[Imperator]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

Still trying to educate myself on reading these logs. So, if you see a 3 degree drop in the Timing CA () value during WOT it indicates a knock event?

May or may not be. We don't have KR readings to reference to. The DME might also pull timing after a particular IAT threshold is reached.

The only published timing table I've seen from the tune references load vs. RPM

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by Imperator

I'd like to see the additional links or DME logic behind the timing tables. There's gotta be more information on how advance is adjusted based on IAT and/or KR. I'm also curious if the DME stores additional timing tables, should a low-octane table exist when sustained KR is triggered.

I was doing some comparisons and I definately see a lot less timing (about 2 deg) than i should based on the single gear dyno pull. The only variable is AIT. There is no question that the 91 octane tune is commanding lower loads and consequently lower timing in the maps. A/F seems to be virtually the same but still not as much timing.

Claps logs look a lot cleaner timing wise but his ambients were about 50 Deg lower than mine so its a pointless comparison. I could really use ATR right now so atleast look at the maps.

Harry

[Rob@Cobb]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

Still trying to educate myself on reading these logs. So, if you see a 3 degree drop in the Timing CA () value during WOT it indicates a knock event?

The timing being logged on the AP, with other tools, or what the procede uses for timing adjustment is Cylinder 1 timing. The ECU keeps a timing curve for each cylinder which we can log with the tuning software (ATP or ATR). We will eventually be putting the same parameters into the AP log list in the future. As of right now the ECU will not allow us to log the standard BMW PIDs and custom requests via ATP. I am looking into why and how to solve this issue. On the Mini I can log both ways at the same time, go figure.

The ECU is overly ambitious when it comes to pulling timing. Logging stock or modified, it's not unusual to see seemingly random 3-6 degree pulls of timing on different cylinders throughout a pull. During the seemly random timing pulls there is not any excessive movement on the knock sensor voltages. When a few to all cylinders start to "talk" or pull timing in the same location, then the engine is likely working up to a detonation event. Seeing a timing hit of 3 degrees on cylinder 1 randomly really does not mean much. If it happens on every pull in the same place, then yes, the ECU might be detecting a detonation event on the horizon and is proactively pulling timing. Looking into tuning the knock thresholds is another item on my to-do list.

Actual detonation in the N54 is very noticeable both audibly and how the ECU react to the event where is seems like the car stalls for an instant. Not a happy time.

ZTUNER,

How many miles are on your car? The DI motors are very prone to carbon buildup, wastegates with sub-optimal operation, and can have boost leaks.

We recently had a 31k mile 135i with some "normal" carbon buildup in the intake ports. (I will post pictures later) It didn't want to make power like a healthy car would and was moving timing around a bit more than usual. After cleaning the intake ports the motor was much happier. Timing was exactly where we expected it to be and it made good power.

Other things to consider are the DI HPFP failing. Even though the car is still making the correct AFR, it may not be atomizing as well with lower fuel pressure therefor not taking as much heat out of the cylinder. When the HPFPs die they can can have a catastrophic failure out of nowhere, very slowly die causing problems for miles (surging, timing pulls, rough idle, semi long cranks, etc), or some are between in behavior not always displaying the same symptoms.

The tunes are not super aggressive for a healthy car as there is easily another 30 whp/wtq in a stage 1 car. We generally tune to a healthy car, then help those with issues via educating on how to alleviate the issues or give them the ability to tune around those issues with the ATP/ATR.

I'm happy to help in anyway I can.

Cheers,
Rob

[mithiral67]

thanks for the info.

On a side note, when you refer to a HPFP being catastrophic failure, do you mean the pump or the engine? I was not aware that a failing HPFP could harm the engine.

[Clap135]

Good post, so in your opinion why does the #1 cylinder randomly drop timing to begin with?

[Rob@Cobb]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

thanks for the info.

On a side note, when you refer to a HPFP being catastrophic failure, do you mean the pump or the engine? I was not aware that a failing HPFP could harm the engine.

