[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by n54door

IMO - Performance is the bigger comparision. A ECU Flash and a Piggyback system are two completely different methods. The reason a JB4 can switch on the fly maps is because it is not written to the ECU Rom, but rather, a device that controls the Engine sensors outside of the ECU, which has some notable consequences and limitations. The performance of a real ECU flash such as the OFT will always have the upper hand because the ECU is truly doing to the realtime calculations using more relavent tables for the task rather than a piggyback controlling/intercepting sensors outside of the ECU to emulate performance. The latter causes performance inconsistencies and delays in the delivery of the power.

The features, bells, and whistles will have their pros/cons, but overall, I'm buying performance.

That said, knowing any ECU flash system will never have on the fly map switching, the feature should not be compared when looked at a ECU flash option.

There is nothing inherently "superior" about flash tuning. It allows access to some things you can't easily change on the piggyback end like fuel trims when running big E85 mixtures but the flash also has some inherent limitations with its boost control and learning algorithms. As I said on the piggyback front the JB4 G4 and JB4 G5 ISO are completely different animals.

I loaded Shiv's Stage1 flash map and drove around for a day just to get a feel for it for myself and I noticed they programmed a ton of boost at mid throttle. I saw 16-17psi on my gauge at only 50% throttle input. The JB4 on the other hand has a more linear programming from no boost to full boost at 0-100% throttle input. I much prefer the more linear mapping but I get that many of you may like full boost at half throttle. If there are enough of you we can talk BMS in to making a similar mapping or user adjustable for the JB4.

Mike

[Nonecure]

I have been running Cobb's linear throttle for a long time and just last month switched to standard throttle. It does feel more responsive, but I really don't like full boost at only 50% throttle. The higher boost you run, I would think the more linear you would want the throttle. It can be entertaining to barely press on the gas and get thrown back into your seat, but on a daily driver, it can get annoying at times. I have an OpenFlash coming, so I can see how Shiv's flash works. I still think you should not have full boost until around 80% throttle. Can someone please explain why full boost at 50% is a good thing? Can we get good throttle response at 80% full boost?

[Ilma]

I'm not saying it's a good thing.......but there is something to the fast spool up.

The boost hits harder and faster and shoves the car forward way more.

And I could not replicate the spool up on my piggy by dialing in the same boost targets at low rpms.

Something else going on here.

[roadkillrob]

In my book a flash is always greater than a piggyback, much more control, not intercepting and separately processing the signals, tricking the ECU to do things that you can just program with a flash.

That being said, there are things you will never be able to do in a Flash that a Piggyback can do, so ultimately depending what you want to do, you may choose one over the other but Flashing is now widely available and cheap and the surface has just been scratched - it is the wave of the future now!

[n54door]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There is nothing inherently "superior" about flash tuning. It allows access to some things you can't easily change on the piggyback end like fuel trims when running big E85 mixtures but the flash also has some inherent limitations with its boost control and learning algorithms. As I said on the piggyback front the JB4 G4 and JB4 G5 ISO are completely different animals.

I loaded Shiv's Stage1 flash map and drove around for a day just to get a feel for it for myself and I noticed they programmed a ton of boost at mid throttle. I saw 16-17psi on my gauge at only 50% throttle input. The JB4 on the other hand has a more linear programming from no boost to full boost at 0-100% throttle input. I much prefer the more linear mapping but I get that many of you may like full boost at half throttle. If there are enough of you we can talk BMS in to making a similar mapping or user adjustable for the JB4.

Mike

Mike,

I had the exact experiene with the jb4, where the boost got up to about 15lbs at partial throttle, only there was not nearly the same power. I heard the turbos spool, but expecter more, it just never hit as hard.

Not knocking it, just explaining the difference in my experience was the flash translated the extra boost to more power than the jb4 did for me. But the boost targets were fairly similar with the jb4 on map 5, just not the same power output.

[kirbycorp]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There is nothing inherently "superior" about flash tuning. It allows access to some things you can't easily change on the piggyback end like fuel trims when running big E85 mixtures but the flash also has some inherent limitations with its boost control and learning algorithms. As I said on the piggyback front the JB4 G4 and JB4 G5 ISO are completely different animals.

I loaded Shiv's Stage1 flash map and drove around for a day just to get a feel for it for myself and I noticed they programmed a ton of boost at mid throttle. I saw 16-17psi on my gauge at only 50% throttle input. The JB4 on the other hand has a more linear programming from no boost to full boost at 0-100% throttle input. I much prefer the more linear mapping but I get that many of you may like full boost at half throttle. If there are enough of you we can talk BMS in to making a similar mapping or user adjustable for the JB4.

Mike

I think it's pretty telling how much more consistent and powerful the OTS maps are versus a piggyback.


It's really no comparison, in my opinion. Piggybacks can feel powerful in cooler weather with e85 or meth/race gas.

OTS flash maps from the tablet pull very very hard on straight 93 octane.

I'm actually selling my jb4 because of the inconsistent power delivery and funky throttle reponse.

[kirbycorp]

Originally Posted by n54door

Mike,

I had the exact experiene with the jb4, where the boost got up to about 15lbs at partial throttle, only there was not nearly the same power. I heard the turbos spool, but expecter more, it just never hit as hard.

