it is working correctly.

Oh ok.
I really hope this all works out for you man. I know exactly how you feel.

Tom Droze · 09-05-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Oh ok.
I really hope this all works out for you man. I know exactly how you feel.

Thank you. With regard to the CEL I have been getting, the codes were indicating the O2 sensors are slow to respond, I'd clear the codes and they would come back. Yesterday, I hooked up my Schwaben scan tool just to reconfirm the codes and I had no stored codes even though the CEL was on. I ran the full scan and I did get a fault code related to the instrument cluster and the fuel gauge calibration, which is why they are replacing my fuel pump again; but what I don't know is if this fault code will provide a CEL. The weird thing about my idle hunting is, it only does it with the AC turned on, with the AC off, the idle is perfect every time. The car runs great except for my idle issue, so...

Cdutch513 · 09-05-2016, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Oh ok.
I really hope this all works out for you man. I know exactly how you feel.

Thank you. With regard to the CEL I have been getting, the codes were indicating the O2 sensors are slow to respond, I'd clear the codes and they would come back. Yesterday, I hooked up my Schwaben scan tool just to reconfirm the codes and I had no stored codes even though the CEL was on. I ran the full scan and I did get a fault code related to the instrument cluster and the fuel gauge calibration, which is why they are replacing my fuel pump again; but what I don't know is if this fault code will provide a CEL. The weird thing about my idle hunting is, it only does it with the AC turned on, with the AC off, the idle is perfect every time. The car runs great except for my idle issue, so...

Bad maf possibly? You are running the tune that uses it, correct? When is the last time you looked at it?

I know for sure that not hearing audible clicking from the throttle body is an issue. Mine did the same thing and that is how AJ found the issue.

Tom Droze · 09-05-2016, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Bad maf possibly? You are running the tune that uses it, correct? When is the last time you looked at it?

I know for sure that not hearing audible clicking from the throttle body is an issue. Mine did the same thing and that is how AJ found the issue.

Yes, I am running the tune that uses the MAF sensor. It was looked at when they installed the supercharger. I have never used a K&N filter and I only have 38,000 miles on my car, but stranger things have happened.

Cdutch513 · 09-05-2016, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Bad maf possibly? You are running the tune that uses it, correct? When is the last time you looked at it?

I know for sure that not hearing audible clicking from the throttle body is an issue. Mine did the same thing and that is how AJ found the issue.

Yes, I am running the tune that uses the MAF sensor. It was looked at when they installed the supercharger. I have never used a K&N filter and I only have 38,000 miles on my car, but stranger things have happened.

Even with the oil catch can my car(90k) still puts oil through the system. Which coats the maf in oil.

JayTriggy14 · 09-05-2016, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Thank you. With regard to the CEL I have been getting, the codes were indicating the O2 sensors are slow to respond, I'd clear the codes and they would come back. Yesterday, I hooked up my Schwaben scan tool just to reconfirm the codes and I had no stored codes even though the CEL was on. I ran the full scan and I did get a fault code related to the instrument cluster and the fuel gauge calibration, which is why they are replacing my fuel pump again; but what I don't know is if this fault code will provide a CEL. The weird thing about my idle hunting is, it only does it with the AC turned on, with the AC off, the idle is perfect every time. The car runs great except for my idle issue, so...

Hey Tom. I would also check/replace your coils. This maybe the culprit if you are getting idle vibrations when your A/C is on.

AJ@ESS · 09-06-2016, 05:00 PM

Hi,

I just got back to AZ and I have actually not heard about this until I read it here. Obviously something is very wrong here, and it is impossible for me to remotely guess what it is. I have to go through the car to find the problem, I have seen everything from a bad throttle body, coil problems to a fuel delivery problem to a MAF/MAP sensor issue in the ~150 N52 kits we have done so far. Since you say only idle is affected I am guessing a MAF/MAP problem. The N52 can sometimes be finicky when you add boost to it if something is not 100%. If you can bring the car down to us in Chandler at your convenience we will give you a free loaner car and check everything out. I also have a 128i as an R/D car so I can just swap over parts until I find the problem without any cost. If there is a problem that can not be resolved on your car, we will uninstall the kit and refund it, but this is for sure not a kit hardware problem. Something is most likely out of spec in the engine fuel control system, and I should easily be able to get to the bottom of it if I have the car. Just call us at 480-525-9160 to schedule the drop off.

