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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > How much power will ASR turbo upgrade make today?



View Poll Results: How much power will ASR turbo upgrade make on dynojet?
481+ 64 40.25%
461-480 35 22.01%
441-460 37 23.27%
421-440 13 8.18%
415-420 (same as stock turbos - FAIL) 10 6.29%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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      04-05-2009, 11:22 PM   #89
Nikolas
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There is absolutly nothing wrong with a PB compared to a flash. Bob I am sorry but you really sound clueless here. Shiv has plenty of experience with both. Vishnu's Subaru and Mitsubishi tunes are flashes. There are many advantages to PB over flash especially with modern day ECU's that are as complex as the 335's. Just look at the number of updates that are released on these ECU's. Personally I would prefer a PB with the 335.
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      04-05-2009, 11:27 PM   #90
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Sorry Mr. Long, you just got cut SHORT!
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      04-05-2009, 11:32 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Long View Post
My car with just bolt ons and race gas made ~410 whp.

Well I think when you spend top dollar for a turbo kit it should look and utilize the majority of the OEM system which the piggyback is not, piggybacks are kind of old fashioned. Also a inherent side effect of a piggybacks as is that it only alters or tries to simulate the signal the ECU sees and never changes the actual programming, just attempts to manipulate it. The manipulation can only go so far as most piggybacks alter just one (at most a handful) of signals at certain RPM points and not necessarily the array of load maps the ECU relies on. With today’s ECU’s, signal modifications confuse the ECU’s learning mode often resulting in poor drivability. Also, direct changes in one signal may also trigger indirect changes elsewhere which can lead to undesired consequences. If you have the technical ability to properly adjust the factory ECU, there is no reason to falsify its input signals with a piggyback.
what tune are you running?
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      04-05-2009, 11:35 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas View Post
. Shiv has plenty of experience with both. Vishnu's Subaru and Mitsubishi tunes are flashes. There are many advantages to PB over flash especially with modern day ECU's that are as complex as the 335's.
Very true, he does. Both the Subaru and Mitsubishi tunes were piggybacks before they were flashes. The piggybacks #1 benefit is relatively little R&D required. You can take a piggyback and adapt it to any car in a matter of days once you know what you're doing. You can also keep reinventing it every few months to always have something hot to sell customers. That is why these vendors like them so.

Just don't confuse easy to bring to market profitable piggybacks for true integrated tuning. As soon as flash hardware became available, and helped by competitors who undercut the price points with a better quality tune, the Vishnu piggybacks in both Subaru and Mitsubishi applications dried up.

None of this really has anything to do with the turbo upgrade though so lets keep it on topic. A piggyback system is good enough for dyno numbers type tuning.
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      04-05-2009, 11:38 PM   #93
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Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Long View Post
No that is not why I am here. I see there is a huge folllowing on here for Shiv and there is nothing wrong with that, but please take time to think outside the box if you have any knowledge on turbo kits and not just follow the leader.

I understand I go against the grain here and I do not follow the status quo, but it is my opinnion, it doesn't make it wrong. Also if you had something of value of the tech source then maybe you could keep it on topic and stop making off topic and idiotic posts. Obviously you have nothing to offer so please stay out of the thead. Maybe someone besides Shiv (the owner and seller of a piggyback) that would like to tell me why a piggyback over a full controlling flash?

Note: I am all for the success of this turbo kit and I do appreciate the ground breaking event that Shiv and Amid are putting towards this. It can only grow from here. Please do not read too much into my posts and it may sound a little pessimistic but its really not meant in that manner; I thought this was a public forum to present any opinnions and ideas or thoughts???
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      04-05-2009, 11:49 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runningman View Post
Very true, he does. Both the Subaru and Mitsubishi tunes were piggybacks before they were flashes. The piggybacks #1 benefit is relatively little R&D required. You can take a piggyback and adapt it to any car in a matter of days once you know what you're doing. You can also keep reinventing it every few months to always have something hot to sell customers. That is why these vendors like them so.

Just don't confuse easy to bring to market profitable piggybacks for true integrated tuning. As soon as flash hardware became available, and helped by competitors who undercut the price points with a better quality tune, the Vishnu piggybacks in both Subaru and Mitsubishi applications dried up.

None of this really has anything to do with the turbo upgrade though so lets keep it on topic. A piggyback system is good enough for dyno numbers type tuning.
Sorry to continue - but there is no confusion. The biggest problem for the end user with flashes is the lack of an interface. Our ECU's are the classic example. Everytime you get an update - flash is wiped out (how many updates have been released so far?). Then what - travel to the tuner for a reflash. What a PIA. In the three years I had my STI I never had an ECU update so the flash was a none issue. Clearly PB's have done a lot more than just produced good dyno numbers. In fact all the fastest performance numbers have been produced by PB's and not flashes on the 335 so far.
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      04-06-2009, 12:11 AM   #95
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Regardless of it's a flash or piggyback, what matters is who is on the other end programming it. Any idiot making a flash can blow up your motor just as easily.

Even I know the ingredients to making power (fuel, ignition, timing), hell I can even have the recipe (whatever flavor of programming you like), but that doesn't make me a chef.

I've seen the Vishnu folks make power in the suby and mitsu worlds, BMW isn't that different.

I eagerly await for more developments and updates and encourage those makng progress. I would also encourage everyone else to to the same (or if your able, push the ball forward for the N54 family).

Junk
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      04-06-2009, 10:58 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Long View Post
425 WHP with pump gas?

My car with just bolt ons and race gas made ~410 whp.

So it is hard for me to justify to buy a turbo kit that will only add me another ~20whp for 8-10k (which is my assumption of ur price).

