[Former_Boosted_IS]

I know this is going to be for the technical guys, but I am working with a meth controller where you can devise injection strategies based on injector pulse width. My question is do the N54 direct injection fuel injectors have the same 12 volt signal as non direct injection fuel injectors?

Thanks in advance.

[scalbert]

It is 12 VDC but it will have multiple pulses per event at times and a single at other times.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It is 12 VDC but it will have multiple pulses per event at times and a single at other times.

Scalbert first off thanks for chiming in. Will the single pulses sometimes and multiple pulses other times cause a problem for the meth controllers that reference fuel injector PW?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Scalbert first off thanks for chiming in. Will the single pulses sometimes and multiple pulses other times cause a problem for the meth controllers that reference fuel injector PW?

It could but I can't say with 100% certainty as I am not sure when it runs multiple pulses. But you could hook it up and then tape a nozzle to the windshield and see how the controller reacts.

[lurker]

Scalbert,

Are you sure it is 12V? I thought the injectors were piezo, and would therefore run off several hundred volts? They would also be very short in duration compared to normal port injection, and as you have stated will probably have multiple pilot pulses to control the AFR in as a function of position in the combustion chamber.

I could be wrong above... maybe there is a new piezo technology... or maybe they are solenoid, but even soldenoid would need much higher voltage to overcome injector inductance within the short duration of the injection time.

-- Lurker

[Orb]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It could but I can't say with 100% certainty as I am not sure when it runs multiple pulses. But you could hook it up and then tape a nozzle to the windshield and see how the controller reacts.

You will not even see what happens it so fast and the gas partical are less than 1 micon in size so you will not see it. High speed camera does work but who has this.

Orb

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by Orb

You will not even see what happens it so fast and the gas partical are less than 1 micon in size so you will not see it. High speed camera does work but who has this.

Orb

Before the pulse. there is no fuel.
After the pulse, there is fuel.
That fuel has to go somewhere... and that somewhere will be packed with fuel.

Water vapor is less than 1 micron per particle... but you sure as hell can see it :P

-scheherazade

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Here is where I am going with this. I am looking to use the Snow Performance Stage 3 Meth Controller and have spoken extensively with Matt Snow. He said as long as N54 direct injection fuel injectors have the same 12 volt signal as non direct injection fuel injectors then the EFI PW part of the controller will work.

You guys know where I am going with this. If we can get a meth controller that is load and boost based, then we can map the injection stategy better.

[Highflyr]

Piezo injectors run off high voltage (100V+) still trying to hunt down exact values, but not having much luck.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Highflyr

Piezo injectors run off high voltage (100V+) still trying to hunt down exact values, but not having much luck.

Are we sure on this because Scalbert says 12V? Can someone test it?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by lurker

Scalbert,

Are you sure it is 12V? I thought the injectors were piezo, and would therefore run off several hundred volts? They would also be very short in duration compared to normal port injection, and as you have stated will probably have multiple pilot pulses to control the AFR in as a function of position in the combustion chamber.

I could be wrong above... maybe there is a new piezo technology... or maybe they are solenoid, but even soldenoid would need much higher voltage to overcome injector inductance within the short duration of the injection time.

-- Lurker

I'll check the WDS tonight but beleive what comes out of the DME is switched 12 VDC. But I beleive you are right about the injector though so perhaps the injector amplifies similar to a coil pack. But I'll check tonight though.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I'll check the WDS tonight but beleive what comes out of the DME is switched 12 VDC. But I beleive you are right about the injector though so perhaps the injector amplifies similar to a coil pack. But I'll check tonight though.

Scalbert, are you saying the wire input on the injector will be 12 VDC, but then it is converted within the injector to 100+ VDC? If that is the case, then we are fine using the controller.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Orb

You will not even see what happens it so fast and the gas partical are less than 1 micon in size so you will not see it. High speed camera does work but who has this.

Orb

I have a high speed camera. But that is not what I was refering to.

I was saying to hook up the meth controller as normally would with regular port injection. The injector signal is not to drive the meth pump but rather used as a rate indictaor to the controller. The controller increases the meth pump duty cycle proportionally to the injector duty cycle which is controllable. You would then get water spray on the windsheild if the controller is picking up the injector signal correctly.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Scalbert, are you saying the wire input on the injector will be 12 VDC, but then it is converted within the injector to 100+ VDC? If that is the case, then we are fine using the controller.

Let me check the WDS tonight though. But if it is 12 VDC out of the DME, then yes.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Let me check the WDS tonight though. But if it is 12 VDC out of the DME, then yes.

Ok, I will hold until you find the answer. The controller is looking for pulse width %, so I guess the question is would the controller pick up the signal on a DI peizo injector the same as a traditional EFI injector.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Ok, I will hold until you find the answer. The controller is looking for pulse width %, so I guess the question is would the controller pick up the signal on a DI peizo injector the same as a traditional EFI injector.

I am not sure how it will interpret the signal though even if there is a 12 VDC initial source. With the multiple injections, it may get confused.

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[Orb]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I have a high speed camera. But that is not what I was refering to.

I was saying to hook up the meth controller as normally would with regular port injection. The injector signal is not to drive the meth pump but rather used as a rate indictaor to the controller. The controller increases the meth pump duty cycle proportionally to the injector duty cycle which is controllable. You would then get water spray on the windsheild if the controller is picking up the injector signal correctly.

Okay, got it....

Orb

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I have a high speed camera. But that is not what I was refering to.

I was saying to hook up the meth controller as normally would with regular port injection. The injector signal is not to drive the meth pump but rather used as a rate indictaor to the controller. The controller increases the meth pump duty cycle proportionally to the injector duty cycle which is controllable. You would then get water spray on the windsheild if the controller is picking up the injector signal correctly.

If there is non-traditional PW though couldn't the controller misinterpret the signal?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

If there is non-traditional PW though couldn't the controller misinterpret the signal?

Or not see it at all...

but there are other ways to skin the cat.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Or not see it at all...

but there are other ways to skin the cat.

What do you have in mind? I just don't want to tap the wire if this is a failing effort. Matt Snow said that if our DI injectors used the same 12 VDC signal as traditional EFI injectors then he could work with the signal.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

What do you have in mind? I just don't want to tap the wire if this is a failing effort. Matt Snow said that if our DI injectors used the same 12 VDC signal as traditional EFI injectors then he could work with the signal.

Once we know the details of the signal, this can be presented to Snow and them them determine if it will work. However, if that doesn't fit with their controller, you could always use one of the boost control solenoid duty cycle signals which would present the information in a similar manner to the controller. Not exactly as precise as with the injector, but it would be functional. And IMO, meth injection is never precise.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Once we know the details of the signal, this can be presented to Snow and them them determine if it will work. However, if that doesn't fit with their controller, you could always use one of the boost control solenoid duty cycle signals which would present the information in a similar manner to the controller. Not exactly as precise as with the injector, but it would be functional. And IMO, meth injection is never precise.

Is the boost solenoid duty cycle 12 VDC? How would this be different then taping the boost line to progressively spray based on boost? The advantage of the injector PW is that the spray could be throttle and load sensitive.