[Joshboody]

I was curious about thoughts on low cost performance. I have a stock 335i and deciding upgrade directions. The standard seems to be FMIC, DP, tuning, intake, maybe meth... totaling around $3000 or more. I'm thinking about tune and meth, maybe <$1000. Using a low cost tune like JBplus (may not have enough boost), or JB2 to increase boost, and meth to optimize IAT and timing.

- What are the downside of high boost with stock exhaust. What's the max boost with stock exhaust? I would like to stay fairly conservative
- no need for FMIC with meth right?
- aftermarket intake really doesn't matter until higher boost targets??
- best trigger for meth? boost would be easiest i would think, and anything else would require different electronics then what's available. Tunner for meth would be best: procede only option currently?

biggest problem would be if the meth stops... no fail safe. And with higher IATs, the DME would raise boost even further right.

Easy way to confirm if meth is working... IAT gauge, flow gauge

Any thoughts would be great.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

If you're looking for bargain performance here is my suggestion:

JB3 Pin Out $349
Dual cone intake add on $100
BMS 250psi trunk mount meth kit $355

Then update the JB3 to 2.0 software when available, and use their free software meth safety. It's not as rock solid as the hardware meth safety they offer, but its cheap, easy, and gets the job done. Basically, it doesn't increase boost until IAT drops. I'll do a write up on it when we get closer to 2.0

mike

[shoes]

While I can't answer all your questions, I can say that I am/was just in your situation and I can offer my opinion.

With a completely stock car, I ended up going with the JB3 PnP + Basic BT and a BMS Drop-In filter. This all came to ~$800ish.
For low cost performance, these seem to be great intro mods. On the price per performance ratio, I'd say its totally worth it; great bang for your buck.

I cant say I'm done modding (I've actually only just begun ), but these 2 mods make the car that much more fun to drive.

Anyway, it basically comes down to how much you want to spend, what is "low-cost" to you.

[Muffnbluff]

You can't run meth with a JB+...you need something that's going to adjust fuel and timing amongst other things before just spraying away with meth.

[lpphreakx06]

JB2 is obsolete, don't even consider.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Muffnbluff

You can't run meth with a JB+...you need something that's going to adjust fuel and timing amongst other things before just spraying away with meth.

My understanding of meth is primarily to lower IAT, thus reducing cylinder pre-ignition, increasing density (but this is directly related to boost). After running many timing logs, the stock DME bounces off the knock limit thus stock timing with increased boost should be a good target. after a very brief search, meth timing seems to be around 10deg in 3rd and stock target is 8 to 10deg depending on outside temp. i would think timing does not need outside adjustment.

A/F ratio i am unsure of. DME most likely calculates per IAT, boost, etc before combustion, and does not adjust after combustion like with EGT. So adjustment with tune per increase boost is necessary, but doesn't matter if meth or not. The DME should adjust per IAT itself. Does JB+ only change boost and nothing else?

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you're looking for bargain performance here is my suggestion:

JB3 Pin Out $349
Dual cone intake add on $100
BMS 250psi trunk mount meth kit $355

Then update the JB3 to 2.0 software when available, and use their free software meth safety. It's not as rock solid as the hardware meth safety they offer, but its cheap, easy, and gets the job done. Basically, it doesn't increase boost until IAT drops. I'll do a write up on it when we get closer to 2.0

mike

So with a meth map, what parameters are different specifically? of course the saftey feature and when initiated. with boost not being initiated until IAT drop... what about part throttle operation? When are you initiating meth? I would think with boost is best, and then fail safe based on IAT, or flow?

Meth Map:
1. safety feature / initiation
2. timing increase / adjustment?
3. A/F ratios different from non-meth? With JB tunning in general, a/f ratio adjustment is based on boost primarily and DME adjust per other parameters?

what about DME torque value? is this disabled / regulated or even with tune is DME trying to even the power per outside conditions?

sorry i have many questions.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

So with a meth map, what parameters are different specifically? of course the saftey feature and when initiated. with boost not being initiated until IAT drop... what about part throttle operation? When are you initiating meth? I would think with boost is best, and then fail safe based on IAT, or flow?

Meth Map:
1. safety feature / initiation
2. timing increase / adjustment?
3. A/F ratios different from non-meth? With JB tunning in general, a/f ratio adjustment is based on boost primarily and DME adjust per other parameters?

what about DME torque value? is this disabled / regulated or even with tune is DME trying to even the power per outside conditions?

sorry i have many questions.

