[acd483]

Originally Posted by DerekS

Acd483,
Sorry, but I think your assessment of the E91/325 Xi is off base. I drive a 330i/ZSP which has lot of power; I recently test drove a new 325Xi. It is not a sluggard as you suggest. Yes, it does not have quite the same punch as the 330i RWD, but that's to be expected. However, I was sufficiently impressed with the performance,handling, increased versatility, all-weather capability and (perhaps) better styling than the sedan that I ordered one. Until the sales volume for the E91 increases significantly in NA, I do not forsee a 330 Xi being added to our market, although many of us would welcome such an addition. In the meantime, there are apparently many happy E91 owners out there and you should not dismiss their choice. I for one think that the alternatives, a BMW X3 or X5, or heaven forbid, an Audi with its horse-collar grill and "VW dealer" service, are far less attractive in so many ways. Where shall I begin ? Gas mileage, handling dynamics, styling, etc. The E91 is a winner; too bad you are unable to appreciate its attributes .
And by the way, the power to weight ratio for the BMW 530 Xi and the 325 Xi are almost the same; I haven't heard anyone suggest that the 530 Xi is sluggish. Perhaps, you should test drive it.

I guess it's my feeling that BMW should either stay out of the AWD business or give us an engine option that lives up to the marque. BMWs are not known for their extra pork, awd and phoney sport packages. Give us Bimmerphiles a real wagon to look at because at this point I will bet an Audi win in the next wagon comparos.

As for your defending the e91, the facts are not with you sir:
Handling? Audi has a true sport suspension...BMW has nice wheels and seats.
Gas Mileage? Audi is 22/30, BMW; 18/27
Styling is subjective, and we don't want a 5 series or an SUV.

[dude007]

here is stats and comparasing data from edmunds:
A4 2.0 T MT6 325xi MT6
Engine 4 cyl turbo 6 cyl
HP 200 215
Torque 207 185
0-60 7.7 MT 7.1 MT Sedan
7.3 MT Touring
MT - Manual transmission

Personally, I don't like turbo chargers for their turbo lag. Didn't have experience with Audi but drove Volvo S60T. There is always time to wait before turbo kicks in. Also, 4 cylinders have very little power in low RPM range and require to rev high all the time. May be subjective opinion after tried Acura's new 4 cyl 200 hp cars.
That being said, I still believe BMW should put 330 engine in Touring or give an option to upgrade and where is economical but powerful diesel?

[dude007]

Sorry - all stats got mixed up.... I'll try it again:
Audi A4 t
Engine 4cyl turbo 200 HP, 207 Torque
0-60 7.7 Manual transmission

BMW 325XI
Engine 6 cyl 215 HP, 185 Torque
0-60 7.1 Manual Sedan, 7.3 Manual Touring

[GSRstilez]

Non-bimmer owner here...


My girlfriend and I talked about getting an AWD car. I wanted the Legacy Spec-B and she wanted the A4 2.0t (s-line) Quattro. She didn't like mine and I didn't like hers. We had to meet somewhere in the middle.

The Northeast has a fair amount of foul weather so we needed something adequate for the it. We have a Pathfinder now and I have an Integra. We decided against the 325xi/330xi after hearing about a lot of people on the forums with excellent success using snow tires on a 325i/330i. Also, hearing how the Xi was a bit less thrilling. So, in the end, we will be ordering a 330i Sport within the next 6 months. Aftermarket wheels will follow and the tires on the sport wheels will be swapped with a snow tread.

If its that bad out, nobody *should* be out. Most workplaces cancel as do schools. For our decision we really sat back and weighed it all out. Also, if its that bad out and you need to get somewhere, I'd rather risk a lesser vehicle (our Pathfinder) vs. a new BMW or Audi.

Hope this helps (coming from a non-BMW owner).

[acd483]

Originally Posted by dude007

Personally, I don't like turbo chargers for their turbo lag. Didn't have experience with Audi but drove Volvo S60T. There is always time to wait before turbo kicks in. Also, 4 cylinders have very little power in low RPM range and require to rev high all the time. May be subjective opinion after tried Acura's new 4 cyl 200 hp cars.
That being said, I still believe BMW should put 330 engine in Touring or give an option to upgrade and where is economical but powerful diesel?

