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      12-01-2011, 06:01 AM   #89
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      12-01-2011, 06:13 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon View Post
Exactly - we're all effectively in the same boat so striking solves absolutely nothing.

Sorry xenon what..... The points raised show were not in the same boat??

It was to point out that the situation isn't as clear as black or white there good and bad points to working in both sectors.

You generally get a better pension in the public sector but you don't get annual bonuses etc

One point not raised I would never take away a persons right to strike. Look at the bigger picture....if we didn't have the right to strike employers in the public and private sectors could erode our conditions with no resistance. Not a good thing in my opinion.
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      12-01-2011, 06:16 AM   #91
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Oh bollocks I’ve been drawn in…

The public sector pension, even after its reform, will still be classed as a Rolls Royce of pensions (just a Shadow and not a Phantom). It has escalation included which is HUGELY expensive to replicate through a private pension.

Not sure how many of you have actually heard about ‘auto-enrolment’??? This little beauty is going to force EVERY EMPLOYEE in the UK to pay 5% of their salary into pension, and their EMPLOYERS, to pay 3% COMPULSORY. This is being phased in between October 2012 (for the largest employers) and February 2016 (for smaller employers).

So, public sector workers may be moaning now, but roll on a few years and literally everyone will be paying into their pensions.
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      12-01-2011, 06:19 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabroni80 View Post
I think the argument on salaries is pretty much equal these days- but there isn't a boom and bust bonus culture in the public sector.

Beyond this there's far more to this argument- we're living longer, employee contribution rates and whether individual schemes are actually in surplus or deficit.
This seemed to suggest that whether you're public or private, we're ALL living longer, we've ALL faced austerity measures, we've ALL had pension and pension rights reductions and therefore we're all in the same boat.

I must have misunderstood you were making.

The thing that's different is that when MY pension was cut I re-adjusted my personal contributions and got on with it. You know, like a grown-up.
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      12-01-2011, 09:12 AM   #93
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Not everyone is feeling the pinch due to the recession, I know of people doing rather well out of it. In Hull about 5 different Gold shops have opened up in quick succession.....am I getting this wrong, is everyone suffering in this situation.....nope, most of us are. A select few are not.

To re-iterate a point I've already made:

"To clear something up, when people in the private sector have it good you can potencially have it very fucking good, dont pissing moan about public sector when times are bad because u feel it the most. Thats the risk/reward you have in the private sector. I should know, for a time i did pretty well out of it. The public sector majority dont ever really have it that good, sure you will here exceptions to this. The attraction to public sector is the stability it affords, yeah you aint gunna be a millionaire but your pension will be somink decent to look forward to for your 40yrs service, no ever getting rich dreams for these people."
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      12-01-2011, 09:15 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmallwo View Post
Not everyone is feeling the pinch due to the recession, I know of people doing rather well out of it. In Hull about 5 different Gold shops have opened up in quick succession.....am I getting this wrong, is everyone suffering in this situation.....nope, most of us are. A select few are not.

To re-iterate a point I've already made:

"To clear something up, when people in the private sector have it good you can potencially have it very fucking good, dont pissing moan about public sector when times are bad because u feel it the most. Thats the risk/reward you have in the private sector. I should know, for a time i did pretty well out of it. The public sector majority dont ever really have it that good, sure you will here exceptions to this. The attraction to public sector is the stability it affords, yeah you aint gunna be a millionaire but your pension will be somink decent to look forward to for your 40yrs service, no ever getting rich dreams for these people."
What does the gold shops prove?

Maybe that they can take advantage of more needy people who need to sell valuables to make ends meet?

How many people do you think these gold shops benefit?
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      12-01-2011, 09:34 AM   #95
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There seems to be some perception that all private sector workers get great bonuses every year ......... do they, I certainly don't think so. Also there are significant bonuses in some public sector jobs and automatic incremental increase of pay due to number of years served, that doesn't exist elsewhere.
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      12-01-2011, 09:52 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmallwo View Post
dont pissing moan about public sector when times are bad because u feel it the most.
That's not what people are moaning about "we feel it the most". Everyone feels it but not everyone downs tools and fcuks off for the day.

You cannot justify strike action in these circumstances no matter how much your union rep tells you that you can.
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      12-01-2011, 10:31 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerxp View Post
Not sure how many of you have actually heard about ‘auto-enrolment’??? This little beauty is going to force EVERY EMPLOYEE in the UK to pay 5% of their salary into pension, and their EMPLOYERS, to pay 3% COMPULSORY. This is being phased in between October 2012 (for the largest employers) and February 2016 (for smaller employers).
Yes I have but as far as employers are concerned I bet I'm in a minority. Well at least this time enrolment is compulsory rather than the voluntary Stakeholder Pensions (remember them?) which turned out to be little more than an opportunity for the banks to fleece small businesses.
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      12-01-2011, 10:38 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by rich1068 View Post
Yes I have but as far as employers are concerned I bet I'm in a minority. Well at least this time enrolment is compulsory rather than the voluntary Stakeholder Pensions (remember them?) which turned out to be little more than an opportunity for the banks to fleece small businesses.
Don't speak to the banks is my advice - they make up the rules as they go along free from any challenge from the chicken-shit FSA (oh, there, you rattled my cage ).

