[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Did you watch the video? Most of the comments from the drivers was not about accelerating from a stop. They were talking about being able to accelerate out of turns, handle bumps in the road and have an overall more stable platform. These were comments in the dry. In the wet the advantage became ridiculous. Traction is a concern on all vehicles, not just race cars.

Traction is a concern for all cars. But, in most situations, AWD contributes exactly zero to traction. Traction is about the relationship of the tire rubber to the road, and AWD does nothing to improve that.

What AWD buys you is more efficient delivery of power to the ground under very specific conditions. Its virtually useless, and in fact is more likely to hinder handling, in typical day-to-day driving (where the weight and increased understeer will be disadvantages).

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Traction is a concern for all cars. But, in most situations, AWD contributes exactly zero to traction. Traction is about the relationship of the tire rubber to the road, and AWD does nothing to improve that.

What AWD buys you is more efficient delivery of power to the ground under very specific conditions. Its virtually useless, and in fact is more likely to hinder handling, in typical day-to-day driving (where the weight and increased understeer will be disadvantages).

Got it..........you didn't watch the video. You are correct that traction is always based on the tire to the road. Traction is also distributed between steering, braking and acceleration. Where AWD helps you are correct - distribution. When any of those three factors affects a particular axle, AWD allows power to be distributed to the tires capable of the most traction. With RWD, you are limited to only 2 tires with a LSD and one with an open diff. This is the exact reason why corner exit can be faster with AWD. Granted they can add weight and understeer to a car, but when properly set up they have a huge advantage.

[AlpineSwift]

Originally Posted by Silent&Humble

I've ridden on my friends 328xi and seems heavy and makes noises when rolling.

2 things you need to realize with AWD.
#1 - It doesn't mean All wheel Stop.
#2 - If you hit ice or you're running all season tires on slick snow, all wheel drive will not save you. Snow tires will help but only so much.

It all comes down to good judgment in inclement weather.

Having said that, I drive a 328xi Coupe. I have Blizzaks for winter driving on some cheap Rage Koda wheels and my factory 18" staggered CSL look-a-like's on the Bridgestone run flats for spring/summer/fall which contribute to the rolling noise you speak of. Tires are the main reason for ambient road noise and can easily be fixed by getting a different tire. I drove an '05 330Ci 6spd Coupe before this and I will say that I feel much safer during the winter months with the Xdrive. The N52 puts my old M54 to shame in power delivery. It certainly isn't a 335 by any means but it does what it needs to do, performs great in the canyons/twisties, and delivers great gas mileage despite being nearly 300 pounds heavier dry than my old E46.

The question you really have to ask yourself is whether or not you want to save yourself headaches when the fluffy white stuff sticks to the road or if you really think you have the right pain killers and patience to deal with it.

Trust me, Xdrive is much better than a lot of the critics in here are saying it is. Unless I was living somewhere like Texas, Arizona, California, Florida, etc. I wouldn't even consider rear wheel drive unless it was only going to be my weekend/good weather car.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

But, in most situations, AWD contributes exactly zero to traction. Traction is about the relationship of the tire rubber to the road, and AWD does nothing to improve that.

I suggest you google "friction circle". While your arguments make it sound like you understand how traction works, it is pretty obvious with deeper analysis that you do not. If you truly understand the "friction circle", you will then understand the statement I saw either in this thread or another about how there is no inherent disadvantage ever to AWD conceptually (other than maybe for drag racers), the disadvantages are pretty much always introduced via the method of implementation.

[dj128]

I've lived in Boston for 5 years now. At most you will get about 10 days in the whole year where the snow is bad. The reason I got Xi and a separate set of winter tires is because I have to go to work every day and drive 30 miles each way. If I could afford to have a 2nd car for those bad snowy days, then I would have probably gone RWD.

Regardless, I think winter tires are still a good idea since it gets cold enough that summer tires freeze and get rock hard and you lose a little bit of handling. Blizzak winter performance tires are a nice compromise in my opinion.

