[Q4P]

Originally Posted by RobBeck

And there you have your $30k in mods and prepped drag car. Now let's start addressing what we need to put all our newfound power to the pavement. Or better yet, start a new thread. Those looking for a modestly built 500-600whp street car can continue to follow along here. Lol.

Isn't that the point eventually for every modding platform? It will happen here, I am just thinking it's happening in this community in an odd way.

You have people who want moderate power - tune and basic bolt ons,

Then you have others who want massive amounts of power but are missing some basics and in turn making things difficult for themselves....

Last post of mine, just wanted to start a conversation with a different approach, curious what will become of this...?

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Nah, I just want moderately high power. There's obviously a point where there's too much involved (time/money) to proceed with a platform. If we can get to a moderately high power level without introducing a domino affect of problems/costs/efforts/time, I think most of us would be content. Enough said on that though, we will see what potential this mod brings to us. If it brings another 50+rwhp worth of fuel that is something to be very excited about.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Any tuner will a lot of experience tuning a wide range of engines will tell you that the benefits of DI are obvious. The solution isn't to downgrade to conventional EFI but rather understand what needs to be done to the DI system to achieve the power goal without sacrificing the things that DI does so well.

I dont necessarily disagree, but I think the point was instead of "waiting" for a solution, find a different solution that may potentially work and let someone else figure out the optimum solution.


***

To answer the other guy I dont think everyone here is seeking a 9 second drag car. I think most people are happy with a bump in power, some beg for a little more. After a little more, you are flirting with a lot of money and time.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Any tuner will a lot of experience tuning a wide range of engines will tell you that the benefits of DI are obvious. The solution isn't to downgrade to conventional EFI but rather understand what needs to be done to the DI system to achieve the power goal without sacrificing the things that DI does so well.

The advantages of DI are clearly not obvious. If it does anything, it lets you run slightly leaner downlow, up top the "advatages" of DI is moot as you require just the same amount of fuel to support power. At the point DI becomes useless and a pita to fuel properly.

Can you name one modified DI car that made oh lets say 300-350 over stock?

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Maybe this one shortly...

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Any tuner will a lot of experience tuning a wide range of engines will tell you that the benefits of DI are obvious. The solution isn't to downgrade to conventional EFI but rather understand what needs to be done to the DI system to achieve the power goal without sacrificing the things that DI does so well.

This reminds me of 20-30 years ago in EFI's early days when people would convert EFI cars back to carbs and distributors (not that I was even alive yet, at least for the very early years :P). They would do so, claiming that carbs make more power, are easier to tune, and more reliable. In hindsight, it is pretty obvious that EFI is a vastly superior solution to carbs on all of the above fronts, not to mention fuel economy, engine safety and longevity, they just simply hadn't invested the R&D into maximizing the potential of the new technology, though one could say that the R&D departments of the manufacturers and their suppliers at the time had also yet to fully explore the boundaries of this technology. Let's face it, DI isn't exactly disappearing any time soon, it's only going to become more frequently incorporated into engine designs going forward. And as more adopt, the method of implementation will become more standardized. As that happens, more money will be invested by the aftermarket into adopting methods of improving these more standardized setups.

As the technology matures, we may well look back on this particular implementation of DFI in our cars the way we look back on TBI/TPI, or CIS...it was a half-assed execution that produces results that are limited by the injection method, and are fixed when converted to proper, conventional EFI as we now know it today. But they didn't have the luxury of knowing what proper, conventional EFI was at the time they implemented it, nor did the aftermarket, so you make do. But as we move forward, and a more standard method of DFI shows up, the aftermarket will embrace it, and if the method utilized by BMW turns out to be one that history looks back on as a dud, I am sure that the aftermarket will be very quick to come up with ways to implement more standardized, upgraded DFI parts onto our cars, leveling the playing field with other platforms, and surpassing EFI capabilities once and for all.

But this might take a few years...and since almost everyone here seems to lease their cars, none of you care about that, now do you?