And for the record for the people joking about headers, you simply can't use headers that move the primary O2 sensors several feet from the engine on a N52. The MSV70/80 adaptation system will never work correctly like this. If you do not believe this, come by with your header equipped car and I will show you on a simulated road test what is actually going on when the adaptation system does not have correct control. You may not notice this much from the driver seat on a NA car, but it can be disastrous when supercharged if fuel control is not spot on under load. The MSV70/80 adaptation system is very quick and the feedback delay from moving primary O2 sensors 3ft downstream creates large waves in actual vs targeted AFR.

hassmaschine · 09-06-2016, 05:52 PM

I don't know if you can tune it but I have found the table that adjusts for the exhaust gas speed/distance for the O2 adaption routine. If you are interested let me know..

AJ@ESS · 09-06-2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't know if you can tune it but I have found the table that adjusts for the exhaust gas speed/distance for the O2 adaption routine. If you are interested let me know..

Yes, we have all MSV70/80 ECU info. We have not really seen any significant gains with headers on these kits as long as OEM cats are in good working order and we have not been able to dial in anywhere near acceptable O2 feedback control with long tube headers even in the gas speed/distance calibration. It is extremely sensitive. We have not seen anyone elses "header" tune be able to either, adaptation is all over the place. If you want to give it a try, you are welcome to play with our R/D car.

rjahl · 09-06-2016, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Quote:

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't know if you can tune it but I have found the table that adjusts for the exhaust gas speed/distance for the O2 adaption routine. If you are interested let me know..

Yes, we have all MSV70/80 ECU info. We have not really seen any significant gains with headers on these kits as long as OEM cats are in good working order and we have not been able to dial in anywhere near acceptable O2 feedback control with long tube headers even in the gas speed/distance calibration. It is extremely sensitive. We have not seen anyone elses "header" tune be able to either, adaptation is all over the place. If you want to give it a try, you are welcome to play with our R/D car.

There you go Hass, an unpaid weekend in Phoenix with a supercharged n52 and maybe a dyno. Sept is probably still too hot, wait until November and the weather will be fantastic. Spent six years in Phoenix a long time ago.

Probably won't help you with your project car. But could be fun.

E91 M Sport · 09-06-2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

We have not really seen any significant gains with headers on these kits as long as OEM cats are in good working order and we have not been able to dial in anywhere near acceptable O2 levels.

Why do you think that's the case? It baffles me that this engine doesn't like both performance additions. Going back to the old saying that an engine is an air pump and when ever you increase the amount of air in and out you increase the amount of power available.

AJ@ESS · 09-06-2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E91 M Sport

Why do you think that's the case? It baffles me that this engine doesn't like both performance additions. Going back to the old saying that an engine is an air pump and when ever you increase the amount of air in and out you increase the amount of power available.

We see the same thing on a lot of cars. M54 TS2 gains around 5-7whp from headers, same on the N52. It is not really a flow restriction as long as cats are not clogged. On our R/D 2006 330i, bone stock besides Gen.2 SC kit it developed 280whp with 120mm pulley(6PSI), 300whp with 115mm(7PSI) pulley and 320whp with 110mm(8PSI) pulley. There was not a substantial exhaust restriction even with considerably more boost than we normally run in these kits.

JayTriggy14 · 09-06-2016, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Yes, we have all MSV70/80 ECU info. We have not really seen any significant gains with headers on these kits as long as OEM cats are in good working order and we have not been able to dial in anywhere near acceptable O2 feedback control with long tube headers even in the gas speed/distance calibration. It is extremely sensitive. We have not seen anyone elses "header" tune be able to either, adaptation is all over the place. If you want to give it a try, you are welcome to play with our R/D car.

Hey AJ. Do you think that upgrading the fuel pump to a walbro will better remedy the fuel delivery problem since the unit is stock? I know a lot of e46 m3's that run the ess supercharger do this as precautionary to ensure they don't run lean. Thanks again for all the information!

AJ@ESS · 09-06-2016, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTriggy14

Hey AJ. Do you think that upgrading the fuel pump to a walbro will better remedy the fuel delivery problem since the unit is stock? I know a lot of e46 m3's that run the ess supercharger do this as precautionary to ensure they don't run lean. Thanks again for all the information!

No, OEM fuel pump is fine as long as it does not have 100.000+ miles on it. Same with S54 pumps, OEM works fine even in our VT2-575 kit as long as they are healthy. You can actually run into a problem of overpowering the regulator system if you run to strong a pump. Some people have installed 400LPH in E46 M3's and complain about weird engine behavior. That is because idle fuel pressure is 5-6 bar even if the regulator is set to 3.5. It can't regulate the massive volume correctly.

The ESS N52 Gen.2 kit can comfortably fuel to 320-330whp on OEM fuel pump. More than this is not needed as we typically only run 280-290whp max.