[AlpineSwift]

Originally Posted by dj128

Regardless, I think winter tires are still a good idea since it gets cold enough that summer tires freeze and get rock hard and you lose a little bit of handling.

Friend in texas recently had a tire blow out on his firehawk because of the freezing temperatures.

If anything, a performance all season beats the hell out of risking it on summer tires.

[devo]

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

FYI, the xDrive Sport Package (ZSP) does NOT include a sport suspension...

335Xi coupes have basically the same suspension as the 335i coupes. Each has the same aluminum components, however, the ride on the Xi is higher as we all know. BMW claims the 335i has a sport tuned suspension, which doesn't mean anything other than it MAY have slightly different rebound and/or damping. Of course, it MAY have the same tuning and it's just clever marketing. Either way each of these car's (Xi and i) suspension's are so close that there is really nothing differentiating them other than ride height.

The Xi will walk all over an i in any inclement weather, whether it be snow and/or ice, rain, whatever. Unleash DTC and the car behaves like a rear wheel drive car. The lack of an axle differential hurts the i more.

Throw four aggresive snows on the Xi coupe and it's like a snowmobile. People that go on about how the i only loses ground from the start -in bad weather- and once moving performs as well, do not know what they are talking about. Today's contemporary AWD is infinitly better than its RWD counterpart whenever the going gets loose.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Traction is a concern for all cars. But, in most situations, AWD contributes exactly zero to traction. Traction is about the relationship of the tire rubber to the road, and AWD does nothing to improve that.

What AWD buys you is more efficient delivery of power to the ground under very specific conditions. Its virtually useless, and in fact is more likely to hinder handling, in typical day-to-day driving (where the weight and increased understeer will be disadvantages).

Why is it that the 997 turbo, GT-R, certain Lambos to name a few, have AWD then? My question is obviously a rhetorical one.

Sure AWD in and of itself does not improve traction per se, but it certainly offers more opportunities for traction. And, the opportunities are more evident when the going gets wet.

The GT-R alone proves your point wrong.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by devo

Why is it that the 997 turbo, GT-R, certain Lambos to name a few, have AWD then? My question is obviously a rhetorical one.

Sure AWD in and of itself does not improve traction per se, but it certainly offers more opportunities for traction. And, the opportunities are more evident when the going gets wet.

The GT-R alone proves your point wrong.

Riiiight. So the GT-R has AWD and that must mean that it improves traction in all cases. Of course, the fact that most Porsches, Ferraris, exotic sportscars don't means nothing.

Sorry, but that is very weak reasoning.

Also, as I've acknowledged several times, AWD is a huge advantage when you have an engine with extremely high torque (as in the case of these high performance cars) and transfer of the power to the road becomes a major issue. That is certainly not the case with the N52 engine. Its probably not even the case with the N54.

The rain issue is irrelevant. Traction in wet is all about the capacity of your tire to remove water so that there is dry road for your rubber to grip onto. AWD adds exactly zero in those circumstances.

I do think there are many cases in which AWD is extremely useful, and I think it is very sensible option for drivers in some circumstances. If I lived in the snowbelt, I'd have Xdrive too. But, the constant attempts by some of you to paint Xdrive as a magic bullet are pretty silly.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by devo

335Xi coupes have basically the same suspension as the 335i coupes. Each has the same aluminum components, however, the ride on the Xi is higher as we all know. BMW claims the 335i has a sport tuned suspension, which doesn't mean anything other than it MAY have slightly different rebound and/or damping. Of course, it MAY have the same tuning and it's just clever marketing. Either way each of these car's (Xi and i) suspension's are so close that there is really nothing differentiating them other than ride height.
.

You're basically arguing here that the ZSP and Xdrive suspensions are equivalent and that is absolutely incorrect. Anybody who has driven both can tell you that former has much less body roll, and quicker turn in, and is far more responsive over all.

You're reaching for it here.

