[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

Thanks south. But I wonder how this is viable for BMW to develop and run a car for 1 year, unless theres some other plan.

Maybe they are just taking the majority of the ALMS GT car tech with new externals. But I'm pretty sure mechanical regs are different from GT to DTM too.

So curious how this is going to play out.

I had some related questions I had asked in a separate thread, but no one answered so I went and researched it a little. This quote, taken from wikipedia, basically confirmed what I suspected:

All DTM race cars have RWD and 4.0 L V8 engines which are air-restricted to 470 hp, no matter if similar layouts or engines are available in the road cars. Instead of the road car bodies, unrelated purpose-built chassis are used, which are closer to prototype racing. Many drivers have in fact described the handling of the cars as closer to single seater racing cars than road cars. Only the roof sections of the road cars are put on top of the roll cages, and lights and other distinctive design features are used in order to provide a resemblance to the road cars.

That is to say, DTM cars are not production-based cars at all. This is in stark contrast, BTW, to the M3 GTE/GT2 cars used in Le Mans and American LeMans respectively. Those start life as "production" M3s, with their body shells plucked right from the production line (though they then get built up into race cars and share very little with a road-going M3).

So, in reality, the changing of the guard coming up soon from E9x to F3x will have basically no effect whatsoever on BMW's DTM efforts. They are going to build a special racing chassis that, other than the roof, does note share a single bit of exterior with any production car - M3 or otherwise. In fact, further research indeed confirms the cars are based on purpose-built tubular spaceframes. In other words these cars are essentially the European kin to those used in our homegrown NASCAR series, albeit ones that are not stuck in the past and burdened by pushrod V8s and live axle rear ends.

What this all means is that the car will be easily updated to take on any F3x styling cues whenever BMW wishes. Maybe it's not just stickers like a NASCAR entry would typically get, but the changes needed to reflect a new model will nonetheless be minor since the car only barely ever looked anything like a production car to begin with. Now, these changes could happen soon after the E92 M3 ends production next year (i.e. they could take some cues from the new F30 3 series at that time), perhaps at the start of the car's second season in DTM. Alternatively they could just leave it alone until the F32 M3 shows its face in about 3 years time. Or, they could make a slow transition changing little things each year. But the bottom line is, this is going to be a chassis that is built to be used for many seasons (refined over time I'm sure), and it's lifespan will be completely uneffected to the lifespan of road going BMWs.

[southlight]

Let's not forget that DTM will have fairly new regulations in 2012. BMW participated the talks prior to the regulation changes and likely had quite some influence. In short, the prototype character of current DTM cars was a big reason why BMW didn't enter and compete in DTM in recent years. As I understand it, the new cars for 2012 are quite different as BMW -- among other manufacturers interested -- made it clear that they wouldn't join a race series that needs unique cars which can't be used for other events.


Best regards,
south

[mkoesel]

Interesting south. I guess that pretty much negates everything I just said, LOL. We'll see what happens. I am skeptical that the cars will just be LeMans cars with a few changes. It seems to me it would be cheaper to have a car whose looks could be updated to reflect some styling elements of the latest production car, rather than start with a new chassis every year. But what do I know.

BTW, I notice that Audi's current entry is simply called "A4 DTM" and Mercedes current entry is simply called "C Class DTM". Now that BMW has made it clear they will be entering an "M3 DTM", it will be interesting if the other two change to "RS5 DTM" and "C63 DTM" to better reflect their performance brands. Either way, I suspect that they will change the styling to be more coupe-like and less sedan-like.

Now, if we can just get Lexus to enter an ISF-DTM car, we can have a four way battle just like in US NASCAR Sprint Cup - with the Japanese being the odd man out against the three domestics.

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I had some related questions I had asked in a separate thread, but no one answered so I went and researched it a little. This quote, taken from wikipedia, basically confirmed what I suspected:



That is to say, DTM cars are not production-based cars at all. This is in stark contrast, BTW, to the M3 GTE/GT2 cars used in Le Mans and American LeMans respectively. Those start life as "production" M3s, with their body shells plucked right from the production line (though they then get built up into race cars and share very little with a road-going M3).

So, in reality, the changing of the guard coming up soon from E9x to F3x will have basically no effect whatsoever on BMW's DTM efforts. They are going to build a special racing chassis that, other than the roof, does note share a single bit of exterior with any production car - M3 or otherwise. In fact, further research indeed confirms the cars are based on purpose-built tubular spaceframes. In other words these cars are essentially the European kin to those used in our homegrown NASCAR series, albeit ones that are not stuck in the past and burdened by pushrod V8s and live axle rear ends.

