Tires spinning on rim under acceleration/braking

NotACarGuy · 09-13-2017, 12:25 AM

Hi all, I've got a weird problem and am hoping someone has ran into this before.

I recently got a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport XLs install on my E93 335is (19" style 313 rims).

Now, in the 4 weeks I've had the tires, I've had the wheels rebalanced 3 times- not because they were balanced badly in the first place, but because they keep going OUT of balance. After the the third balancing, I figured out why- I marked the tire and wheel with a sharpie and found out the tire is actually spinning on the rim (sharpie lines on tire and rim don't line up after a couple of days).

The shop I got the balancing from, Firestone, told me they can fix it by taking a hammer and a sharp objects to the rim and making some notches right where the bead sits, to prevent the tires from rotating. I'm not sure I want to go that route- sounds like the rim might get damaged during this process

Has anyone ran into this situation before, and if so, how'd you fix it?

Thanks in advance.

Manual Transmission · 09-13-2017, 01:44 AM

...Jesus, they want to take a hammer to your rims? I have no idea if that's a legitimate way to solve the issue but I would definitely not accept that.

tlow98 · 09-13-2017, 01:55 AM

Strange issue. You can also solve this issue by using a Dremel to rough up the rim.

Biginboca · 09-13-2017, 05:52 AM

In the Jeep world I've heard of guys using RTV sealant (think Heavy Duty Silicone) on the rims bead surface to keep the tire in place on the rim when running lower pressures off-road.

RTV sealant dries kinda hard and cleans up easier than the silicone you use on bathtubs etc.

The scoring of the rim your shop wants to do seems like it might make the rim not seal as well. And if the rim does slip again it will now be grinding the tires sealing surface probably making it seal even worse over time.

I wonder if your problem was caused by them overstretching the tire bead when they mounted it?

Greyfox · 09-13-2017, 06:16 AM

You start making marks in the rim where the bead sits you better start carrying a tire air pump with you.

Sounds to me that there is an issue with the tire or some kind of non-drying lubricant was put on the tire / rim when it was mounted. Or someone put way to much pressure on the bead during the mounting and stretched / damaged the tire bead.

Honestly, I would be going to another tire shop at this point and have them disassemble the wheel / tire to examine it.

BimmerNugget · 09-13-2017, 07:32 AM

You're gonna need new tires at this point. The bead is probably f**ked up that's why they don't seal or grip on properly. Not to mention this could be a safety hazard. Just get some cheap milestar tires from walmart if you don't have the cash right now. They're about $46 a pop last time i checked. Plus $12 per tire installation. Make sure the rim is thoroughly cleaned before mounting.

Memaxndapickel · 09-13-2017, 07:49 AM

If it's only the one tire doing it, could it be a manufacturer defect? I mean it could be the rim but if you did not have a problem before then try getting a warranty replacement from conti and see if the new tire stays. I'm no tire expert though....

robthewrench · 09-13-2017, 08:13 AM

The tires are defective because they are too large for the rim. Most likely a tire mold issue at the manufacturing plant. Pursue a refund or exchange. Your rim should not be rough as this actually causes air loss. Tires are made to mount to a smooth rim (think all new cars).

racermp · 09-13-2017, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthewrench

The tires are defective because they are too large for the rim. Most likely a tire mold issue at the manufacturing plant. Pursue a refund or exchange. Your rim should not be rough as this actually causes air loss. Tires are made to mount to a smooth rim (think all new cars).

what he said

tire bead could bad too. in the end, it's just bad tires. if you want to test, get a cheap used tire $25-30 to test on rim to see if the problem occurs.

Greyfox · 09-13-2017, 08:35 AM

btw... what are the width of the rims and what are the specs of the tires you are putting them on?

Cause you wouldn't be doing something like "stretching" the tire way past the maximum limit would you?

doru · 09-13-2017, 10:35 AM

Just drill a hole through rim and tire and bolt them on...