I agree, the Swedes' applications of turbos are horrific; generally on big displacement 4 cylinders creating lots of lag and torque steer. I have to say, the fact that this 2.0T FSI has 22lbs. more torque than the BMW 6 cyl. and more power at less RPM (than the Bimmer) is very compelling. This engine really shines against other turbos. It's hard to justify spending $40K on a 4 cylinder, but Audi's managed to do it. Plus the gas mileage is great.

[StewtheBassman]

The xi isn't a "dog". It's a great balance of power, safety, xDrive works VERY well on sketchy surfaces, and the Step in Manual format works almost as well as a manual.
I'm not a Sunday track racer. I need a reliable high mileage luxury commuter that'll keep me out of trouble when the weather goes bad, and that won't break me at the bank. I also want a car that will go fast and be fun to drive when I want to drive like a teenager.
The xi does all that.

I didn't try Audi. I traded out of a Subaru Legacy Turbo, so I know what a 250hp turbo feels like.

The xi may be a dog next to an STi or an EVO or even a 330i or any other higher priced car with a more powerful engine.

A dog? No. My 2000 Saab 9-3 wans't a dog, with only 165hp, but the torque steer was a drag.

Let's agree that a Toyota Yaris is a dog, or a Ford Windstar. The BMW 325xi is more than capable of everything I and many people would ask from it.

[harbour456]

The xi isn't a "dog". It's a great balance of power, safety, xDrive works VERY well on sketchy surfaces, and the Step in Manual format works almost as well as a manual.
I'm not a Sunday track racer. I need a reliable high mileage luxury commuter that'll keep me out of trouble when the weather goes bad, and that won't break me at the bank. I also want a car that will go fast and be fun to drive when I want to drive like a teenager.
The xi does all that.

I didn't try Audi. I traded out of a Subaru Legacy Turbo, so I know what a 250hp turbo feels like.

The xi may be a dog next to an STi or an EVO or even a 330i or any other higher priced car with a more powerful engine.

A dog? No. My 2000 Saab 9-3 wans't a dog, with only 165hp, but the torque steer was a drag.

Let's agree that a Toyota Yaris is a dog, or a Ford Windstar. The BMW 325xi is more than capable of everything I and many people would ask from it

Well said. Having just gone from a modified Subaru WRX which WAS faster then my new 330i, I would have to say that people's idea of a 'dog' has become somewhat distorted. Any BMW has more then enough capability to get almost any of us into a heck of a lot of trouble.

Cheers

[DerekS]

Originally Posted by acd483

I guess it's my feeling that BMW should either stay out of the AWD business or give us an engine option that lives up to the marque. BMWs are not known for their extra pork, awd and phoney sport packages. Give us Bimmerphiles a real wagon to look at because at this point I will bet an Audi win in the next wagon comparos.

As for your defending the e91, the facts are not with you sir:
Handling? Audi has a true sport suspension...BMW has nice wheels and seats.
Gas Mileage? Audi is 22/30, BMW; 18/27
Styling is subjective, and we don't want a 5 series or an SUV.

May I respectfully suggest that you should read some of the recent comparos between BMW and Audi, eg. Car and Driver, Oct.'05, and Edmunds.com. Every recent comparision that I have read says that the BMW model tested outhandles the Audi by a substantial margin. There is no secret to why this is so; Audi is, after all, a front wheel drive, nose heavy car, adapted to AWD in the Quattro variant. As far as gas mileage is concerned in the real world, BMW figures are far closer to the EPA figures than Audis, which have a reputation for lousy gas mileage and chewing through tires at a rapid rate.
These are just two of the many reasons why Audi has a greater rate of depreciation than BMW.
There is nothing phony about the 325 Xi sport package; every prospective purchaser knows that it does not include a lowered sport suspension. This is an benefit for most purchasers who want the extra clearance (+ 0.8"0) compared to a similarly equipped 325/ZSP or 330i/ZSP. Also, considering that many buyers of the Xi will use their vehicles on country roads, the firm ride and lowered suspension makes no sense. But, if this is what you seek, then perhaps, you should be buying an Audi wagon. If you want to continue to unjustifiably malign the BMW product, then maybe you are in the wrong forum. There must a cyber-home for Audi fans.