We'll get in to more detail on the meth safeties and how they are configured in the 2.0 release. But you have a variety of options. The best case scenario is the CMGS with flow sensor. The preferred setup is having the JB3 run the methanol using a spare PWM output to the CMGS, using an algorithm based on boost, RPM, and TPS. Alternatively you can also plumb a boost line to the CMGS and configure meth flow manually based on boost alone. But when using boost alone there is a delay in meth shut down as it takes time for the tube to depressurize. An algorithm including TPS that is electrically triggered is preferred. The safety is configured on the CMGS side a variety of ways and adjustable in the JB3 2.0 software to match.

The software safety is a simple system but efficient if you want a simpler and easier to implement approach.

The JB3 maps have air/fuel ratios preset but with 2.0 that is adjustable. Most are finding map 7 a good match for daily meth usage. Timing will automatically advance itself just like when you add race gas.

Mike

[Joshboody]

[QUOTE=shiv@vishnu;6101440]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

So with a

Hi Shiv

I reviewed your post on controling meth... very comprehensive.

some of your opinions regarding conservative Meth / tune mods only:
1. with procede you can retard timing. With meth any need to advance timing? For example can you input -25% correction value.
2. without DP and aftermarket intake, I would have to optimize my own mapping correct? And could I adjust when meth is on, map switching, etc. I imagine most maps are based on DP, FMIC, intake?
3. What do you think about no FMIC with Meth
4. what are my boost limits with NO DPs / intake. i don't want the turbos to work too hard.

My goal maybe a little different then others, as i'm trying to reduce IAT with conservative boost mainly for timing. Others of course lower IAT, but also increasing boost. My "aggresive" map, outside of daily driving, maybe based on timing then.

Is there a limit to reducing IAT where there is limited advantage. Density is increased, but at some point timing would not be effected. IAT when related to timing is just no pre-ignition?? At some point lower IAT could result in a need for timing retard because of pressure. Really since there is a boost/pressure target that is measured by the DME, lowering temps for density may not matter?? So solely to reduce pre-ignition and control timing? now if your target is turbo rpm limit, then further air density is important, but with final pressure target Meth only for timing. just rambling now...

[MFKN3]

I'd get a procede + dp's or FMIC

[GTR-Dad]

My favorite mod so far has been tightening the nut behind the wheel. Not sure what your driving background is, but for under $500 I bought some instructional driving books and took a two day race school.
I considered myself a fairly accomplished driver at the time and was astonished with how much I learned with an instructor beside me on the track. This, combined with some autocross and open track days, has increased my enjoyment of the driving experience substantially!

Cheers,
Dan

[SchwarzOpsAZ]

I'm in NE Phx if you want to feel an E90 with a Procede and Intake. I love it and am glad I went with a tune early.

[marconi118]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

My understanding of meth is primarily to lower IAT, thus reducing cylinder pre-ignition, increasing density (but this is directly related to boost). After running many timing logs, the stock DME bounces off the knock limit thus stock timing with increased boost should be a good target. after a very brief search, meth timing seems to be around 10deg in 3rd and stock target is 8 to 10deg depending on outside temp. i would think timing does not need outside adjustment.

A/F ratio i am unsure of. DME most likely calculates per IAT, boost, etc before combustion, and does not adjust after combustion like with EGT. So adjustment with tune per increase boost is necessary, but doesn't matter if meth or not. The DME should adjust per IAT itself. Does JB+ only change boost and nothing else?

YES DME is doing A/F compensation after burning via the wideband O2 sensor this is the most important way to achieve the desired A/F

I am thinking the same as you: stock spark timing should be ok with increased boost and meth. Meth will enritch a bit the A/F but it will corrected by the DME. This si good because DME can't enrich more than 30%
past 30% it will throw a code. So if we increase boost, the extra fuel needed should come mostly from the methanol injected and not from the DME

[rbaldwin28]

It sounds like a procede with the meth kit would be a better fit for you so you can data log and adjust IGN Cor. My 2Cents

[Zeph]

FMIC does more than just drop IAT's... Stock design has restrictions and loses boost (causing turbos to work harder). I would rather have tune + FMIC than tune + meth if I had to choose. I don't think you will see a huge difference in price between good meth kit and good FMIC.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by marconi118

YES DME is doing A/F compensation after burning via the wideband O2 sensor this is the most important way to achieve the desired A/F

I am thinking the same as you: stock spark timing should be ok with increased boost and meth. Meth will enritch a bit the A/F but it will corrected by the DME. This si good because DME can't enrich more than 30%
past 30% it will throw a code. So if we increase boost, the extra fuel needed should come mostly from the methanol injected and not from the DME

Yes, of course a/f ratio is adjusted by the O2 sensor... i'm use to carburated non-computer controled engines. So >30% code... even with tune? This shouldn't be an issue though, 30% from 14.7/1 is way too rich anyway right. The prob would be maxed boost, IAT per rpm meaning very increased fuel delivery rate throwing code... but of course not an issue cause people are running >450hp. So with a tune I expect A/F ratio is being adjusted by DME with slight signal input from tune to enrich??