Not knocking it, just explaining the difference in my experience was the flash translated the extra boost to more power than the jb4 did for me. But the boost targets were fairly similar with the jb4 on map 5, just not the same power output.

X2

Power output is a lot different on the open flash tablet. More power, more consistency, etc.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by n54door

Mike,

I had the exact experiene with the jb4, where the boost got up to about 15lbs at partial throttle, only there was not nearly the same power. I heard the turbos spool, but expecter more, it just never hit as hard.

Not knocking it, just explaining the difference in my experience was the flash translated the extra boost to more power than the jb4 did for me. But the boost targets were fairly similar with the jb4 on map 5, just not the same power output.

Like I've said a couple times now you were running a G4. It's been a *long* time since I ran one of those system so I don't exactly recall what partial throttle boost was. I know it's a lot less than 15psi but they had some throttle closure issues etc from time to time.

Here is a log from the current G5 ISO system. Note at 50% throttle input its targeting around 5psi of boost and at 60% throttle input around 8psi of boost. Then at 100% throttle input you can see it targets 17psi on this particular map.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Procede has been doing isolation boost control for years. It's funny to remember all those times that Terry@BMS and Mike@n54tuning argued that it was dangerous and risky. Only to copy and promote it as greatest thing ever years later. One of many examples of repetitive history

[kirbycorp]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Procede has been doing isolation boost control for years. It's funny to remember all those times that Terry@BMS and Mike@n54tuning argued that it was dangerous and risky. Only to copy and promote it as greatest thing ever years later. One of many examples of repetitive history

Good points.

I also remember the lack of an external power wire as a selling point for the jb3....



That, plus the lack of a need for code reading/clearing because the BT cable.


All things the procede has had since '10

[Brass217]

Im looking to purchase the tablet for my daily driver (stock e90), what map should I run if I want to optimize power gains without sacrificing mpg? And how long does it take to reflash/ change maps?

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by Brass217

Im looking to purchase the tablet for my daily driver (stock e90), what map should I run if I want to optimize power gains without sacrificing mpg? And how long does it take to reflash/ change maps?

What grade fuel do you have access to? 91 or 93? And the initial read of your rom file takes about 60 minutes and then it takes about 10-12 min to change maps.. There has been rumor they are working on a 70 second write for map changing

[Brass217]

70 seconds would be nice! And I have access to 92 octane.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by Brass217

70 seconds would be nice! And I have access to 92 octane.

Best bet would be to just see how the car runs on both maps, for some reason even though i was using 93 my car didnt like stage 1 and ran better on stage 0

[lolololol]

So - is the general view (of those that have / had JB4) that the OFT is now the way forward ?

[BEAR-AvHistory]

The JB4/ISO & BT cable BMS back end flash has proven to be very strong. 11.9/118 in an otherwise pure stock 335is running an E85/93 mix with OEM RFT.

Not bad for a JB4/ISO $500 + BT cable $179.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by omaragha

So - is the general view (of those that have / had JB4) that the OFT is now the way forward ?

I wouldnt say that, i had the OFT and just recently sold it and bought a jb4..

[n54door]

Originally Posted by #teambimmer

I wouldnt say that, i had the OFT and just recently sold it and bought a jb4..

You are all over the place, lol! You gave a solid review of the oft, what happened??

I had a jb4, while the top end power makes it desirable, it is not as consistent as a flash tune. The oft just came out, revisions and enhancements are right around the corner.

[n54door]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

The JB4/ISO & BT cable BMS back end flash has proven to be very strong. 11.9/118 in an otherwise pure stock 335is running an E85/93 mix with OEM RFT.

Not bad for a JB4/ISO $500 + BT cable $179.

Plus a laptop, plus a learning curve on how to piece it all together, plus little to no vendor support, plus the risk of making mistakes in the process.. its not for everyone.

[BD_F22]

Originally Posted by n54door

You are all over the place, lol! You gave a solid review of the oft, what happened??

I had a jb4, while the top end power makes it desirable, it is not as consistent as a flash tune. The oft just came out, revisions and enhancements are right around the corner.

My initial impression was amazing and it was incredibly smooth but then recently i started experiencing weird symptoms on stage 1 and flashed the car to stock and all symptoms went away.. tried both stage 0 and 1 on and off for about 2 weeks and the symptoms persisted (not one code thrown and replaced my coils and sparks before tuning, also had the car in for a diagnosis and everything was running strong and no issues).. Now driving the car for a week stock the car feels strong and smooth again.. I guess my car just didnt agree with the tablet.. Although i am switching, i would still highly recommend the tablet to people, just because it didnt work out for me doesnt mean it wont for others.. I will eventually re-invest in a tablet for the bms backend fuel flash because i confirmed with terry that the tablet will flash it the exact same way the bt cable would..

[Shadow007]

I have a question regarding people using meth kits. Is there any maps or plans to integrate methanol controls? The reason why I ask is because I would like to check out the tablet but I'm using the jb4 +fsb for my methanol setup but if there's no way for methanol integration I might as well stick with the piggyback tunes.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by Shadow007

I have a question regarding people using meth kits. Is there any maps or plans to integrate methanol controls? The reason why I ask is because I would like to check out the tablet but I'm using the jb4 +fsb for my methanol setup but if there's no way for methanol integration I might as well stick with the piggyback tunes.

You can keep that setup and just add the backend flash. I suggest u start searching a bit