[Clap135]

No doubt as technology mature, so will DI, however DI has been out for a decade now, every platform trying to make big power, has failed on the fuel standpoint. This platform cracking 500whp on upgraded stock turbos is not exactly big power. It might be to the n54, but to cars as a whole its nothing special. Will we ever see a n54 with a turbo big enough to support 700-800whp? I am going to go with no, and if that does happen, maybe 1 out of the thousands of members on here will actually own the car.

Instead of dealing with this stuff, someone wanting massive power should simply run a DI/PI combo like lexus did right off the bat.

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Clap135

The advantages of DI are clearly not obvious. If it does anything, it lets you run slightly leaner downlow, up top the "advatages" of DI is moot as you require just the same amount of fuel to support power. At the point DI becomes useless and a pita to fuel properly.

Can you name one modified DI car that made oh lets say 300-350 over stock?

[AYF80]

Im hoping this is me...

[Clap135]

You realize that car has a secondary fuel system right?
It also has an upgraded hpfp along with other stuff. In essance shiv could do the same thing for about 600-700 bucks. Simply drop in another fuel pump into the tank. I wonder if thats his solution

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by HPF 335i #1

Im hoping this is me...

If HPF ever actually completes anything else for the N54.

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Clap135

No doubt as technology mature, so will DI, however DI has been out for a decade now, every platform trying to make big power, has failed on the fuel standpoint. This platform cracking 500whp on upgraded stock turbos is not exactly big power. It might be to the n54, but to cars as a whole its nothing special. Will we ever see a n54 with a turbo big enough to support 700-800whp? I am going to go with no, and if that does happen, maybe 1 out of the thousands of members on here will actually own the car.

Instead of dealing with this stuff, someone wanting massive power should simply run a DI/PI combo like lexus did right off the bat.

Well look at where the industry as a whole was a decade ago! Tuning solutions, at least ones that were attainable to the average joe, as a whole, were a JOKE! A decade ago, 600-700whp was monstrous power from a 2JZ, pretty much the most that anyone could squeeze out of it running gas and no nitrous, and the motor had to be built and running race gas, running a set of HKS 3071s that someone can now make 1,000whp on in his or her sleep. And even with that 600whp, though it might sound low, there were almost no other street cars at the time that could touch it. And IMO, it's been the rapid decrease in price and adoption of consumer electronics over the past decade that has helped foster this.

And in terms of waiting a decade and seeing progress...just for reference, Bosch D-Jetronic was introduced in 1967. In 1977, EFI was still just as witchcraft-y as it was in '67 to the general population. And even if you want to talk about when EFI first became more what we know it as today, with metered air and open/closed loop operation in the early 80s, look how long it took for the automotive aftermarket to really, really embrace it. People were still converting SN95s back to carbs to "make more power". Point is, it took a long ass time until people outside the walls of Bosch, Siemens, Delphi, etc, were really able to discover and reap the benefits of EFI.

[Clap135]

Also realize that usp car was a dyno queen and not reliable at all. You know what they are doing? Moving onto a auxi fuel system using port injection.

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You realize that car has a secondary fuel system right?
It also has an upgraded hpfp along with other stuff. In essance shiv could do the same thing for about 600-700 bucks. Simply drop in another fuel pump into the tank. I wonder if thats his solution

I was under the impression that it had a supplementary pump that fed an upgraded HPFP (that part I was quite aware of, they need it for power levels far below 600whp) that fed RS4 injectors. So yeah, an upgraded fuel system, but still a 100% DI solution. At least that's how I understood it to work.

If that's his solution, and he can get the valve to act properly...well alllllright

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Also realize that usp car was a dyno queen and not reliable at all. You know what they are doing? Moving onto a auxi fuel system using port injection.

Can't say I'm shocked that it's a dyno queen. But I do believe that there are a bunch of 500whp 2.0T cars running around reliably (I don't exactly keep tabs on that market though, lol), which is still the 300whp delta you asked for.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Can't say I'm shocked that it's a dyno queen. But I do believe that there are a bunch of 500whp 2.0T cars running around reliably (I don't exactly keep tabs on that market though, lol), which is still the 300whp delta you asked for.

it was a rough estimate, i think you missed the point. In order to make big reliable power, you need to go back to what works. That usp car went with a complete EFI system after trying for years to work with DI. The changed high pressure fuel pumps, injectors, low pressure pumps, added direct port meth, added 2nd fuel pumps and in the end said fuck this DI shit and went with what works lol. These little tricks work here and there "somewhat"
But we will wait and see.