[marconi118]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Yes, of course a/f ratio is adjusted by the O2 sensor... i'm use to carburated non-computer controled engines. So >30% code... even with tune? This shouldn't be an issue though, 30% from 14.7/1 is way too rich anyway right. The prob would be maxed boost, IAT per rpm meaning very increased fuel delivery rate throwing code... but of course not an issue cause people are running >450hp. So with a tune I expect A/F ratio is being adjusted by DME with slight signal input from tune to enrich??

JB3 and Procede alter the HPFP fuel pressure signal. In practice turbo boost and HPFP pressure are increased so that DME can achieve the target A/F vith injection timing not greater than 30% of the base injection timings in the tables.
O2 sensor signal is altered to obtain that the DME uses a different A/F that the target A/F in the DME.

[marconi118]

do you think stock A/F are ok with increased boost running methanol?
this would avoid to alter the O2 signal.

Only increase boost, increase a bit the HPFP pressure and inject methanol

It could be so simple as that?


BTW: you are used to carb engines, how do you determine if the engine runs on right A/F without an O2 sensor? I am trying this on my oldtimer fiat 127 running big carbs

[marconi118]

I think catless DPs are really a cheap good mod for longevity and increased power...

[OpenFlash]

[QUOTE=Joshboody;6102219]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Shiv

I reviewed your post on controling meth... very comprehensive.

some of your opinions regarding conservative Meth / tune mods only:
1. with procede you can retard timing. With meth any need to advance timing? For example can you input -25% correction value.

Yes, you can add timing with the PROcede. However, with the current maps, there is no need to add timing when running 15+psi. The stock, non retarded timing curve will do just fine for the most part. We will release more aggressive maps that will advance timing where it is beneficial (in the 5000-6000rpm range. With a positive 1.5-2 deg correction, we can pick up another 10-15whp.

2. without DP and aftermarket intake, I would have to optimize my own mapping correct? And could I adjust when meth is on, map switching, etc. I imagine most maps are based on DP, FMIC, intake?

We have meth maps for stg 1, stg 2 and stg 3 set ups. So it will work fine in any set-up. And yes, you can adjust the level of meth map aggressiveness. Both in terms of boost pressure and ignition correction. You can also set up your overboost limits to make sure boost never exceeds what you find comfortable.

3. What do you think about no FMIC with Meth

Within the next several days, I'll be installing our PnP meth kit on an otherwise stock 335 that is currently just running a Procede. I think it will do very well. Possibly better than if it just rain an FMIC instead.

4. what are my boost limits with NO DPs / intake. i don't want the turbos to work too hard.

We have had the factory intake on a superflow and plotted CFM vs. inlet vacuum (inches of water) and found it to be very restrictive above 350cfm which is much lower than the flow capacity of the turbos when running a solid tune. So trying to run over 14psi on the stock intake box isn't recommended. And have the fun of running methanol is being able to turn up boost a couple psi (along with dialing out the ignition retard). So, at the very least, I'd suggest DCIs. This is why our Stg Meth kit consists of a PRocede, PNP meth kit AND DCIs. This will keep the turbos working as little as possible when running the 15-16psi you will want to run on meth.

My goal maybe a little different then others, as i'm trying to reduce IAT with conservative boost mainly for timing. Others of course lower IAT, but also increasing boost. My "aggresive" map, outside of daily driving, maybe based on timing then.

Ok.

Is there a limit to reducing IAT where there is limited advantage. Density is increased, but at some point timing would not be effected. IAT when related to timing is just no pre-ignition?? At some point lower IAT could result in a need for timing retard because of pressure. Really since there is a boost/pressure target that is measured by the DME, lowering temps for density may not matter?? So solely to reduce pre-ignition and control timing? now if your target is turbo rpm limit, then further air density is important, but with final pressure target Meth only for timing. just rambling now...

Lots of questions here. Currently at JFK airport waiting for boarding. I'll do my best to answer these qs when i get back to CA later tonight

Cheers
shiv