[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Yeah, I agree.
But it won't really matter.
The Xede just doesn't allow for updates.
Even if by some way, shape or form, AA was able to expand on Shiv's Xede and get a few more ponies and tq out of it, who cares?

Why can't you update the xede maps?

[adc]

Originally Posted by Driver72

The Xede just doesn't allow for updates.

You are mistaken - it may not allow room for expanding new features that require additional inputs, but new software maps can be downloaded into it.

And there's more to it than just PEAK power outputs.

Totally agree - so until someone drives and compares driveability and other aspects, we will never know which one is "better" - just which side people have taken. What a shame...

the fact Shiv is the one who developed the Xede and PROcede for our cars in the first place, I'd support him for all his hard work.

See it's not very clear to me that AA benefited at all from Shiv's work. I think the interested parties should step up and settle this once and for all.

Especially since he's a good dude and cool cat

He is one of the nicest guys I've met, particularly in the tuning business which can be quite harsh at times. I just fail to see why or how this can detract from someone else's tuning efforts... it's not like you're marrying either Shiv or Karl when you buy one of their products.


If you are prepared to bash a company, you'd better have your facts straight and all the ducks in a row. Which I didn't really see on these forums...

[Driver72]

I don't think anybody is bashing a company here.
AA surely has done great things for the BMW community.
But when it comes to the Xede and PROcede, it's clear who developed (did all the grunt work) those products for the BMW community.

[SfValley335i]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I don't think anybody is bashing a company here.
AA surely has done great things for the BMW community.
But when it comes to the Xede and PROcede, it's clear who developed (did all the grunt work) those products for the BMW community.

do you care more about how much power (safe) your going to make or who developed the product?

I personally wouldnt give a rats ass who made what. As long as the product is affordable and gives me max hp/trq

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by rflow

I don't make excuses or claim to be special, I just post numbers from the track. Then again I've never been a what if guy just a what is.

No excuses being made. Just wondering why AA is being so secretive and elusive about full disclosure on what mods the car has they are claiming to get 354 rwhp from?
Again, AA needs to back up those claims with facts and accurate stats.
354 rwhp in these cars should mean trap speeds faster than 109 mph (more like 110-111) on a sea level track on 93 Octane. It's that simple.
My car which is making 314 rwhp just trapped at 107 mph on a track that's know for being one of the slowest in the country, and is at over 2700 feet in elevation!

Just looking for the facts, why is it that Shiv is so open and honest and forthright with his info. while AA is so secretive and closed lipped?
It took them WEEKS, maybe a month or more to post a dyno slip or state dyno results, and then when they do, they don't give the details of the car they tested and the mods it had on, or the gas used, etc etc. Even after numerous people asked for it.
When people hide things, other people ask questions to why?

We all appreciate that you've posted your track numbers Rflow, but it's the power claims AA is making without statistical details that bring stuff into question.
I don't even remember you posting a dyno sheet?
Maybe you did long ago and I missed it, but if you didn't, why not?

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

do you care more about how much power (safe) your going to make or who developed the product?

I personally wouldnt give a rats ass who made what. As long as the product is affordable and gives me max hp/trq

For the most part, I'm the other way around.

I don't care as much about max hp/tq
I care more about the product, it's development, it's safety and reliabilty.

I won't buy a "knock off" at piece of equipment from Walmart (that was surely made by some 15 year old in China) even if it performs slightly better than the original that was made by a licensed, experienced, seasoned professional who spent a long time developing a higher quality product, but also engineered in safety elements that make it more reliable and better overall!

If the AA Xede makes 10 more peak HP and 10 more Peak Tq than the PROcede, that's great. I understand AA is a first class operation.
But the PROcede, to my knowledge is the superior product.
So I'd give up the 10 hp/tq to go with the superior product.

But I'm also a statistics nut, I'd like to know which performs better, and PEAK output is only a small portion of the rev range anyway.

**BTW I don't shop at WalMart at all anyway. Seriously

[bnj]

What "statistics" do you need to back up whp figures??? Who gives any "statistics" anyway? Not Shiv, not AA, not anybody. Or do you mean "average trap speed across all attemps" by AA vs Procede? 354whp is not even high.

[bnj]

Majority of tuning customers that I know, would not agree that inferior hp means better product. From a vendor perspective, it can be the case if marketing is top notch.

[bnj]

I have Procede but I don't need to claim anything like "Toyota is a better F1 car product than Ferrari because it has more potential". Procede as such does not mean any less hp than Xede. The exhaust makes the difference.

[rflow]

Originally Posted by Driver72

No excuses being made. Just wondering why AA is being so secretive and elusive about full disclosure on what mods the car has they are claiming to get 354 rwhp from?
Again, AA needs to back up those claims with facts and accurate stats.
354 rwhp in these cars should mean trap speeds faster than 109 mph (more like 110-111) on a sea level track on 93 Octane. It's that simple.
My car which is making 314 rwhp just trapped at 107 mph on a track that's know for being one of the slowest in the country, and is at over 2700 feet in elevation!