Ops, I guess I could have been more clear about the catastrophic failure. When I say catastrophic failure, I mean the pump all out dies leaving the car stranded. So far I have not heard of a N54 being lost due to a faulty pump, although it is possible given the lean conditions I have seen the motors go through. The Mazdaspeed 3/6s can loose motors when HPFPs go bad.

Originally Posted by Clap135

Good post, so in your opinion why does the #1 cylinder randomly drop timing to begin with?

Any of the cylinders can and do have the random timing drops. An educated guess would be lower thresholds in the knock detection scheme to keep the motor alive while people run less optimal fuel day in and day out or people running devices that up boost while running stock timing. The knock detection scheme is something I'm going to dig into with the goal of aligning it with the idea people will run optimal fuels, yet keeping in mind people may still have hurt cars.

Cheers,
Rob

[BrianMN]

Clap, or whoever is going to be custom tuning: I assume you'll likely be tapping into the knock sensors to get a low hz sound signal to hook up to headphones while testing, right? If so, could you post up a DIY on the parts and pieces needed to convert that signal?

Otherwise, the dyno I've been going to simply has it's own knock sensors that I can place on the block, but it's a pretty old-school setup.

[Enicinitas]

I'm so glad the car is gone!

I'll be interested to see how Clap continues to own people at will. I will check in after surfline and sportscenter.

FWIW - the only Proceed guys that post anything useful seem to be BrianMN, themyst, and JPslick.

A lot of the others should spread cheeks and remove cabesa from nalgas.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Clap, or whoever is going to be custom tuning: I assume you'll likely be tapping into the knock sensors to get a low hz sound signal to hook up to headphones while testing, right? If so, could you post up a DIY on the parts and pieces needed to convert that signal?

Otherwise, the dyno I've been going to simply has it's own knock sensors that I can place on the block, but it's a pretty old-school setup.

Some of the best knock setups are the old school ones. Shit we used to do deto can style with brass bolts on the engine somewhere attached to echo style headphones. It was a great time.

As for encinitas - I'd love to hear the stories about made you so bitter lol. You know who I am (just maybe not this screen name). I don't advocate for any tune - I just know there are tunes in this market that are below the quality of what i would call a joke.

When ap/atr are ready for 07 i will be on my buddy's dyno so fast putting together an actual tune. That will be a very fun day.

[Enicinitas]

To use an analogy that for some reason needed to be taken off this site a few days ago...

Forums (none in particular, ahem..) are a lot like the beach. Well intentioned people at times come and try to clean up the mess that presents itself. Others, the very next day will come and enjoy the same beach that people just put effort into making clean. They will end up scattering trash of all sorts on it after they leave.

When the people that cleaned up previously come back - the would be half wit locals will say that it isn't as it seems... It isn't actually crap - "You must be nuts to think that is POOP",

The clean up crew will say why does it look and smell just like it? Why are flies so interested in it?

At which, they will be told that they don't know what crap actually smells and looks like and that they must leave and never come back...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Clap, or whoever is going to be custom tuning: I assume you'll likely be tapping into the knock sensors to get a low hz sound signal to hook up to headphones while testing, right? If so, could you post up a DIY on the parts and pieces needed to convert that signal?

Otherwise, the dyno I've been going to simply has it's own knock sensors that I can place on the block, but it's a pretty old-school setup.

I already have a contraption like that. Its a pin out version that taps the knock sensor wires and goes into jack input on the radio after some filtering....why do u think I make fun of Mike/Terrys timing responses?

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by Rob@Cobb

ZTUNER,

How many miles are on your car? The DI motors are very prone to carbon buildup, wastegates with sub-optimal operation, and can have boost leaks.

Other things to consider are the DI HPFP failing.
I'm happy to help in anyway I can.

Cheers,
Rob

Hi rob,

To answer you questions. The car has 20 k miles. 5 injectors and the hpfp was changed 600 miles ago.

Ty

Harry

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

Some of the best knock setups are the old school ones. Shit we used to do deto can style with brass bolts on the engine somewhere attached to echo style headphones. It was a great time.

When ap/atr are ready for 07 i will be on my buddy's dyno so fast putting together an actual tune. That will be a very fun day.

Haha that's exactly what we have setup at the dyno, LOL. I guess there is really beauty in simplicity.