What this all means is that the car will be easily updated to take on any F3x styling cues whenever BMW wishes. Maybe it's not just stickers like a NASCAR entry would typically get, but the changes needed to reflect a new model will nonetheless be minor since the car only barely ever looked anything like a production car to begin with. Now, these changes could happen soon after the E92 M3 ends production next year (i.e. they could take some cues from the new F30 3 series at that time), perhaps at the start of the car's second season in DTM. Alternatively they could just leave it alone until the F32 M3 shows its face in about 3 years time. Or, they could make a slow transition changing little things each year. But the bottom line is, this is going to be a chassis that is built to be used for many seasons (refined over time I'm sure), and it's lifespan will be completely uneffected to the lifespan of road going BMWs.

I was going to say I remember playing GT5 and reading up on DTM cars having to all use the same 4 liter V8's.

[M3_CSL_E92]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I had some related questions I had asked in a separate thread, but no one answered so I went and researched it a little. This quote, taken from wikipedia, basically confirmed what I suspected:

That is to say, DTM cars are not production-based cars at all. This is in stark contrast, BTW, to the M3 GTE/GT2 cars used in Le Mans and American LeMans respectively. Those start life as "production" M3s, with their body shells plucked right from the production line (though they then get built up into race cars and share very little with a road-going M3).

So, in reality, the changing of the guard coming up soon from E9x to F3x will have basically no effect whatsoever on BMW's DTM efforts. They are going to build a special racing chassis that, other than the roof, does note share a single bit of exterior with any production car - M3 or otherwise. In fact, further research indeed confirms the cars are based on purpose-built tubular spaceframes. In other words these cars are essentially the European kin to those used in our homegrown NASCAR series, albeit ones that are not stuck in the past and burdened by pushrod V8s and live axle rear ends.

What this all means is that the car will be easily updated to take on any F3x styling cues whenever BMW wishes. Maybe it's not just stickers like a NASCAR entry would typically get, but the changes needed to reflect a new model will nonetheless be minor since the car only barely ever looked anything like a production car to begin with. Now, these changes could happen soon after the E92 M3 ends production next year (i.e. they could take some cues from the new F30 3 series at that time), perhaps at the start of the car's second season in DTM. Alternatively they could just leave it alone until the F32 M3 shows its face in about 3 years time. Or, they could make a slow transition changing little things each year. But the bottom line is, this is going to be a chassis that is built to be used for many seasons (refined over time I'm sure), and it's lifespan will be completely uneffected to the lifespan of road going BMWs.

You have to keep in mind that you do not talk about DTM 2012 regs but the regulations put in place today.

None of us knows how the regulations will look but i can bet my right hand it will not be similar to what we have today but more in line with Super GT of today and ALMS GT class.
Costs will be cut in half from what i´ve read. And another funny thing is that the SuperGT folks got a DTM car shipped to them and compared it with a GT500 car.
The difference was over 7 seconds per lap.. and not in the DTM car´s favour.

[mkoesel]

^^^ Yeah, I know about the new coming regulations already - south just clued me in above in case you missed it.

Anyway, I was curious so, looked up Super GT GT500 on wikipedia too (why buck the trend? ).

Here's an interesting quote from the entry:

The chassis may also be heavily modified, with lightweight tube-frame "clips" being allowed in front of and behind the main cockpit, although the car must overall look similar to its road-going variant. These regulations result in cars which are possibly the fastest GT racing cars in the world.

So, it seems to me that GT500 cars are something of a hybrid between a full tube chassis like a DTM car of today and a typical Lemans GT car. In other words, saying the new 2012 DTM cars will be similar to a Super GT car or Lemans GT car is leaving a lot of room for just about anything. The two are actually pretty different. I will honestly be a little surprised if a new DTM car shares anything in the body or chassis with a production car, so to me it will probably be more like the Super GT car than the Lemans GT car. Just my opinion.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Now, if we can just get Lexus to enter an ISF-DTM car, we can have a four way battle just like in US NASCAR Sprint Cup - with the Japanese being the odd man out against the three domestics.

DTM is German touring cars.

[Kayani_1]

It will be exciting to see BMW M3 compete in DTM against the likes of MB and Audi.