Interestlingly, when C + D did their 335i vs. Audi comparison, they opted to use a RWD 335i in an Xdrive. If you read the article they justify their choice by noting that overall handling on the RWD ZSP is far superior.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Got it..........you didn't watch the video. You are correct that traction is always based on the tire to the road. Traction is also distributed between steering, braking and acceleration. Where AWD helps you are correct - distribution. When any of those three factors affects a particular axle, AWD allows power to be distributed to the tires capable of the most traction. With RWD, you are limited to only 2 tires with a LSD and one with an open diff. This is the exact reason why corner exit can be faster with AWD. Granted they can add weight and understeer to a car, but when properly set up they have a huge advantage.

Nope I didn't watch the video. Not going to either.

If I give you links to the dozens of objective articles written at Edmunds, C + D, CR (which are not written by insecure AWD owners trying to justify their purchase choices), will you weigh that as heavily as a YouTube video from owners who have anted up for AWD and feel the need to convince that rest of the world that it he way to go?

I'm personally in the middle on these AWD discussions. I think AWD is a great aid in some circumstances. I also think the constant attempts by you and other to portray AWD as useful in day-to-day driving are pretty silly.

If you need Xdrive to handle snow and ice, it seems like a great option to me. Its not going to do jack for the driver (like myself) who never (or very rarely) encounters ice or snow. For those drivers, the extra weight, complexity, and poor fuel economy make Xdrive an extremely poor choice. And, for that reason, out here on the West coast, you can't even find a single Xdrive E9x on any dealer's lots. I had to go to the next county just to test drive one...

I understand your point about exit from a corner. But, once again, I've acknowledged multiple times that AWD can aid when you need to get power to the road under conditions of low traction (like in a bumpy corner). That is an entirely different issue from traction in routine handling.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Riiiight. So the GT-R has AWD and that must mean that it improves traction in all cases. Of course, the fact that most Porsches, Ferraris, exotic sportscars don't means nothing.

Sorry, but that is very weak reasoning.

Also, as I've acknowledged several times, AWD is a huge advantage when you have an engine with extremely high torque (as in the case of these high performance cars) and transfer of the power to the road becomes a major issue. That is certainly not the case with the N52 engine. Its probably not even the case with the N54.

The rain issue is irrelevant. Traction in wet is all about the capacity of your tire to remove water so that there is dry road for your rubber to grip onto. AWD adds exactly zero in those circumstances.

I do think there are many cases in which AWD is extremely useful, and I think it is very sensible option for drivers in some circumstances. If I lived in the snowbelt, I'd have Xdrive too. But, the constant attempts by some of you to paint Xdrive as a magic bullet are pretty silly.

We are basically arguing the same point, for the most part. However, I disagree with your rain assessment. AWD will typically grab and bite better, given that there are more opportunities for the tires to find traction, than RWD in rainy conditions. The i has one tire looking for traction, the Xi has (obviously) four, with the power transfering to the appropriate axle at as much as a 90/10 ratio, I believe. Yes, I agree with the limits of traction but AWD does grab better because of this. Not because of some magical formula, but again because of more opportunities for traction. How many times have people complained of the RWD 3 just spinning tires in the rain. That basically does not happen with my Xi even with my sport tires on. I am not saying that it can not, but you know what I mean.

I was touting the benefits of AWD in a 3 series; Xi vs. i in snowy or wet conditions. I prefer RWD in a sports car hence my GT3. I prefer AWD in the snowbelt. If I did not live in the snowbelt. I'd opt for the 335i(S) and very well may get the iS or M as my dd anyway. Yes, RWD with aggressive dedicated snows will work fine in the snow. Not as well as Xi but good enough.

However, cars like the GT-R, turbo, LP560-4 as they are high hp/torque cars which can typically be driven easier at the limit by the masses with the aid of AWD and torque vectoring. (There is a reason why Porsche chooses to add AWD to the turbo; the GT2, well... that's another story as it is a handful.) Yes, AWD is going to help these high hp/torque cars grip better; especially the FI ones. And, you're right the 335 does not have enough power to predicate AWD. If I lived where you do, I would not even consider a 335Xi.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

You're basically arguing here that the ZSP and Xdrive suspensions are equivalent and that is absolutely incorrect. Anybody who has driven both can tell you that former has much less body roll, and quicker turn in, and is far more responsive over all.

