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      03-02-2010, 02:09 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris330D View Post
The OP is right, you do take a risk switching the aids off.
No this is wrong. You only take a risk if you disable traction control and THEN drive inappropriately.
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      03-02-2010, 02:29 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by NFS View Post
No this is wrong. You only take a risk if you disable traction control and THEN drive inappropriately.
Correct!

It is up to the driver to drive appropriately at all times.

No amount of driver aids will save a car from crashing if the person drives it irresponsibly.

To coin a phrase "you cannot escape the laws of physics!"
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      03-02-2010, 02:42 AM   #91
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Sorry guys this is not my point. Clearly the driver has responsibility, what I am querying is the macho posturing surrounding driving with the aids off. Taken to a logical conclusion, why bother with a seatbelt (apart from being illegal). I am all for the driver having fun, in the right place and the right time but what shouldn't be discounted is that these aids can stop you parking in a hedge
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      03-02-2010, 02:56 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFS View Post
People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Peer pressure is not an excuse.
Hurrah for common sense!!

No one picked up when I said this, but this is the WHOLE point.

If you crash and kill people - it's your OWN FAULT, not the cars, not the weather, not the 'adverse camber' but YOURS and YOURS only!

I know people don't like to be responsible for anything these days - so why not just use the safety aids and blame the car instead when it goes wrong.

Learn what the aids really do - not just assume they are sme kind of magic helper that can defy physics.

Then use the car sometimes, when appropriate, with them REDUCED or OFF to familiarise yourself and try and enjoy the experience.


Last edited by doughboy; 03-02-2010 at 03:19 AM..
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      03-02-2010, 03:04 AM   #93
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What would be really interesting

but obviously impossible to know is how many times your electronics have actually saved your bacon.

I like to drive rapidly, while keeping my license, so probably at 7/10ths. On a fair number of occassions I've felt the back end get slightly 'loose' when exiting a bend...nothing radical and nothing that even my human driving 'monitor' noticed. However my built-in electronic service monitor is telling me that my front brakes need service in 40,000 miles and my back brakes in 9000, indicating that they're working fairly hard at maintaining traction, even at 7/10th

Also worth remembering, what would feel dramatically quick and uncomfortable for passengers in an average family saloon feels like a Sunday cruise in a 3 series, yet the same laws of physics apply. Its just that the 3 series has far higher limits, so you can drive a lot faster. comfortably. When it does let go however, its typically going a lot quicker.

And one thing I know for certain... the 'at' and 'over the limit' handling of a standard 3 series is far more difficult to control than an 'M' car. For example, the transition from neutral to oversteer in a std. 3 series is far more abrubt than in an M3 for example

Finally, I think a lot of people confuse power sliding with loosing the back end....they are very different

In powersliding you gradually exceed the available traction such that the car slowly begins to oversteer and the driver to unwind lock and grin stupidly.

In cases where the back end suddenly lets go, its usually the result of a rapid change in road surface from high to low grip. In this case, the driver finds him/herself suddenly applying far more power than the immediate conditions allow, breaking traction and causing the back end snaps around, pretty much instantly. But what feels like instantly to the driver, is actually quite a few milliseconds in which the car's electronics have time to sample wheel rotation dozens of times and adjust power, torque and brakes to restore traction and prevent a massive slide.

If you go back a few years to the original 535i, which had no electronic gadgetary, huge numbers were written off. Given that a modern 335 has almost as much power as a 1980 Ferrari, the same would probably happen today without some electronic driver skill 'enhancements' .

Last edited by SteveC; 03-02-2010 at 03:10 AM..
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      03-02-2010, 03:24 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris330D View Post
Sorry guys this is not my point. Clearly the driver has responsibility, what I am querying is the macho posturing surrounding driving with the aids off. Taken to a logical conclusion, why bother with a seatbelt (apart from being illegal). I am all for the driver having fun, in the right place and the right time but what shouldn't be discounted is that these aids can stop you parking in a hedge
Totally agree with your comment, I've read this type of thread on many forums and except for a couple of genuine threads on whether DTC and DSC are best 'off' for snow, most have the macho undertone. It is here as well, just reread some of the early comments, it is not just what is said, but the way things are said.

I'll be even more controversial... if we really are finding our cars restricted by DTC and DSC then I do believe for the majority of drivers, even as BMW drivers, we should be looking at out driving style. Perhaps we are already driving too aggressively, or even dangerously, for... the PUBLIC HIGHWAY.

I've said before in this thread "on the track do what you like", but when you use the public highway and find DSC restricts your freedom to drive the car think again, maybe you are an accident waiting to happen.