Just looking for the facts, why is it that Shiv is so open and honest and forthright with his info. while AA is so secretive and closed lipped?
It took them WEEKS, maybe a month or more to post a dyno slip or state dyno results, and then when they do, they don't give the details of the car they tested and the mods it had on, or the gas used, etc etc. Even after numerous people asked for it.
When people hide things, other people ask questions to why?

We all appreciate that you've posted your track numbers Rflow, but it's the power claims AA is making without statistical details that bring stuff into question.
I don't even remember you posting a dyno sheet?
Maybe you did long ago and I missed it, but if you didn't, why not?

It's very simple because the most accurate dyno in the world is at your local race track the rest are computer corrected. The dyno is a unique tool which crunches numbers based on location and desired correction. A comparison of different dyno's is unscientific and futile.

If i remember correctly it made 300 on their mustang dyno with no exhaust with the very first maps, 243 stock on a mustang and 270 on a dynojet stock. We continued to make changes to the map and added exhaust but I never dynoed my car with the mods. I would try it out with the other test cars and ride to the track. They definitely wanted me to dyno to post the results but i never got around to it. I will be at the track hopefully next week with the current map, stock exhaust and stock tires. I will gladly post those results to, but let me recap -100% stock 13.34 at 104, stock with Dr's -13.20's at 104, early maps with exhaust 12.80's at 107.50, more tuning 12.60's and 70's at 108.90's to 109.50's, latest tune with stock exhaust coming soon and last but not least some track results for the AA-flash. That and work should keep me busy for a while not to mention track time with the e55.

In the end the only thing that matters to me is that in a race I'm in-front of the guy in the lane next to me. At that point in time higher or lower Dyno numbers don't mean a thing.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by rflow

It's very simple because the most accurate dyno in the world is at your local race track the rest are computer corrected. The dyno is a unique tool which crunches numbers based on location and desired correction. A comparison of different dyno's is unscientific and futile.

If i remember correctly it made 300 on their mustang dyno with no exhaust with the very first maps, 243 stock on a mustang and 270 on a dynojet stock. We continued to make changes to the map and added exhaust but I never dynoed my car with the mods. I would try it out with the other test cars and ride to the track. They definitely wanted me to dyno to post the results but i never got around to it. I will be at the track hopefully next week with the current map, stock exhaust and stock tires. I will gladly post those results to, but let me recap -100% stock 13.34 at 104, stock with Dr's -13.20's at 104, early maps with exhaust 12.80's at 107.50, more tuning 12.60's and 70's at 108.90's to 109.50's, latest tune with stock exhaust coming soon and last but not least some track results for the AA-flash. That and work should keep me busy for a while not to mention track time with the e55.

In the end the only thing that matters to me is that in a race I'm in-front of the guy in the lane next to me. At that point in time higher or lower Dyno numbers don't mean a thing.

Great points and I understand.
But sadly here in So. Cal we don't have access to many "good" tracks.
They are all "average" at best and one (LACR) is probably one of the worst NHRA tracks in the country.

Condtions at these tracks change so much from visit to visit that even quantifying times at them is unscientific.
One day it could be 60 degrees with 20% humidity and no wind, then you can do a mod, go back three weeks later and it be 80 degrees, 60% humidity and 10-15 mph headwind, and run the same or worse times AFTER the mod.

In those cases dynos ARE the way to quantify the results to a more accurate degree.
And true, as I've stated many times over the years, comparing dynos is not exactly accurate, but short of gathering everybody with different mods from around the country to meet at one dyno or track at the same time on the same day, it's the best we can do. And comparing two different Dynojet dynos IS much more closely accurate than comparing two completely different race tracks.

Please do let us know what times you get with your new tune on stock exhaust and stock tires. Have fun and be safe.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by rflow

It's very simple because the most accurate dyno in the world is at your local race track the rest are computer corrected. The dyno is a unique tool which crunches numbers based on location and desired correction. A comparison of different dyno's is unscientific and futile.

If i remember correctly it made 300 on their mustang dyno with no exhaust with the very first maps, 243 stock on a mustang and 270 on a dynojet stock. We continued to make changes to the map and added exhaust but I never dynoed my car with the mods. I would try it out with the other test cars and ride to the track. They definitely wanted me to dyno to post the results but i never got around to it. I will be at the track hopefully next week with the current map, stock exhaust and stock tires. I will gladly post those results to, but let me recap -100% stock 13.34 at 104, stock with Dr's -13.20's at 104, early maps with exhaust 12.80's at 107.50, more tuning 12.60's and 70's at 108.90's to 109.50's, latest tune with stock exhaust coming soon and last but not least some track results for the AA-flash. That and work should keep me busy for a while not to mention track time with the e55.