You're reaching for it here.

Interestlingly, when C + D did their 335i vs. Audi comparison, they opted to use a RWD 335i in an Xdrive. If you read the article they justify their choice by noting that overall handling on the RWD ZSP is far superior.

The 335i may have a more sporty suspension set up, but it is far from a sports suspension, at least what it should be, imo. The Xi and i coupes DO share the same hardware, i.e. aluminum components (many people here seem to think not, but they are mistaken). The suspension may very well be more taut on the i but it's not a major difference. The ride height in the front, however, IS a very much different; way too fracking high on my car.

I have not driven the i extensively but can say that my Xi coupe feels far too loose with way too much body roll. I didn't feel that the i coupe was much better during my lengthy test drive or several later drives but admitantly I may not notice it as I don't have enough seat time in that car.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by devo

The 335i may have a more sporty suspension set up, but it is far from a sports suspension, at least what it should be, imo. The Xi and i coupes DO share the same hardware, i.e. aluminum components (many people here seem to think not, but they are mistaken). The suspension may very well be more taut on the i but it's not a major difference. The ride height in the front, however, IS a very much different; way too fracking high on my car.

I have not driven the i extensively but can say that my Xi coupe feels far too loose with way too much body roll. I didn't feel that the i coupe was much better during my lengthy test drive or several later drives but admitantly I may not notice it as I don't have enough seat time in that car.

My opinion, and I know I am not in the majority on this, is that the Xdrive is a fine suspension. I don't think it handles as well as the ZSP suspension, but I do think it handles better than about 90% of the cars on the road. And, btw, I have a the base suspension (which, on the E91 is a bit stiff to compensate for higher cargo loads) and I think the handling/ride tradeoff is idea.

So, I guess I am a bit more impressed by the sporty quality of the suspension on the AWD E9x. If I needed Xdrive, the absence of a the ZSP suspension would be a non-issue for me.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Nope I didn't watch the video. Not going to either.

If I give you links to the dozens of objective articles written at Edmunds, C + D, CR (which are not written by insecure AWD owners trying to justify their purchase choices), will you weigh that as heavily as a YouTube video from owners who have anted up for AWD and feel the need to convince that rest of the world that it he way to go?

I'm personally in the middle on these AWD discussions. I think AWD is a great aid in some circumstances. I also think the constant attempts by you and other to portray AWD as useful in day-to-day driving are pretty silly.

If you need Xdrive to handle snow and ice, it seems like a great option to me. Its not going to do jack for the driver (like myself) who never (or very rarely) encounters ice or snow. For those drivers, the extra weight, complexity, and poor fuel economy make Xdrive an extremely poor choice. And, for that reason, out here on the West coast, you can't even find a single Xdrive E9x on any dealer's lots. I had to go to the next county just to test drive one...

I understand your point about exit from a corner. But, once again, I've acknowledged multiple times that AWD can aid when you need to get power to the road under conditions of low traction (like in a bumpy corner). That is an entirely different issue from traction in routine handling.

So you won't even watch the video?

Putting on the blinders is no way to win a discussion. if you can get yourself to watch the video you will see exactly what awd did in both dry and wet conditions. Tires were irrelevant as all the cars had the same restrictions. The only major difference was the drivetrain.

[matts335]

Kilgore what are you doing in the xi subforum? Didn't you see the "No RWD Owners Allowed" sign? Go back to the I-drive section where you can continue discussing the latest bug!
Just kidding.

[mkato13]

Read all the reviews....x drive is faster and better traction plus as you add more power this becomes more important. Get the xi change the suspension if you need to and youll have a rocket ship that can handle any weather. MPG is only 1mpg less and its only roughly 150lbs heavier....thats the weight of a passanger. Unless yoru racing it on a track you wont notice the difference and being able to floor it without tire spin and just take off is well worth it

[Steven L]

Of course, From 0~100 KM, Xdrive is faster than RWD(335i)!! Furthermore, Xdrive is stable especially in the bad weather, raining or snow!!