JK. As said: the tires are defective, this should NOT happen. DON'T use any scoring, roughing or notching of the wheel - you will ruin them.
Get a refund and run far away from that shop that suggested notching the wheels. Get a set of good quality tires. If you care about your wheels, take a look at the mounting machine they use. Most shops use a steel hook which usually takes the paint off the rim of the wheel, and later the tire will lose pressure, because the wheel will start to corrode at the rim level.
A reputable shop uses a plastic hook, which isn't cheap and needs to be replaced every so often, which most of the shops are not willing to do. Guys with plastic hook know their business and take care of their customers.

0.02

SpartaEvolution · 09-13-2017, 11:36 AM

What a weird problem, and great catch! I'd have started poking around at wheel bearings and suspension bushings before I suspected that! As for a solution, I agree with robthewrench and racermp, this is a potentially dangerous defect, and the tire needs to be replaced. I'd go back and demand a new tire, maybe going as far as calling Firestone or Continental directly if they try to tell you it's fine or suggest using a jack hammer on the rim again.

NotACarGuy · 09-13-2017, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memaxndapickel

If it's only the one tire doing it, could it be a manufacturer defect? I mean it could be the rim but if you did not have a problem before then try getting a warranty replacement from conti and see if the new tire stays. I'm no tire expert though....

Good point. It's both the rear tires. One of the fronts is like 2mm off from the line I drew on it, but I'm guessing that's within "tolerance". However, as robthewrench mentioned, that could be because both were molded at the same time and came out a little larger than they should've been. Or like racermp said, both their beads could be bad for whatever reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyfox

btw... what are the width of the rims and what are the specs of the tires you are putting them on?

Cause you wouldn't be doing something like "stretching" the tire way past the maximum limit would you?

I don't know the width off hand but they are OEM 19" style 313 rims. Tire size is 225/35/R19 front, 255/30/R19 back- same size as OEM Potenzas it comes with. So they shop could have stretched them while mounting, but the size is appropriate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpartaEvolution

What a weird problem, and great catch! I'd have started poking around at wheel bearings and suspension bushings before I suspected that! As for a solution, I agree with robthewrench and racermp, this is a potentially dangerous defect, and the tire needs to be replaced. I'd go back and demand a new tire, maybe going as far as calling Firestone or Continental directly if they try to tell you it's fine or suggest using a jack hammer on the rim again.

Yup, at first I was thinking bad balance or suspension issues- but after the second balance (which eliminated the vibration), I knew it was something else.

Thanks everyone for the responses. Based on the lines I drew, it currently looks like it's only the rear wheels that are rotating. However, before the second wheel balancing I got, the fronts got out of balance pretty bad (severe vibration in steering wheel started after a few days) so if the tires are bad, it's all four of them- which I would think is unlikely since they are different sizes (they wouldn't be part of the same batch I would think).

I'm getting BMW to check the tires out tomorrow, although I don't even know how they'll approach this problem. It's a shame I'm runnning into all these issues, each time I exited the wheel balancing place the car rode buttery smooth, only to let me down after a few days when the vibration started.

I'm starting to think it might just be the fact that the tires are new (http://www.continentaltire.com/node/1500). I did take it easy for the first 200 miles after tire installation, but maybe Conti's need more time to settle in? I'll be calling them to get some input as well. It does seem like they spin less and less on the rim every day...

NotACarGuy · 09-14-2017, 11:59 AM

Spoke to BMW today- they basically said it's either installer error or defective tires. I also think it might just be that they haven't settled in yet (too much lubricant when mounting?).

I'm doubting that all four tires are defective, especially since they aren't the same size, so I'm leaning toward installer error.

Does anyone know what kind of lubricant is supposed to be used on these tires and rims? I couldn't find anything online.