Also isnt the setup for the 135i and 335i different in the way the engine bay is setup in relation to fitment?? Any reason u guys didnt do more homework for a new fuel pump which is entirely needed to make big power??

also I am assuming u found the stock fuel system max's out at 465-470whp so that is the roof for this turbo kit with race or pump??
Stock fuel pump is good for 3000psi, *when* they werk
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      04-06-2009, 11:09 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Long View Post
Is this your first turbo'd car?
Here is a short list along with the "piggies" or fuel controlers used. Obviously the Haltech was the most advanced, becuase it a whole different ball game when you add a turbo to a NA. And it isnt fun either

1st Turbo was a 95 Supra TT (NONE)
2nd Turbo was a 93 RX-7 TT (BLITZ)
3rd Turbo was a 98 Eclipse GSX (APEXi AFC-R)
4th Turbo was a 01 Integra Type-r (Haltech)
5th Turbo was a 01 Audi A4 (None)
6th Turbo is a 07 BMW E90 335i (AA Processor, Procede V3, JB3, CP-E Standback 2)
7th Turbo is a 08 BMW E82 135i (AA Processor, Procede V3, JB3, CP-E Standback 2)
8th Turbo is a 09 BMW E82 135i (AA Processor, Procede V3, JB3, CP-E Standback 2)


This is all i can remember off the top of my head right now, out of the 35 vehicles i've had in my (12) years of driving, not including sportbikes
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      04-06-2009, 11:16 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverBoostin1 View Post
Stock fuel pump is good for 3000psi, *when* they werk
sad but true
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      04-06-2009, 12:36 PM   #99
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I think a flash is superior.

I also think a well tuned complex piggyback is perfectly adequate.

A flash just allows you to control much more, a short list: lift, duration, limitless timing control, the way adaptation works, how much knock sensor noise to retard timing, boost/throttle behavior on hard shifts, individual gear based torque limits, redline, throttle closure behavior related to boost control, limitless control of boost at any rpm without limps, and more.

Though, I feel like the piggys we have today are safe and adequate, and control more than one or two things.
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      04-06-2009, 12:48 PM   #100
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I think after everything is dailed in and fine tuned, the ASR kit will make the same race gas numbers except on pump and the race gas numbers will be over 500rwhp
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      04-06-2009, 01:03 PM   #101
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Just as long as we are on this whole reflash vs. piggyback tangent, here's the real story:

Yes, a reflash can control things that our PROcede can't (at this time, at least). Such as:
-Rev limit
-knock filtering
-throttle by wire mapping
-vanos mapping

That's about it.

-The rev limit adjustment is meaningless unless you build your engine to safety support more revs.
-The knock filtering adjustment is of no advantage since the factory knock control system works so well.
-Throttle by wire mapping is of no relevance either since the factory mapping is so nice. The fact that we are able to make 500bhp and have the car be perfectly drivable at partial throttle doesn't have me scrambling to remap the throttle tables.
-The Vanos mapping is also of no real significance. We've already had the PROcede adjust that back when we were developing the v3 PnP harness. We managed to pick up no power.

In conclusion, there isn't merit in changing things just so you can say that they have been changed. Most of the time, you are only going to make it worse.

As for things that the PROcede can do that reflashes won't do:
-Implement safety systems for meth
-Implement real-time user map switching and valet modes
-Read/clear codes
-Allow for real-time tuning (you tuners will know that having to do a 15 min flash after every single change you do isn't conducive to good tuning).
-Be completely invisible to all diagnostics
-Sidestep the whole torque management issue that is plaguing reflash tuners
-Implement active dash displays

Unlike the first list, I think all these advantages are useful to the end user. Not just on paper.

Shiv
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      04-06-2009, 01:18 PM   #102
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Any plans for fuel system upgrades to get more power out of this setup?

Some of the Audi guys are having good luck modifying the stock pumps to push more fuel, or are the injectors the limit rather than fuel flow?
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      04-06-2009, 01:49 PM   #103
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interesting. How far along is asr with finding a solution for the fuel problem?
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      04-06-2009, 01:59 PM   #104
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Quote:
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interesting. How far along is asr with finding a solution for the fuel problem?
I don't think limiting power on the stock fuel system to 460whp is much of a problem. Changing out injectors and/or HPFP is going to be a lot more of an issue than simply adding a methanol injection system. Not only will it provide the fuel necessary to support 500whp, it will also help with charge cooling and knock suppression. I'd rather do that than invest $1500-2500 in replacement fuel system components.

Shiv
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      04-06-2009, 03:52 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I don't think limiting power on the stock fuel system to 460whp is much of a problem. Changing out injectors and/or HPFP is going to be a lot more of an issue than simply adding a methanol injection system. Not only will it provide the fuel necessary to support 500whp, it will also help with charge cooling and knock suppression. I'd rather do that than invest $1500-2500 in replacement fuel system components.

Shiv
I thought someone in this thread said they have a custom fuel kit. Is this still in development and any info on the possibilities for the HPFP?? So i am assuming you are just tunning their kit now for the stock HPFP and everntually tunning their custom kit once they are done with it??



(I am passed the flash/piggyback arguement)
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      04-06-2009, 04:38 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Long View Post
I thought someone in this thread said they have a custom fuel kit. Is this still in development and any info on the possibilities for the HPFP?? So i am assuming you are just tunning their kit now for the stock HPFP and everntually tunning their custom kit once they are done with it??



(I am passed the flash/piggyback arguement)
ASR mentioned the fuel system in their thread (I believe post 1):

"Then shortly thereafter with all the bolt on's including custom fuel system"

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191848
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