Oh, it's compulsory up to the point where you are able to opt-out, though the opt-out process has been made so difficult most people will give up trying before succeeding.

Saying that, public sector workers could opt-out of their pension if they feel that strongly, and set-up their own plan. They'd be mental to do that though.
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      12-01-2011, 10:42 AM   #99
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Generalisations such as saying that people in the private sector get bonuses or have it "very fucking good" when times are good is as insulting and brainless an observation as saying "all public sector workers are lazy good for nothings."

I personally do not have a pension. My employer like so many small employers are under no obligation to provide one. Most of the people I know are in the same situation. The amount I would need to pay into a pension to make it worth while is not an affordable figure.

Both these links make for interesting reading (not saying anyone should read the Mail). How true they are, I don't know.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/pen...ributions.html

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...il_taxpensions
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      12-01-2011, 10:59 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmallwo View Post
Not everyone is feeling the pinch due to the recession, I know of people doing rather well out of it. In Hull about 5 different Gold shops have opened up in quick succession.....am I getting this wrong, is everyone suffering in this situation.....nope, most of us are. A select few are not.

To re-iterate a point I've already made:

"To clear something up, when people in the private sector have it good you can potencially have it very fucking good, dont pissing moan about public sector when times are bad because u feel it the most. Thats the risk/reward you have in the private sector. I should know, for a time i did pretty well out of it. The public sector majority dont ever really have it that good, sure you will here exceptions to this. The attraction to public sector is the stability it affords, yeah you aint gunna be a millionaire but your pension will be somink decent to look forward to for your 40yrs service, no ever getting rich dreams for these people."
What does the gold shops prove?

Maybe that they can take advantage of more needy people who need to sell valuables to make ends meet?

How many people do you think these gold shops benefit?
Haha funny because gold shops prove the opposite to the point you make.
The fact someone can afford the overhead cost of a retail unit to only buy and sell gold shows that the economy is f'd and the stock market is falling faster than a hoars draws and people are finding a safe haven in a commodity, thus raising the price.
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      12-01-2011, 11:05 AM   #101
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I also think the strikes have been badly timed, negotiations are ongoing!
The ambulance workers in London let down the city. - they should be banned from strike action as the police are.
The action was over the top and used tactic from a different era.
Teaching strikes in the 80's with timed walk outs for short periods of time would have been a nice measured response

On the radio this morn a case eg- policeman works from 17 for 30 years. Contributes 10%
Retires with potentially 50% of his life to live on 2/3rds of his former income each year.
This is not sustainable!!!! o
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      12-01-2011, 11:42 AM   #102
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Not sustainable for sure, but the Public Sector guys seem to argue they were promised it and even though global economics have been transformed they still feel hard done by. They still as Roger mentions have a Rolls Royce pension but its not what they were promised so the big Union man says all out and away they go.
Still waiting on someone from that viewpoint to give a reasoned argument on the point.
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      12-01-2011, 11:57 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Not sustainable for sure, but the Public Sector guys seem to argue they were promised it and even though global economics have been transformed they still feel hard done by. They still as Roger mentions have a Rolls Royce pension but its not what they were promised so the big Union man says all out and away they go.
Still waiting on someone from that viewpoint to give a reasoned argument on the point.
Were they promised as in it was written into their contract as unchangable so any variation would require everyone to agree on a new contract?

Or was a pension written in, but the pension amount open to variation?
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      12-01-2011, 11:58 AM   #104
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      12-02-2011, 05:25 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
Were they promised as in it was written into their contract as unchangable so any variation would require everyone to agree on a new contract?

Or was a pension written in, but the pension amount open to variation?
Not part of the contract, not for the NHS anyway. It was a choice, at the time of starting, to opt in or out of the NHS pension scheme. However, opting in meant agreeing to the terms & conditions - their terms & conditions, which stipulated a fixed contribution from the employee, and a retirement age of 65.

Nobody with any intelligence is arguing with the fact that there isn't enough money to go around - that's painfully obvious.

What the gripe is about, from what I can see, is the fact that none of the workforce have been consulted about this change. I'm sure union leaders and senior management have been involved, but this has absolutely not been disseminated down to the people who actually do the job. The first we knew about it was when we were told that these changes would be happening. Full stop.