[StewtheBassman]

Originally Posted by DerekS

May I respectfully suggest that you should read some of the recent comparos between BMW and Audi, eg. Car and Driver, Oct.'05, and Edmunds.com. Every recent comparision that I have read says that the BMW model tested outhandles the Audi by a substantial margin. There is no secret to why this is so; Audi is, after all, a front wheel drive, nose heavy car, adapted to AWD in the Quattro variant. As far as gas mileage is concerned in the real world, BMW figures are far closer to the EPA figures than Audis, which have a reputation for lousy gas mileage and chewing through tires at a rapid rate.
These are just two of the many reasons why Audi has a greater rate of depreciation than BMW.
There is nothing phony about the 325 Xi sport package; every prospective purchaser knows that it does not include a lowered sport suspension. This is an benefit for most purchasers who want the extra clearance (+ 0.8"0) compared to a similarly equipped 325/ZSP or 330i/ZSP. Also, considering that many buyers of the Xi will use their vehicles on country roads, the firm ride and lowered suspension makes no sense. But, if this is what you seek, then perhaps, you should be buying an Audi wagon. If you want to continue to unjustifiably malign the BMW product, then maybe you are in the wrong forum. There must a cyber-home for Audi fans.

Apparently the xi package suspension is stiffer anyway.

[DerekS]

Compared to the 330i/ZSP that I currently drive , the E91 has a much more compliant suspension over rough roads.
On the performance issue, I have looked at a several other current BMW models (all with steptronic) to compare power/weight ratios :
330 Ci Convert 16.5 lbs./hp
325 Xi T 17.6 " "
325 Ci Convert 19.7 " "
X3/3.0 18.07 " "
X5/3.0 20.87 " "

From the stats shown on the BMWNA site, the E91 0-60mph performance is very close to that of the 330 Ci, both approx.7.5 secs. Most BMW fans are aware that BMW performance claims are VERY conservative. In addition, some of you will be aware of the fact that BMW horsepower ratings are also VERY conservative. Hence, BMW always performs better in the automotive press reports than as claimed by BMW.
The similarity in acceleration between the 330 Ci convert and the 325 XiT does not surprise me. They are nearly the same weight and horsepower (225hp vs 215hp), but the new 6 speed steptronic in the 325 XiT feels faster off the mark when used in the DS/manual mode compared to the older generation 5 speed trans in the 330 Ci. I am familiar with this transmission since my wife drives an 04' 330 Ci.
I hope that the above information will help send the "dog" home to rest.

[acd483]

Originally Posted by DerekS

May I respectfully suggest that you should read some of the recent comparos between BMW and Audi, eg. Car and Driver, Oct.'05, and Edmunds.com. Every recent comparision that I have read says that the BMW model tested outhandles the Audi by a substantial margin. There is no secret to why this is so; Audi is, after all, a front wheel drive, nose heavy car, adapted to AWD in the Quattro variant. As far as gas mileage is concerned in the real world, BMW figures are far closer to the EPA figures than Audis, which have a reputation for lousy gas mileage and chewing through tires at a rapid rate.
These are just two of the many reasons why Audi has a greater rate of depreciation than BMW.
There is nothing phony about the 325 Xi sport package; every prospective purchaser knows that it does not include a lowered sport suspension. This is an benefit for most purchasers who want the extra clearance (+ 0.8"0) compared to a similarly equipped 325/ZSP or 330i/ZSP. Also, considering that many buyers of the Xi will use their vehicles on country roads, the firm ride and lowered suspension makes no sense. But, if this is what you seek, then perhaps, you should be buying an Audi wagon. If you want to continue to unjustifiably malign the BMW product, then maybe you are in the wrong forum. There must a cyber-home for Audi fans.

Find me the comparo between the 325xi and the A4 2.0T Quattro. I'm not arguing the RWD BMW is lesser than the FWD or AWD Audi. It's a much better drive. I prefer RWD to FWD/AWD any day. I'm also not some Audiphile looking to stir up trouble. Read my other posts. I started the e91 picture post based on my excitement on the car.

I can guarantee you the Audi will get better gas mileage, won't eat through tires (talk about maintenance/cost heavy run-flats on the bimmer).

As for your attempt to justify the lack of a sport suspension, just ask all the Audi owners who want the best handling AWD car one can buy in its class. If BMW is the ultimate driving machine...where's the beef?