[Mark313]

I like the discussion here. I learned something. Part 1 was just everyone saying OMGGG. Now I can't wait for part 3 even more now.

[JABM]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

This reminds me of 20-30 years ago in EFI's early days when people would convert EFI cars back to carbs and distributors (not that I was even alive yet, at least for the very early years :P). They would do so, claiming that carbs make more power, are easier to tune, and more reliable. In hindsight, it is pretty obvious that EFI is a vastly superior solution to carbs on all of the above fronts, not to mention fuel economy, engine safety and longevity, they just simply hadn't invested the R&D into maximizing the potential of the new technology, though one could say that the R&D departments of the manufacturers and their suppliers at the time had also yet to fully explore the boundaries of this technology. Let's face it, DI isn't exactly disappearing any time soon, it's only going to become more frequently incorporated into engine designs going forward. And as more adopt, the method of implementation will become more standardized. As that happens, more money will be invested by the aftermarket into adopting methods of improving these more standardized setups.

As the technology matures, we may well look back on this particular implementation of DFI in our cars the way we look back on TBI/TPI, or CIS...it was a half-assed execution that produces results that are limited by the injection method, and are fixed when converted to proper, conventional EFI as we now know it today. But they didn't have the luxury of knowing what proper, conventional EFI was at the time they implemented it, nor did the aftermarket, so you make do. But as we move forward, and a more standard method of DFI shows up, the aftermarket will embrace it, and if the method utilized by BMW turns out to be one that history looks back on as a dud, I am sure that the aftermarket will be very quick to come up with ways to implement more standardized, upgraded DFI parts onto our cars, leveling the playing field with other platforms, and surpassing EFI capabilities once and for all.

But this might take a few years...and since almost everyone here seems to lease their cars, none of you care about that, now do you?

There are STILL lots of people today who opt for carbs to make big power. More than one way to skin a cat...

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Clap135

it was a rough estimate, i think you missed the point. In order to make big reliable power, you need to go back to what works. That usp car went with a complete EFI system after trying for years to work with DI. The changed high pressure fuel pumps, injectors, low pressure pumps, added direct port meth, added 2nd fuel pumps and in the end said fuck this DI shit and went with what works lol. These little tricks work here and there "somewhat"
But we will wait and see.

Oh I agree, as things sit right now, DI has limits. But it is just a matter of time till more standardized pieces start to become proven, which can then be adapted to this platform. One interesting thing about our HPFPs that I think could be really advantageous over the VW/Audi systems is our HPFPs are chain driven (at least they appear to be in the pics/diagrams I've seen), unlike the VW/Audi units, which are directly connected to the camshafts. Seems like building a smaller gear and an appropriately shortened chain would be a very interesting experiment to increase the HPFP's flow. With a heavy hitting LPFP system behind it to keep it happy, and whatever changes BMW made to these latest round of pumps that seems to have kept them from failing en masse like the old ones, I would imagine that this could be done to increase flow/pressure, without having terrible pump reliability (even the upgraded APR pumps for the 2.0Ts need maintenance/replacement with some frequency)


Oh and as for that idea, Shiv or any other company should know that I just so happened to file a patent on it the second I posted it, so if you show up with that upgrade, I will come demanding royalties...which can be paid in the form of the HPFP upgrade and lifetime replacement parts for free.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JABM

There are STILL lots of people today who opt for carbs to make big power. More than one way to skin a cat...

Yes. But in that example you mention, there is a good way and there is a not-so-good way.

Shiv

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by JABM

There are STILL lots of people today who opt for carbs to make big power. More than one way to skin a cat...

Indeed...but just because I'm already successful with getting women doesn't mean that I wouldn't be more successful with a gold bar hanging from my zipper......




lolwut?

[Slidewayz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes. But in that example you mention, there is a good way and there is a not-so-good way.

Shiv

Hi Shiv,

Do you have an ETA on Part III ? (sorry if this was already answered)