Only thing is speed does not cover all their races

I am very impressed with M3 in ALMS and they were doing very well in 24 hrs-Le mans until they got dropped back to 3rd position while the 2nd car had issues. Still 3rd place was not bad.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

here is Jon Sibal's render of BMW's DTM entry...

Wow...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18

DTM is German touring cars.

Yep. And, for example, BTCC is the British Touring Car Championship. Plenty of non-British cars compete in it, including Honda and GM.

[3XTR3M3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I had some related questions I had asked in a separate thread, but no one answered so I went and researched it a little. This quote, taken from wikipedia, basically confirmed what I suspected:



That is to say, DTM cars are not production-based cars at all. This is in stark contrast, BTW, to the M3 GTE/GT2 cars used in Le Mans and American LeMans respectively. Those start life as "production" M3s, with their body shells plucked right from the production line (though they then get built up into race cars and share very little with a road-going M3).

So, in reality, the changing of the guard coming up soon from E9x to F3x will have basically no effect whatsoever on BMW's DTM efforts. They are going to build a special racing chassis that, other than the roof, does note share a single bit of exterior with any production car - M3 or otherwise. In fact, further research indeed confirms the cars are based on purpose-built tubular spaceframes. In other words these cars are essentially the European kin to those used in our homegrown NASCAR series, albeit ones that are not stuck in the past and burdened by pushrod V8s and live axle rear ends.

What this all means is that the car will be easily updated to take on any F3x styling cues whenever BMW wishes. Maybe it's not just stickers like a NASCAR entry would typically get, but the changes needed to reflect a new model will nonetheless be minor since the car only barely ever looked anything like a production car to begin with. Now, these changes could happen soon after the E92 M3 ends production next year (i.e. they could take some cues from the new F30 3 series at that time), perhaps at the start of the car's second season in DTM. Alternatively they could just leave it alone until the F32 M3 shows its face in about 3 years time. Or, they could make a slow transition changing little things each year. But the bottom line is, this is going to be a chassis that is built to be used for many seasons (refined over time I'm sure), and it's lifespan will be completely uneffected to the lifespan of road going BMWs.

Wow, thanks a lot mkoesel! It's great to hear this wont be a year or two effort and the regs allow for longer development and racing. NOW I'm super excited!! Thanks again for the info.

[M3_CSL_E92]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So, it seems to me that GT500 cars are something of a hybrid between a full tube chassis like a DTM car of today and a typical Lemans GT car. In other words, saying the new 2012 DTM cars will be similar to a Super GT car or Lemans GT car is leaving a lot of room for just about anything. The two are actually pretty different. I will honestly be a little surprised if a new DTM car shares anything in the body or chassis with a production car, so to me it will probably be more like the Super GT car than the Lemans GT car. Just my opinion.

Yea GT500 cars are stupid quick.

Not saying they will be similar to either DTM or SuperGT. I´m saying they will all work together to create regulations so that the possibility of racing a car in DTM is also possible in SuperGT is possible.

I think that todays DTM cars will be a thing of the past.
They cost too much and they don´t share anything with the production model.

That´s the reason BMW chose not to enter. And with the new regs i´m sure the link will be much much stronger then before.

[mdosu]

this is NOT a GT2 car, correct?

[Dackelone]

I wonder why BMW wouldn't show their new DTM race at the Noris 'Ring next weekend? The Noris Ring is like Nascar's Daytona 500 over here. lol

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I wonder why BMW wouldn't show their new DTM race at the Noris 'Ring next weekend? The Noris Ring is like Nascar's Daytona 500 over here. lol

Because they want you to come to Munich in July.


Best regards,
south

[DTM-R13]

E90\92 or F30 Body???????????????????

[obbudelldugg]

first trials on German Racetrack Oschersleben with some Spypictures

Looks very very good.

See the photos.

Here the article vom German Yellowpress newspaper BILD

http://www.bild.de/regional/leipzig/...8220.bild.html

[mkoesel]

This car is going to be insane!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by C'sM3

I was searching the net yesterday for auto events in Munich for the 17th of July because I fly into Munich that day, for my European Delivery of my 1M coupe the next day!!!! I didn't even plan this but what an awesome surprise!!! I will definitely be attending and tacking pictures. Oh, I also have reservations at the Four Seasons Sheraton at the Olympic Park which is walking distance to the stadium.

IF you want to go to the race show at the Oylimpia Park... you can find more info here...

www.DTM.com




Dackel