JayTriggy14 · 09-06-2016, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

No, OEM fuel pump is fine as long as it does not have 100.000+ miles on it. Same with S54 pumps, OEM works fine even in our VT2-575 kit as long as they are healthy. You can actually run into a problem of overpowering the regulator system if you run to strong a pump. Some people have installed 400LPH in E46 M3's and complain about weird engine behavior. That is because idle fuel pressure is 5-6 bar even if the regulator is set to 3.5. It can't regulate the massive volume correctly.

The ESS N52 Gen.2 kit can comfortably fuel to 320-330whp on OEM fuel pump. More than this is not needed as we typically only run 280-290whp max.

Awesome! Thanks for the info! I guess alot of the m3 guys upgrade the pump to run a blend of e85. Also I saw in your example with the stock 330i you guys were able to run 8 psi using a different pulley(110 mm). Is it possible to swap the 120mm for that as I know that comes standard. Is it based on the transmission?

hassmaschine · 09-06-2016, 11:25 PM

I'm not going to dispute what AJ has posted, except to point out that headers arent about removing a flow restriction at all - the purpose is to increase velocity and scavenging. Even if the sensors were in the same exact location, the increased exhaust velocity would still change how the feedback loop reacts.

That tells us that they do work although its unclear to me if its truely been tuned for or not (there are no units on that time lag map - its not obvious to me how you would tune it). Its hard to believe that 6 psi would change it that much.

Maybe there are more factors involved - I will have to study the code some more - also, this conversation was an aside, not meant to sidetrack from Tom's issues. I hope they can be resolved.

09-03-2016, 12:41 PM	#26
Ruddigger Major 694 Rep 1,302 Posts Drives: 2012 E91 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0)	Wont you be putting headers back on once the supercharger is removed? __________________ My build thread. It's a wagon with stuff on it.
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09-04-2016, 03:05 PM	#27
Cdutch513 Captain 161 Rep 699 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 BMW 328i Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Oak Harbor, WA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2010 BMW 328I [0.00]	Did you try messing with the throttle body? __________________ Murdered 2010 E90 328i ESS VT1+ \| BMW PE \| 3IM \| K Sport Kontrol Pro
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09-06-2016, 05:00 PM	#35
AJ@ESS Second Lieutenant 29 Rep 230 Posts Drives: E60 M5 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	Hi, I just got back to AZ and I have actually not heard about this until I read it here. Obviously something is very wrong here, and it is impossible for me to remotely guess what it is. I have to go through the car to find the problem, I have seen everything from a bad throttle body, coil problems to a fuel delivery problem to a MAF/MAP sensor issue in the ~150 N52 kits we have done so far. Since you say only idle is affected I am guessing a MAF/MAP problem. The N52 can sometimes be finicky when you add boost to it if something is not 100%. If you can bring the car down to us in Chandler at your convenience we will give you a free loaner car and check everything out. I also have a 128i as an R/D car so I can just swap over parts until I find the problem without any cost. If there is a problem that can not be resolved on your car, we will uninstall the kit and refund it, but this is for sure not a kit hardware problem. Something is most likely out of spec in the engine fuel control system, and I should easily be able to get to the bottom of it if I have the car. Just call us at 480-525-9160 to schedule the drop off. And for the record for the people joking about headers, you simply can't use headers that move the primary O2 sensors several feet from the engine on a N52. The MSV70/80 adaptation system will never work correctly like this. If you do not believe this, come by with your header equipped car and I will show you on a simulated road test what is actually going on when the adaptation system does not have correct control. You may not notice this much from the driver seat on a NA car, but it can be disastrous when supercharged if fuel control is not spot on under load. The MSV70/80 adaptation system is very quick and the feedback delay from moving primary O2 sensors 3ft downstream creates large waves in actual vs targeted AFR. Last edited by AJ@ESS; 09-06-2016 at 05:21 PM..
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09-06-2016, 05:52 PM	#36
hassmaschine Major General 3966 Rep 7,215 Posts Drives: "NBO" 330i Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: earth iTrader: (0)	I don't know if you can tune it but I have found the table that adjusts for the exhaust gas speed/distance for the O2 adaption routine. If you are interested let me know..
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09-06-2016, 11:25 PM	#44
hassmaschine Major General 3966 Rep 7,215 Posts Drives: "NBO" 330i Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: earth iTrader: (0)	I'm not going to dispute what AJ has posted, except to point out that headers arent about removing a flow restriction at all - the purpose is to increase velocity and scavenging. Even if the sensors were in the same exact location, the increased exhaust velocity would still change how the feedback loop reacts. That tells us that they do work although its unclear to me if its truely been tuned for or not (there are no units on that time lag map - its not obvious to me how you would tune it). Its hard to believe that 6 psi would change it that much. Maybe there are more factors involved - I will have to study the code some more - also, this conversation was an aside, not meant to sidetrack from Tom's issues. I hope they can be resolved.
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