BTW, all cars will be fitted with some form of ESC by 2014 as legistalion will apply to all cars and vans.

With feedoms come responsibilities, the more we exercise them the greater the responsibility.

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      03-02-2010, 03:25 AM   #95
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Agree, but DSC is too sensitive for anything other than steady in-traffic progress. FACT.

The fact the turning on DTC makes such a difference only goes to shows that full DSC is basically 'saving your bacon' on almost every bend and everytime you accelerate even remotely briskly.

Long before the yellow light is blinking in fact it's working away massaging your ego (which I think may be its main purpose in fact)
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      03-02-2010, 03:40 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I'll be even more controversial... if we really are finding our cars restricted by DTC and DSC then I do believe for the majority of drivers, even as BMW drivers, we should be looking at out driving style. Perhaps we are already driving too aggressively, or even dangerously, for... the PUBLIC HIGHWAY.
In many cases this may well be right and I support the general principle of it. Regardless of safety systems we are in full control of our cars and are totally responsible for our actions. That said, DSC may be clever, but it doesn't 'know' your intention for a given manouvre.

As an example, when leaving a bend, it's appropriate to gradually increase acceleration. If conditions are clear, visibility good etc there is nothing dangerous about doing this enthusiastically, within the speed limits. But .. DSC doesn't understand that you are pulling out of a bend and if it senses any wheel spin it will cut the engine power. So the car bogs down.

With DTC engaged you would begin to feel (in complete safety) the tyres scrabbling for grip as press down on the throttle. This is good information. It helps explain how the laws of physics act on the car and all drivers would benefit from understanding this more. There is nothing dangerous or macho in this, it's actually a good way to become a safer driver.

I'd actually turn your statement around. If you are driving in such a way that you are routinely relying on DSC to get you out of trouble, then you are almost certainly driving dangerously and innapropriately.

It's back to the argument that compulsary seatbelt use, airbags etc has actually led to a false feeling of safety among drivers, resulting in INCREASED traffic speeds.
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      03-02-2010, 03:45 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Agree, but DSC is too sensitive for anything other than steady in-traffic progress. FACT.

The fact the turning on DTC makes such a difference only goes to shows that full DSC is basically 'saving your bacon' on almost every bend and everytime you accelerate even remotely briskly.

Long before the yellow light is blinking in fact it's working away massaging your ego (which I think may be its main purpose in fact)
I know this broadens out the issues but isn't one of the problems, we can now have very powerful cars (for road use) packaged into the average family transport. Most drivers, IMO, are not prepared or equipped for just getting at the wheel and driving. Perhaps driver training should be reviewed, a great help to taking personal responsibility.

I mentioned earlier the E21 E30 models that frequently ended in the hedge backwards, the power outputs by today's cars are typicaly much higher. Those old chassis would be lethal for virtually every driver, at today's bhp outputs, so safety aids/systems have to be an integral part of the package to save many users from severe issues. Wonder what the insurance risks would be if our performance cars were without safety systems?

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      03-02-2010, 05:42 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I know this broadens out the issues but isn't one of the problems, we can now have very powerful cars (for road use) packaged into the average family transport. Most drivers, IMO, are not prepared or equipped for just getting at the wheel and driving. Perhaps driver training should be reviewed, a great help to taking personal responsibility.

I mentioned earlier the E21 E30 models that frequently ended in the hedge backwards, the power outputs by today's cars are typicaly much higher. Those old chassis would be lethal for virtually every driver, at today's bhp outputs, so safety aids/systems have to be an integral part of the package to save many users from severe issues. Wonder what the insurance risks would be if our performance cars were without safety systems?

HighlandPete
I agree with some of your comments. But, having driven my car in DTC mode and with DSC off altogether, I realise just how capable the chassis is and how grippy the tyres are. A 335i without DSC would not be 'lethal for virtually every driver'. It would be perfectly docile and easy to live with.

The addition of DSC makes it safer, because it protects drivers who make mistakes and step outside of their ability. The risk though is that it also encourages people to drive beyond their limits and worse still stops them developing good judgement about what is sensible and appropriate.

I've driven caterhams with 300hp/tonne and no safety systems. There is absolutely nothing about them that is dangerous.
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      03-02-2010, 05:44 AM   #99
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I agree entirely that the massive outputs of todays cars have only been allowable in mass produced cases when reined in by electronic limiters (I don't like calling them safety aids)

3,4,500bhp is now avaiable for very little money and in RWD would be real widow makers for sure without ESP etc.