[acd483]

Originally Posted by DerekS

Compared to the 330i/ZSP that I currently drive , the E91 has a much more compliant suspension over rough roads.
On the performance issue, I have looked at a several other current BMW models (all with steptronic) to compare power/weight ratios :
330 Ci Convert 16.5 lbs./hp
325 Xi T 17.6 " "
325 Ci Convert 19.7 " "
X3/3.0 18.07 " "
X5/3.0 20.87 " "

From the stats shown on the BMWNA site, the E91 0-60mph performance is very close to that of the 330 Ci, both approx.7.5 secs. Most BMW fans are aware that BMW performance claims are VERY conservative. In addition, some of you will be aware of the fact that BMW horsepower ratings are also VERY conservative. Hence, BMW always performs better in the automotive press reports than as claimed by BMW.
The similarity in acceleration between the 330 Ci convert and the 325 XiT does not surprise me. They are nearly the same weight and horsepower (225hp vs 215hp), but the new 6 speed steptronic in the 325 XiT feels faster off the mark when used in the DS/manual mode compared to the older generation 5 speed trans in the 330 Ci. I am familiar with this transmission since my wife drives an 04' 330 Ci.
I hope that the above information will help send the "dog" home to rest.

The only response I have is that your stats aren't translating into real world. And what's the comparison between the current "XI" and the current "I" models?

[acd483]

Let me sum up:

330it>A4 2.0TQ Avant>325xit

[DesiInCT]

Originally Posted by GSRstilez

Non-bimmer owner here...


My girlfriend and I talked about getting an AWD car. I wanted the Legacy Spec-B and she wanted the A4 2.0t (s-line) Quattro. She didn't like mine and I didn't like hers. We had to meet somewhere in the middle.

The Northeast has a fair amount of foul weather so we needed something adequate for the it. We have a Pathfinder now and I have an Integra. We decided against the 325xi/330xi after hearing about a lot of people on the forums with excellent success using snow tires on a 325i/330i. Also, hearing how the Xi was a bit less thrilling. So, in the end, we will be ordering a 330i Sport within the next 6 months. Aftermarket wheels will follow and the tires on the sport wheels will be swapped with a snow tread.

If its that bad out, nobody *should* be out. Most workplaces cancel as do schools. For our decision we really sat back and weighed it all out. Also, if its that bad out and you need to get somewhere, I'd rather risk a lesser vehicle (our Pathfinder) vs. a new BMW or Audi.

Hope this helps (coming from a non-BMW owner).

Exactly our thoughts, just replace girlfriend with wife and Pathfinder with ML320.

I changed them to Dunlop Winter Sport M3 (again by reading multiple threads on this forum) just before we got the first snow and being from around the same area, let me assure you that its been working out fine for us. Good Call!

[stressdoc]

I have driven both, and IMO, 325xiT>A4 2.0TQ Avant. Not by much, both excellent cars. That said, BMW NA does not have an answer for the S4 Avant. But that is 50k+.

[ed328ci]

Originally Posted by StewtheBassman

Apparently the xi package suspension is stiffer anyway.

But has a shorter travel, while it may not be notice by 95% of the buyers, for those who will take the car to 8/10 or more, it's an issue.

The Xi package for BMW is not a performance enhancement, but rather, a marketing and safety feature. Nothing wrong with that. In contrast, Audi, and Subaru, sell their AWD systems as performance enhancements. When BMW state the "Ultimate Driving Machine", they are talking about their RWD models. And no, none of the 3 Series can be considered as a "dog".

Ed

[acd483]

Originally Posted by ed328ci

When BMW state the "Ultimate Driving Machine", they are talking about their RWD models. And no, none of the 3 Series can be considered as a "dog".

Ed

Nice try on the line-item veto Ed...but I've yet to see that disclaimer at the bottom of their advertisements.

BMW has been successful at doing what it does best (RWD, great handling, great power, great design). The slippery slope started with Bangle.

[ed328ci]

Originally Posted by acd483

Nice try on the line-item veto Ed...but I've yet to see that disclaimer at the bottom of their advertisements...

Give it up. No one else here thinks the 325iXT is a dog. I happen to like Audi as well. There is no need to put down one vehicle in an effort to make the other one better.

BTW, on a performance basis, both the 325iXT and B7 A4 Avant (2.0 or 3.2) are slow when compared to the cheaper Subaru Legacy GT Wagon.