I also spoke to Continental and they asked me to send an email they can forward to engineering. I'm going to ask them to contact Firestone and make sure the tires were installed correctly. They should also be able to assess whether the tires are defective or not, and whether I'm still within the "break-in" period where tires can spin on the rims after installation (I've done around 500 miles so I highly doubt that's it).

Will keep everyone posted.

NotACarGuy · 12-14-2017, 01:46 PM

Reviving thread in case it helps anyone in the future.

I took the car back to the shop that did the original tire install. They took the tires off, cleaned up any residue on the rims (where the bead sits) from previous installs, and reinstalled the tires.

I've been driving it around for a couple of months now, issue seems to have been resolved.

09-13-2017, 12:25 AM	#1
NotACarGuy Private 16 Rep 83 Posts Drives: 2022 G82 M4 Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (0)	Tires spinning on rim under acceleration/braking - help! Hi all, I've got a weird problem and am hoping someone has ran into this before. I recently got a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport XLs install on my E93 335is (19" style 313 rims). Now, in the 4 weeks I've had the tires, I've had the wheels rebalanced 3 times- not because they were balanced badly in the first place, but because they keep going OUT of balance. After the the third balancing, I figured out why- I marked the tire and wheel with a sharpie and found out the tire is actually spinning on the rim (sharpie lines on tire and rim don't line up after a couple of days). The shop I got the balancing from, Firestone, told me they can fix it by taking a hammer and a sharp objects to the rim and making some notches right where the bead sits, to prevent the tires from rotating. I'm not sure I want to go that route- sounds like the rim might get damaged during this process Has anyone ran into this situation before, and if so, how'd you fix it? Thanks in advance.
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09-13-2017, 01:44 AM	#2
Manual Transmission Private First Class 30 Rep 159 Posts Drives: E90 Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: California iTrader: (0)	...Jesus, they want to take a hammer to your rims? I have no idea if that's a legitimate way to solve the issue but I would definitely not accept that.
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09-13-2017, 01:55 AM	#3
tlow98 Major General 2191 Rep 5,007 Posts Drives: 2009 E91, 2014 F15 x35i Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Bay Area iTrader: (2)	Strange issue. You can also solve this issue by using a Dremel to rough up the rim.
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09-13-2017, 05:52 AM	#4
Biginboca Colonel 3764 Rep 2,738 Posts Drives: 2009 E92 328i 6MT Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Boynton Beach, FL... USA iTrader: (3)	In the Jeep world I've heard of guys using RTV sealant (think Heavy Duty Silicone) on the rims bead surface to keep the tire in place on the rim when running lower pressures off-road. RTV sealant dries kinda hard and cleans up easier than the silicone you use on bathtubs etc. The scoring of the rim your shop wants to do seems like it might make the rim not seal as well. And if the rim does slip again it will now be grinding the tires sealing surface probably making it seal even worse over time. I wonder if your problem was caused by them overstretching the tire bead when they mounted it?
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09-13-2017, 06:16 AM	#5
Greyfox Colonel 1208 Rep 2,835 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi E91 - 330k+ (miles) Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: USA iTrader: (2)	You start making marks in the rim where the bead sits you better start carrying a tire air pump with you. Sounds to me that there is an issue with the tire or some kind of non-drying lubricant was put on the tire / rim when it was mounted. Or someone put way to much pressure on the bead during the mounting and stretched / damaged the tire bead. Honestly, I would be going to another tire shop at this point and have them disassemble the wheel / tire to examine it.
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09-13-2017, 07:32 AM	#6
BimmerNugget Crazy Frog 543 Rep 1,211 Posts Drives: L.L.Bean Bootmobile Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: 560 State Street iTrader: (0)	You're gonna need new tires at this point. The bead is probably f**ked up that's why they don't seal or grip on properly. Not to mention this could be a safety hazard. Just get some cheap milestar tires from walmart if you don't have the cash right now. They're about $46 a pop last time i checked. Plus $12 per tire installation. Make sure the rim is thoroughly cleaned before mounting.