BMW engineers have very kindly acknowledged that they need 2 levels of safety net (not including OFF) and have IMO judged the DTC just right, but they have to lie and pretend that DTC is for snow which is plainly H&S / Marketing led BS.

As long as they have a Part Off / All Off button, I'm happy that I can excercise my choice and it be my responsibility too. I could still drive like a twat with DSC on and would this then be OK?

Be warned, the next step from the safety facists will be non-switchable systems for sure along with complusory black boxes, enjoy it while it lasts - mark my words.
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      03-02-2010, 06:01 AM   #100
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It'll all end up like in Minority Report where the cars drive themselves.
All joking aside, this is where it is all heading.
Active cruise control anyone?
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      03-02-2010, 06:07 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFS View Post
The addition of DSC makes it safer, because it protects drivers who make mistakes and step outside of their ability. The risk though is that it also encourages people to drive beyond their limits and worse still stops them developing good judgement about what is sensible and appropriate.
Then why the surprise when some have raised their voices over the macho "go for it comments" to add a little caution ?

No-one is contesting the responsibility of the driver regardless of any fitted driving aids - but as sure as eggs is eggs there ARE some (as you just described), who listen to all the swagger, then switch off the traction and/or stability controls and end up getting a scare or in trouble.

It may not happen, but it will considerably lessen that eventuality if they are aware that switching OFF the controls, while letting you be more in control of the car, also brings its own dangers. It shouldn't be looked on as "un-cool" to quietly point that out. The OP raised some concerns he had and was mobbed.

To many this is seen as a direct slight on their driving abilities and raises their hackles.

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      03-02-2010, 06:22 AM   #102
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Perhaps I come from a different perspective, I just don't see the driving skills and abilities that give me confidence that 'many' drivers are safe to start pushing cars past what the electronics will allow.

I totally agree that driving hard with the 'aids' still active is not a good idea either. Relying on the electronics is as bad way to test a car's abilities. I've no issue with learning what a particular car does, just how we do that concerns me.

To be honest I just despair at what I see happening on the roads, I cringe in some way, virtually every time I'm out these days. OK, it is not always pushing limits of cars or a drivers ability, just the set up for accident potential. I was one car behind a stupid head on overtake just last Saturday and witnessed the car in front of me not knowing where to go when a car was heading straight for him. Whatever the skill level of either the Impreza driver (the guilty one) or the family car driver, I was ready to go off the road.

I sense we are often very close to things going wrong. I see accident sites up here where I just can't understand what or why something went wrong. We have some superb 'driving' roads, but the accident rate is high and often fatal, so something is seriously wrong with 'perceived' driver ability.

Wait until black box units control the speed we drive (particularly in restricted zones)... electronic technologies also have the ability to control acceleration levels and stop the car as well, at the command of external signals.

HighlandPete

Last edited by HighlandPete; 03-02-2010 at 06:27 AM..
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      03-02-2010, 06:33 AM   #103
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I don't recall any macho posturing at all TBH?

The comments have mostly been about taking responsibilty for you own actions, if that is Macho then god help us all.

The mocking of the OP was not about being 'macho' it was about an apparent lack of understanding of the systems and a rather naive view of the owners manual description.

Slightly OTT perhaps, but no worse than Pub banter.
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      03-02-2010, 06:38 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Wait until black box units control the speed we drive (particularly in restricted zones)... electronic technologies also have the ability to control acceleration levels and stop the car as well, at the command of external signals.

HighlandPete
This would be great IMO, you could just drive round with your foot on the floor, 30mph everywhere, past the school, round the roundabout whatever - all legal as the computer said so.

They take the control, they take the responsibility - Then just blame the system when you run over all those school kids.


There will always be exemptions to these systems, older car, low volume, specials etc, so it looks like thats what we'll have to own in a few years....
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      03-02-2010, 06:56 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
Then why the surprise when some have raised their voices over the macho "go for it comments" to add a little caution ?
Macho comments? Are you sure? This is an enthusiasts forum for enthusiasts. My comments re DTC that the OP quoted in his first post were made, in context, to a member who was enthused at his discovery that if he selected DS on his auto box, he found an additional level of enjoyment from his car.