[snapper]

I'm new here... also looking at a Bimmer i or xi, but in sedan and 330 flavor.

acd483, looks like you've done your homework and I would vote with you on the A4 for all the same reasons. I was looking at the E46xi 5 years ago and was sorely disappointed that BMW significantly compromised it's AWD model with: raised ride height, no sport suspension, and compromise wheel/tire choices. That made it very easy for me to choose Audi's B5 S4, which was about the same price, not to mention a much better engine and 6th speed. The new E90xi is, again, disappointing to me with another cosmetic "sport package," however, I do see you can least order the new xi with the "18 wheels at a fair price.

Audi does do a great job with its turbo engines... no lag and designed to deliver power in a very linear fashion starting at 1500rpm continuing all the way through redline. BMW has a much more peaky engine - weak at the low rpms, but it builds steam and screams better in the higher revs. I just tested a 330xi and found that still be the case. I'm not surprised that performance stats between the two cars would be close.... it's just that in the real world, Audi's better low-end torque *feels* better and is easier to drive. I think the BMW is ultimately just as fast but you probably need to work more to keep it on boil.... but, of course, that could also be half the fun of owning the Bimmer.

While I really do love my S4, after 5 years, I just want to try something new and am looking for the best handling 4 door. Living in NE, I do like having AWD, but have come to realize that it may not be worth the performance penalty the other 350 days in a year (also as the 2 other CT "i" owners posted above). I also believe the best handling car will ultimately be a Bimmer w/[real]SP in RWD but if you really need AWD, I'd tip my hat to an Audi since you can a real SP (and because I understand Audi's Torsen AWD system is better).

Finally, between my wife and I, since 1999, we've owned 2 BMW and 2 Audi's from new and there's been no real difference between the two brands in terms problems, service and reliability. Good luck shopping.

[DerekS]

acd483,
Sir, you began your argument with the following statement : "I see a lot (of 325XiT) driving around and can't figure it out."
From reading your subsequent posts, it is clear to me that no amount of contrary evidence to your claims, nor testimonials, nor brisk sales of 325XiT is going to alter your negative opinion of the 325XiT.
In short, you said that "the Xi feels like a pig." You also said that "I'm lamenting the lack of RWD and/or a bigger engine."
You, like many of your fellow Americans, are apparently obsessed with horsepower. It is therefore not surprising that the USA has become dependent upon Middle East oil ( and Canadian too) to fuel so many ravenous engines. I guess those of us who have purchased 325XiT feel that the horsepower is adequate, the handling dynamics and versatility are superb and the fuel economy is reasonable.
In making your choice, you obviously have many vehicles to choose from.
May I suggest two:
1. purchase a reasonably fuel efficient 325 XiT
or
2. run down to your nearest Chrysler dealer and buy a Dodge Magnum with the largest V8 engine.

Finally, while you are making up your mind, why don't we call a time out on this silly argument.
Cheers !!

[StewtheBassman]

Originally Posted by ed328ci

But has a shorter travel, while it may not be notice by 95% of the buyers, for those who will take the car to 8/10 or more, it's an issue.

The Xi package for BMW is not a performance enhancement, but rather, a marketing and safety feature. Nothing wrong with that. In contrast, Audi, and Subaru, sell their AWD systems as performance enhancements. When BMW state the "Ultimate Driving Machine", they are talking about their RWD models. And no, none of the 3 Series can be considered as a "dog".

Ed

Stop with AWD as "marketing". Come visit me out herre when things are nasty, and anytime up to two weeks after the storm, after the melt, then after the freeze, then during the freezing rain. Bring your sissy RWD with Blizzaks or whatever, and we'll see who does better lap times on a 50km loop.

It isn't marketing. When traction is sketchy, Xdrive is BETTER than RWD or FWD.

Other than that, the RWD is a lighter car, but most drivers can't tell the difference.

[ed328ci]

Originally Posted by StewtheBassman

Stop with AWD as "marketing". Come visit me out herre when things are nasty, and anytime up to two weeks after the storm, after the melt, then after the freeze, then during the freezing rain. Bring your sissy RWD with Blizzaks or whatever, and we'll see who does better lap times on a 50km loop...

Please read my post. I stated "marketing" and "safety". And no, I will not be bringing my sissy RWD across to the other side of the country.

Ed