What's most ironic is that for those who did take part in any kind of industrial action, all their efforts have amounted to precisely fuck all It was a foregone conclusion, I don't know what they hoped to achieve.
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      12-02-2011, 06:16 AM   #106
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I’m not overly sure what I can add to this debate but I suppose some balance or evidence that the private sector isn’t all that rosey in these times. I’m not suggesting one is better than the other but I look after a number of employers, large and small, so can guarantee the follow has already/is currently/or about to happen for many of my clients -:

* Employers pension contributions reduced or stopped all together (employee’s given the option to cease their contributions too)
* Salaries been frozen for a number of years; lots in fact taken pay-cuts
* Employee’s given the choice of either 1) still receive e’er pension contributions & pay-cut or 2) no e’er pension contribution & same non-escalating salary
* There is a lot a down of downsizing, cost cutting and therefore redundancies
* Healthcare benefits either being cut-back or cancelled all together
* Death in Service being cut-back or cancelled all together

Some employers are having to take this action (one or a combination) for obvious reasons. Employees may well have been consulted but didn’t really have a choice in the matter – if these steps weren’t taken the companies would have been in grave danger and everyone could have lost their jobs.

To be fair, picking-up on ParaPaul’s comment, liaising with the entire public-sector workforce would be nigh on impossible. Isn’t that why Unions are there to speak on your behalf???

I myself took a 50% pay-cut throughout the recession for nearly 2 years AND stopped all pension contributions (forcing the sale of whatever cars I had at the time) and a total realignment of household spending (just wish my wife listened!!!).

I’m not here to provoke anyone, I truly sympathise for those public-sector workers who feel cheated, but I don’t understand the strikes one bit, as I have personal experience of many many employees having been treated in the exact same way already by their employers. My wife used to work for a PCT so know those places were full of a bunch of layabout management types who wouldn’t make a decision and just took the piss all day long – that lot, and others like them, can get f*cked). I also know for a fact that employers took these actions as an absolute last ditch resort, they did not enjoy treating their valued employees like it, and I don’t see much being different with the public-sector. I couldn’t give a shit how much greater your pension is than most others, if affordable to maintain, but it seems it isn’t anymore.

It’s still a fucking great pension scheme that I bet every private sector worker wished they had access too. I think a massive part of the problem is that the majority of people in the public-sector scheme don’t truly understand quite how fantastic is it, it’s an immense scheme (even after reform), they just hear the words ‘cut’ without appreciating what they still have. I know 99%* of the UK public don’t truly understand pensions (that’s why I’ve still got a job) so I’m not singling out public-sector workers for not understanding it but do fear that’s where a lot of the emotion is coming from.

I bet if you asked a public-sector worker if they’d swap their reformed pension for one the 99%* of the private-sector employees have they’d laugh in your face. I can tell you that 99%* of private-sector employees have either fuck-all pension or a woefully inadequate value. I met a company director last week (a fairly intelligent chap) who had a pension fund value of under £20k in his pension and he’s 45 year old – he’s knackered come retirement and know it. Just sayin’.

Summary, we're all struggling together. The employees I'm talking about all had written contracts stating their benefits package, all have been amended to reflect the external pressure businesses are under.

* I'm guessing this figure at 99% to make a point but it's a hugely dissprotionate figure and would well be in the nighties.
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Last edited by rogerxp; 12-02-2011 at 06:21 AM.
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      12-02-2011, 06:45 AM   #107
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Interestingly, I've just had the paperwork through. My pension which I've only set up 5 years ago; contracted by 14% this year. Ouch...

Now do I go for a high risk spread to claw that back, or go ultra low and wait it out in 2012 (expecting it to be a terrible year) and then up the ante in 2013.

Heh.
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      12-02-2011, 06:50 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
Interestingly, I've just had the paperwork through. My pension which I've only set up 5 years ago; contracted by 14% this year. Ouch...

Now do I go for a high risk spread to claw that back, or go ultra low and wait it out in 2012 (expecting it to be a terrible year) and then up the ante in 2013.

Heh.
Is it personal or part of a company scheme Dave??
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      12-02-2011, 07:10 AM   #109
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Scheme. 5% company. 10% from me. and I have full control over it (Can call pension guy whenever I feel like)
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      12-02-2011, 07:14 AM   #110
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Funny thing is, now it has come to light that most of the low paid staff, are better off under the reform.
Its the middle management who are worse affected.
Boohoo try the private sector then if you fancy yourself as a manager.

Cant take it away from the front line staff, low pay, hard job, full respect to them
The fucking unions have miss sold this strike to them, to justify their own membership costs.
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