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09-13-2017, 07:49 AM	#7
Memaxndapickel Second Lieutenant 111 Rep 231 Posts Drives: 2008 335i Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Philadelphia iTrader: (0)	If it's only the one tire doing it, could it be a manufacturer defect? I mean it could be the rim but if you did not have a problem before then try getting a warranty replacement from conti and see if the new tire stays. I'm no tire expert though....
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09-13-2017, 08:13 AM	#8
robthewrench Captain 266 Rep 952 Posts Drives: 11 E90 335i Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Columbus OH iTrader: (0)	The tires are defective because they are too large for the rim. Most likely a tire mold issue at the manufacturing plant. Pursue a refund or exchange. Your rim should not be rough as this actually causes air loss. Tires are made to mount to a smooth rim (think all new cars). __________________ bone stock
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09-13-2017, 08:35 AM	#10
Greyfox Colonel 1208 Rep 2,835 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi E91 - 330k+ (miles) Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: USA iTrader: (2)	btw... what are the width of the rims and what are the specs of the tires you are putting them on? Cause you wouldn't be doing something like "stretching" the tire way past the maximum limit would you?
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09-13-2017, 10:35 AM	#11
doru Lieutenant 126 Rep 482 Posts Drives: e92, f25, e46, e83 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Calgary iTrader: (0)	Just drill a hole through rim and tire and bolt them on... JK. As said: the tires are defective, this should NOT happen. DON'T use any scoring, roughing or notching of the wheel - you will ruin them. Get a refund and run far away from that shop that suggested notching the wheels. Get a set of good quality tires. If you care about your wheels, take a look at the mounting machine they use. Most shops use a steel hook which usually takes the paint off the rim of the wheel, and later the tire will lose pressure, because the wheel will start to corrode at the rim level. A reputable shop uses a plastic hook, which isn't cheap and needs to be replaced every so often, which most of the shops are not willing to do. Guys with plastic hook know their business and take care of their customers. 0.02 __________________ Stable: e92is f25 N52 e83 N52 e46ci M54B25 (e53 N62 - sold, R.I.P. e39 M54B30)
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09-13-2017, 11:36 AM	#12
SpartaEvolution Second Lieutenant 178 Rep 267 Posts Drives: E46 M3, E39 M5, E36 328racecar Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Redmond, WA iTrader: (0)	What a weird problem, and great catch! I'd have started poking around at wheel bearings and suspension bushings before I suspected that! As for a solution, I agree with robthewrench and racermp, this is a potentially dangerous defect, and the tire needs to be replaced. I'd go back and demand a new tire, maybe going as far as calling Firestone or Continental directly if they try to tell you it's fine or suggest using a jack hammer on the rim again.
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09-14-2017, 11:59 AM	#14
NotACarGuy Private 16 Rep 83 Posts Drives: 2022 G82 M4 Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (0)	Spoke to BMW today- they basically said it's either installer error or defective tires. I also think it might just be that they haven't settled in yet (too much lubricant when mounting?). I'm doubting that all four tires are defective, especially since they aren't the same size, so I'm leaning toward installer error. Does anyone know what kind of lubricant is supposed to be used on these tires and rims? I couldn't find anything online. I also spoke to Continental and they asked me to send an email they can forward to engineering. I'm going to ask them to contact Firestone and make sure the tires were installed correctly. They should also be able to assess whether the tires are defective or not, and whether I'm still within the "break-in" period where tires can spin on the rims after installation (I've done around 500 miles so I highly doubt that's it). Will keep everyone posted.
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12-14-2017, 01:46 PM	#15
NotACarGuy Private 16 Rep 83 Posts Drives: 2022 G82 M4 Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (0)	Reviving thread in case it helps anyone in the future. I took the car back to the shop that did the original tire install. They took the tires off, cleaned up any residue on the rims (where the bead sits) from previous installs, and reinstalled the tires. I've been driving it around for a couple of months now, issue seems to have been resolved.
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