In the end the only thing that matters to me is that in a race I'm in-front of the guy in the lane next to me. At that point in time higher or lower Dyno numbers don't mean a thing.

Dead on post, dyno's are a tool for tuning and selling products. Take it to the track or line the cars up, whoever runs the best ET/trap or pulls in a friendly run matters more to me than being dyno king.

Driver72 is correct about the track conditions here in Socal, Up North at Sac raceway is our best bet, Shiv trapped 111 there with the procede.

It would be great to see a AA car go up against a procede car.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Dead on post, dyno's are a tool for tuning and selling products. Take it to the track or line the cars up, whoever runs the best ET/trap or pulls in a friendly run matters more to me than being dyno king.

Driver72 is correct about the track conditions here in Socal, Up North at Sac raceway is our best bet, Shiv trapped 111 there with the procede.

It would be great to see a AA car go up against a procede car.

But the problem with the tracks are the most powerful car does not always win. Example: I had the best times at Famoso of all the BMW's, but the s/c M3's clearly are faster cars. Driver ability on the track plays a BIG role.
Running from a ROLL (preferable 40+ mph on up) is more accurate for seeing which car is making more power, but then you have to be willing to risk a BIG ticket and possibly even losing your car for "street racing".
And even then there is SOME driver skill involved.
Same dyno, same day removes ALL driver skill and is the best way to compare different cars to see which is putting more power down and therefore probably the quicker car, as long as the drivers have equal skill and mods are equal.

[Terry335]

Dynos are a lot like masturbation. It can be a lot of fun, but it's no substitute for the real thing.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Driver72

But the problem with the tracks are the most powerful car does not always win. Example: I had the best times at Famoso of all the BMW's, but the s/c M3's clearly are faster cars. Driver ability on the track plays a BIG role.
Running from a ROLL (preferable 40+ mph on up) is more accurate for seeing which car is making more power, but then you have to be willing to risk a BIG ticket and possibly even losing your car for "street racing".
And even then there is SOME driver skill involved.
Same dyno, same day removes ALL driver skill and is the best way to compare different cars to see which is putting more power down and therefore probably the quicker car, as long as the drivers have equal skill and mods are equal.

NO doubt that's why trap speeds tell you more, even then those can be deceiving. 2nd gear roll is your best bet to see which car is truely faster IMHO, it takes out all the limiting factors, like launch, wheelspin, driver, etc.

[mtndog]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

do you care more about how much power (safe) your going to make or who developed the product?

I personally wouldnt give a rats ass who made what. As long as the product is affordable and gives me max hp/trq

Interesting...so, why did you buy a BMW? Not trying to get off topic just curious.

[MacAttack]

[bnj]

Originally Posted by mtndog

Interesting...so, why did you buy a BMW? Not trying to get off topic just curious.

e92 335i looks awesome, drives extremely well and although it is not extremely fast, it can be cured e.g. by Procede+hardware upgrades. Price is low. Better to ask why not to buy one.

[mtndog]

Originally Posted by bnj

e92 335i looks awesome, drives extremely well and although it is not extremely fast, it can be cured e.g. by Procede+hardware upgrades. Price is low. Better to ask why not to buy one.

Thanks, but I was referring to his quote:

I personally wouldn’t give a rat’s ass who made what. As long as the product is affordable and gives me max hp/trq.

If that is his thought process, why buy a BMW. There are cars out there that are less expensive and have more power.

[bnj]

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Thanks for clarification. Not wanting to guess his reasons, but I understand that by "the product" he refers to tuning products - not cars. In cars there are a lot more aspects to consider.

[mtndog]

Originally Posted by bnj

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Thanks for clarification. Not wanting to guess his reasons, but I understand that by "the product" he refers to tuning products - not cars. In cars there are a lot more aspects to consider.

No big deal. I’m sure you are correct…..I just thought his original statement was an odd one. But, to each his own.

[SfValley335i]

Originally Posted by mtndog

Interesting...so, why did you buy a BMW? Not trying to get off topic just curious.

just as Bnj said, I was referring to tuning products not actual cars.But I bought the bmw because of its name/styling and the motor. It has all 3 things in 1 package, luxury, turbo's and euro styling.

If Company A developed and made a product "xede" and Company B created a legal copy (or similar product) which gave the same HP/Torq but at a lower price. I wouldn't Pay a Premium on the product to Company A because they spent more time developing it. Again it isnt about who made what first, its about who can make a product with one of the highest power gains at the cheapest price. And as of right now AA tuning has that product.

Just because the PROcede has more Inputs/Outputs compared to AA tuning Xede doesnt make it better. At the moment procede is not using any of the extra I/O to make higher hp/torq gains. Thus until they do put those extra I/O's to use then AA tuning is better because of its lower Price and availability.