I suggested that for a further level of enjoyment to activate DTC. Not as a macho comment but to share the knowledge of this function. Fair enough, I then didn't caveat this with a H&S warning about what might happen should he choose to drive like a lunatic - perhaps I should have done. But really, the DTC system doesn't turn the car into an unwieldy machine that can only be handled by professional drivers - it simply reduces the computers reaction to SLIGHT loss of traction, which IMO allows a greater degree of driver enjoyment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
To be honest I just despair at what I see happening on the roads, I cringe in some way, virtually every time I'm out these days. OK, it is not always pushing limits of cars or a drivers ability, just the set up for accident potential. I was one car behind a stupid head on overtake just last Saturday and witnessed the car in front of me not knowing where to go when a car was heading straight for him. Whatever the skill level of either the Impreza driver (the guilty one) or the family car driver, I was ready to go off the road.
This is just BAD/STUPID/DANGEROUS driving. Traction systems on or off - the laws of physics still apply and dangerous driving of course dramatically increases the associated risks. No one on here is condoning bad or dangerous driving - why the hell would we do that?

Activating DTC does not equate to dangerous driving. Just as selecting DS on the autobox doesn't. But it does allow an opportunity to enhance the performance and enjoyment of the car.

I don't believe we are awash with members claiming to be advanced or great drivers. We are just sharing our enthusiasm, knowledge and enjoyment for our cars which we are passionate about.
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      03-02-2010, 07:04 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themetz View Post
I don't believe we are awash with members claiming to be advanced or great drivers. We are just sharing our enthusiasm, knowledge and enjoyment for our cars which we are passionate about.
You sactimonious Macho Twat

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      03-02-2010, 07:05 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
You sactimonious Macho Twat

none taken
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      03-02-2010, 07:38 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themetz View Post
I suggested that for a further level of enjoyment to activate DTC. Not as a macho comment but to share the knowledge of this function. Fair enough, I then didn't caveat this with a H&S warning about what might happen should he choose to drive like a lunatic - perhaps I should have done. But really, the DTC system doesn't turn the car into an unwieldy machine that can only be handled by professional drivers - it simply reduces the computers reaction to SLIGHT loss of traction, which IMO allows a greater degree of driver enjoyment.
I agree, and I also said there were many good answers that explained rather than mocked.

When have I ever said "don't do it" ?

This level of debate (flaming the OP) wouldn't have occured if it wasn't directly linked to driving ability. "Traction control off", whether either of us like it or not, is related to that. It is perceived by some to show you can handle your car well enough without any help. To some, that is seen as important - or, it is important to them that they don't say I never switch it off. Anybody think that really doesn't exist ?

If you have seen the many threads in the past, there has been genuine confusion as to what actually happens with the DTC/DSC enabled/disabled.

This thread has brought up and, in the end, discussed the pros and cons of a lot of those issues. Anyone reading it from start to finish will be better informed. Which is much better than simply telling the OP he's an idiot.

D.
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      03-02-2010, 08:40 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
If you have seen the many threads in the past, there has been genuine confusion as to what actually happens with the DTC/DSC enabled/disabled.

This thread has brought up and, in the end, discussed the pros and cons of a lot of those issues. Anyone reading it from start to finish will be better informed. Which is much better than simply telling the OP he's an idiot.

D.
The very reason I've joined in the 'debate'. It is so easy to just have a thought discussed in isolation, to the rest of a broad subject. Trouble is we get used to 'bites' and that isn't good for rational decisions.

Going even further off topic, take for example the manual vs. auto, or diesel vs. petrol debates we have on forums, so easy just to take a small, often blinkered view and pronounce "autos are rubbish" or "petrol is the only fuel for enthusiasts", or whatever.

Take the autobox, when I've suggested in other discussions you need to "learn to drive an auto" what negative reactions that causes. But it is so true, how many who jump in an auto realise you have more control than you first think. Many don't even understand that you can initiate engine braking, or why a gear gets held on a slope, or why a box holds a lower gear when you release the throttle too fast, etc. etc.

For some, something like DSC is declared a pain, or an intrusion, because someone else says it is, the 'enthusiast' who knows. So easy for a driver to feel inadequate, because they don't find it so. I'm concerned as it may mean some become risk takers, just to prove their worth.

BTW, I like testing opinion, same as I like mine challenged. We can all learn.

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      03-02-2010, 08:45 AM   #110
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I suppose one could suggest that only those with extreme views need post...

Me for example, well as I have tried to hint at before, I know am not a bad driver. On the other hand I almost entirely agree with every point here on both sides..

I can't deny I enjoy my car more with DTC engaged, but I can also state I always use full TCS whenever it is raining or I am not concentrating 100% on progressing rapidly.

Also, though I am occasionally a cock and often drive like one, the argument that says 'your on a road you bellend' is no less valid to me, just that I can't say I always heed every warning.

So I suppose everything I am saying in this post is pointless because it is neither here nor there! Hence maybe I shouldn't have posted at all?

Well I guess basically what I am saying in summary is that 90% of posts on a thread like this will be strongly aligned one way or the other - or else what is the point!

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