Originally Posted by Clap135

I already have a contraption like that. Its a pin out version that taps the knock sensor wires and goes into jack input on the radio after some filtering....why do u think I make fun of Mike/Terrys timing responses?

Perhaps you could post or email me some more info on that? Also, do you have any idea how powerful (no pun intended) some videos of your contraption showing knock of various tunes would be? That is clear, definitive and indisputable proof that can put knock in simple terms for those who don't know the difference between a wrist pin and a crank bearing.

[kevinD]

how much tunability is there with the Accessport vs other options? i'm not spending 900 dollars for an accessport if all i can do are OTS maps. i want to tune the entire thing myself

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Haha that's exactly what we have setup at the dyno, LOL. I guess there is really beauty in simplicity.



Perhaps you could post or email me some more info on that? Also, do you have any idea how powerful (no pun intended) some videos of your contraption showing knock of various tunes would be? That is clear, definitive and indisputable proof that can put knock in simple terms for those who don't know the difference between a wrist pin and a crank bearing.

You think I am going to swap tune after tune and make videos of my car knocking? lol, cause I won't.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You think I am going to swap tune after tune and make videos of my car knocking? lol, cause I won't.

Well, sure why not?!?! hahaa. I'm just saying if you would have, that would have been dynamite.

But, if you give me some damn info on it I'd like to make a setup like yours...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Well, sure why not?!?! hahaa. I'm just saying if you would have, that would have been dynamite.

But, if you give me some damn info on it I'd like to make a setup like yours...

How bout I just send it to you.....?

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Clap135

How bout I just send it to you.....?

Haha if you really dont' want it that would be cool. All I really want is to know what I need to make the electromagnetic signal make a noise in my headphones....which will subsequently give me a perfect excuse to splurge for some Bose headphones.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Haha if you really dont' want it that would be cool. All I really want is to know what I need to make the electromagnetic signal make a noise in my headphones....which will subsequently give me a perfect excuse to splurge for some Bose headphones.

no idea, I don't know what went into making this thing as I am not an EE, but the company that made it for me does. I can give you their info. This simply plugs into your ipod jack and it comes out your radio. When the car acts up it pretty much sounds like some1 threa a handfull of sand accross the wall.

[MarkAngelo]

Hello Lance,

I know that I'm bringing up an old thread, but we're ready to install a COBB AP in our N54 powered E93 and I came across your helpful post.

I have experience tuning with the COBB AP on the Boosted RX-8 platform using AccessTuner Race software. However, this will be my very first time using it on a BMW platform. I noticed ATR Beta is out for the BMW, which is quite cool. But I probably will not be needing to use that because I plan to keep the BMW as stock as possible, with only a DCI installed. I want to make as much reliable power as possible with only the DCI. I'm sure your stock MAPS are already optimized for the stock setup to push as much power as possible, but is there something I can do with Accesstuner Race software that will take it to the next level reliably without more upgrades than a DCI?

Also, I am very interested in having you show me some tricks on getting good understandable graphs from log files. I always just view my log files in straight numbers, but I really want to setup a graphical reference just so I can see right away where I need to look at on the log.

Thanks again and I look forward to talking to you guys more about getting the most out of a stock DCI only upgrade N54 platform.

Best regards,

Mark

Originally Posted by COBB Tuning

Sigh...you guys that know how to drag race make me angry! The fastest I've ever gone in my Subaru is 12.2...at 122mph Very nice driving in a RWD setup sir!



We aim towards the conservative side with our OTS mapping. Direct injection engines also tend to not require a ton of ignition advance...they are efficient lil guys



I use Excel a decent amount for data log analysis and would be happy to show you a few tricks or a random example log. I'm kind of old-school and don't use any plug-ins or anything, but I'd be happy to show you the few things I know how to do well

Harry, thank you for your honest feedback and review, and most importantly, thank you for your purchase. PLEASE let us know if we can be of assistance in any way possible. I saw you speak kindly of us in another thread -- your words are very flattering as our top priority is to provide an outstanding customer service experience for as long as you're into cars that go fast, which we hope is forever

Best regards-
Lance